I need to rant and it won't be pretty but I don't care!

[jdhand]

Well I have been watching this thread and have a comment or two. First of all I went to the Big Perry Sale in Perry, Georgia this weekend. It is a huge draft horse, driving horse and carriage auction. I saw neglected horses of all kinds. From draft to Mini. There were beautiful well kept, well broke to drive and ride mule, draft horses, donkeys and minis. There were also neglected, abused malnurished animals. I purchased a driving pony from a man that was underweight and had bite marks all over its back with the hair trying to grow back. I didn't need the pony, but it needed me. Neglect and Abuse are in everything. Their are good people who are good parents and then there are people who are terrible parents. The world is full of all kinds of people. I am selective about where my horses go and it isn't about what they cost, it is about who buys them. I have paid as little as $300.00 for a mini and as much as $4000.00. I love them all. Some of the less expensive ones had good lives and some were neglected. However some of the expensive ones were underfed and or mistreated. All we can do is hope and pray the morals of the human race improve, because until it does there will be neglected, children, animals and elderly people.

 

[Lauralee]

I understand exactly what Lisa Ruff N Tuff said.

It does not matter how cheap or how expensive you sell a horse. ALL of them run the risk of ending up in a neglectful situation.

Think of the rich, eccentric, "collector" type that accumulates a huge herd and then does not "see" the poor condition of the horses....

So the sale price of the horse does not necesarily guarantee that the horse won't end up in rescue.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I understand exactly what Lisa Ruff N Tuff said.

It does not matter how cheap or how expensive you sell a horse. ALL of them run the risk of ending up in a neglectful situation.

Think of the rich, eccentric, "collector" type that accumulates a huge herd and then does not "see" the poor condition of the horses....

So the sale price of the horse does not necesarily guarantee that the horse won't end up in rescue.

YES that is EXACTLY what I was saying :aktion033: I was attempting to multi task at the time and post while working and on the phone.. not very good at that but yes Lauralee thanks so much for saying what I meant in a way that is understandable

:

 

[littlearab]

:aktion033: minimor,

I agree 100%!!

:

 

[tifflunn]

Being new to minis I felt there was a lack of education to the new consumer (myself) - I did receive the free handout from the different assocaitions when I asked for them- but something a little more comprehensive with them would have helped there could have been a sketch as to the proper confirmation and maybe a little blurb on confirmation faults or things to be aware of when purchasing your first mini, with the first handout.

There is a lot of information on the net but not everyone has access to it- and the first place you are going to go are the different associations and clubs to get bonafide info. I have only attended a very few shows- so I have no idea if the same happens else where- but as I was showing there was the general public standing around watching the shows- alot of them where very intrested in the little guys- I noticed that there were alot of questions from the watchers and there was really no one around to answer them other than walking over to the participants of the show. I saw a few hesitate as it was busy and just walk away- without getting to ask there questions- it would be nice along with each show that there was a general brouchure to be placed around with general info- so the general public could understand what they were watching- show are probably one of our biggest promotional times as a breed. It would not help the over all price but it wold be a start in the overall problem.

Tiffany

 

[kaykay]

tiff you bring up a good point. I know a bit back i went to a mini county show to watch (found out too late to enter) A newer person i have been helping was there showing. People flooded her with questions she she hollered for me to come over. I was surrounded for about an hour answering questions and handing out the cmhr website and my own website. To every person there I recommended to all of them to buy a gelding for their first horse.

Even at the ohio world show I helped some new people to minis answering their questions inviting them to my stalls etc. I have been accussed of being too helpful by many people. But you know I remember being new and having all those questions and how lucky i was that people stopped to answer them. Also im a big beliver in Karma

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

... To every person there I recommended to all of them to buy a gelding for their first horse.

:worshippy:

:

 

[capall beag]

The price you buy and sell a horse for has NOTHING to do with it.

I think some of the very best homes are pet homes, when the horse is treated as a loved pet not a money maker.

IMO it is the attitude of the owner/seller that can create the misery for the animal.

If the horse is seen solely as money maker then ALL decisions are based on the $$$.

IMO a living, breathing animal that is seen solely as a money maker their wellbeing is rarely taken into consideration UNLESS it is equally beneficial to the owner.

I don't think it matters if you sell a horse for $1 or $10,000 + if you care where it ends up you will do all you can to ensure it goes to a good home.

Dumping excess animals at an auction is not something a caring owner does. Breeding more when you cannot sell what you have and cannot keep them is irresponsible breeding and from a logical point of view poor business practice.

I think this makes sense!

 

[Greystone]

Just a thought having an interest in marketing. Some sellers who are obviously not selling dirt cheap use "need to downsize" as a way for people to think the price is being cut. The same way they use "changing breeding direction" or "health problems" or "Buckeroo bloodlines". I am trying to sell right now a pup I got as payment for a breeding and I am using "pick of the litter" in my advertising.

I personally will be done with breeding this year and probably will never get to sell. I started with a stallion, bought 2 mares, had 2 babies from one and plan on gelding the stallion and 2 year old colt I had. I thought my 3 girls were pregnant for this year but even after testing I am clueless. The whole birthing/selling thing I think is just not in the cards for me with horses.

 

[Danielle_E.]

I understand what many of you are saying and agree somewhat that pricing doesn’t always means that the very low priced minis always end up in less than stellar situation BUT if you pay lets say $1500 and up for a mini the individual may think twice about allowing the animal to be sold at rock bottom prices. Some purebred dogs sell for more than these minis that I see at low end auctions or via brokers!!!

I will give you some examples and these are taken from first hand knowledge. Large breeder, breeds quite a number of minis each year, sells quite a few but still not enough. She/he doesn’t wish to “keep†more than a certain number and says “I need to get my numbers down because I have ?? number of mares confirmed in foal for next year, I have way too many.... bringing them to *** auction this weekendâ€. Minis go through the auction, some at ridiculously low prices. Breeder doesn’t put a reserve on them as she/he just wants her/his numbers down. Prices are so low that some end up with “brokersâ€. Broker advertises them, can’t sell them, takes them back to auction for a quick turnaround and hopefully to make money but if not will sell to whoever (meat dealer, another broker).

This above scenario doesn’t just happen with the larger breeders, I have seen the same scenario with smaller breeders. To me personally, these kind of breeders could eventually be the downfall of this breed and many of these breeders are indeed “breeding†more “breeders†with this kind of mentality. Some people may very well go to these low end auctions and purchase a stallion and some mares and voila, they think they are in “business†and decide to start breeding these animals to make some money, etc. and in effect what happens, the cycle continues and they in turn end up doing the same thing - bringing their unwanted animals to low end auctions when they are unable to sell quickly enough. This kind of scenario is what is bringing the market to where it is going to end up and if we don’t “educate†people it could very well be the downfall of the breed for awhile.

What do we do with these kind of breeders? I don’t have the answer but perhaps you do? All I know is that a few years ago there were no minis with the type of “broker†who buys an animal at a low end auction one week and sells it to whatever fate the next week and there certainly weren’t any in the kills pens. The numbers are going up in both instances and their must be a way to stop this madness. The breed doesn’t deserve this, the “respectful†and “decent†breeders everywhere don’t deserve to have their “reputation†as “miniature horse breeders†given a black eye by joe public.

A few of you have said that your mares aren’t bred for next year, maybe because you haven’t sold the ones you have now or perhaps you think it is a good idea that the mares have some time off. I don’t know of any other breed where mares will be expected to produce a foal each and every year unless your talking the PMU industry and look what has happened in that business... many extra horses going through the kill pens because there isn’t enough people to buy them, even at the low prices they have been asking and the “owner†of the PMU farm has no use for the “by-product†or the industry has slowed down considerably.

Maybe I am just a “worry-wart†but when I see minis in these situations alarm bells start to ring and I am not one to hide my head in the sand and say “well it’s not in my backyard, doesn’t affect me personallyâ€. As a breeder, I think it should be something that collectively we try and put an end to or to minimize at least. How? I don’t have the answer....yet, but I am working on it by at least acknowledging that the problem exists and it’s not going to go away any time soon if we continue down this destructive path.

 

[Marty]

Capall Beag has said my feelings exactly.

I don't mind sitting on any horse I have for sale rather than to put his price down so low to move him out. Not my style, nor my attitude. However, sometimes I will hit on just the right buyer and then I will be motivated to negotiate price for that good loving home, and yes, good homes are still out there. Sometimes you just have to bide your time and that good owner will eventually show up. Sure I could use the money, and of course I'd like to make a sale, but I'm not going to lower my standards to do it and if someone thinks I should, bite me.

I do care very much where my horses end up. I do ask and check out references. If people don't like that, tuff, then they can't buy my horse if they can't give me a reference, perferably from a vet. It's more important to me to carefully place a horse where he/she will be loved and treated as a family member. I could have sold a horse I have for sale 20 times over by now if I didn't care where he went and what his future would be. Only one person so far contacted me that would have been a wonderful owner for him, but she did end up selecting another horse over him.

And yes, don't kid yourselves, there are mini mills all over the place and under our noses. They'll breed in large proportions and then end up over crowded and bring them to aution to disperse of them any way they can. But then, those same people will continue to breed over and over again. Those poor mares.........those poor foals........

Vicious cycle.

 

[HGFarm]

This does not just happen in the Mini world- I see ads for POA's, QH's etc.... reading the same way. Must make room for new foals- too many stallions, no room, etc....

Our friend quit breeding POAs because there just doesnt seem to be a market here, and she gelded her stallion. He is a great gelding (he was a terrific stallion too).

I keep my program small, and have had no problems selling any of the foals. In fact, my waiting list is longer than the amount of foals I will be having.

 

[Little Wee Horse Farm]

Tiffany -- Yes, the idea of a person at shows to give information to newbies/public & to answer questions is a good one, but the reality is those who put on shows are so strapped for help that it seems that it would be impossible to do such a thing. Most show staffers are doing multiple jobs PLUS showing their own horses.

Long ago, when I first discovered minis, I couldn't even find one to put my hands on. I couldn't find any breeders, any information, any shows. There also was NO internet. (imagine that!)

As far as a brochure to be given out at shows with info etc., that costs plenty & requires time & talent, all of which are stretched to the max by show staffers & sponsors.

Your ideas are good ones, I believe, but difficult to put into practice. In fact, when I was manager of my first show (and we did this particular thing for a few years), we'd have the announcer name each class as it came up, but we'd also have a script for him to read about what the judge was looking for in that class. Had a lot of positive comments about that from the audience. It was worth the time. We have more than 80 classes.

We must all, however, remember that good customers/owners are hard to find. We hope those who are interested are truly good people & in the end that's all we can do. As has been said, pricing them high doesn't guarantee a good home. Pricing them low doesn't mean a bad home. It's up to us to judge personalities of buyers & boy, that's tuff!

And breeding hundreds and selling them for pennies in the end? Good grief! That's a nightmare to me! :nono:

 

[capall beag]

Although I commend you Danielle for your passion on this subject, I think it is impossible to change the 'type' mentioned.

IMO the only way to do my part is NOT buy from them, sell from them, even at the auctions.

The breeder 'type' you speak of DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR HORSES, they are a commodity PLAIN & SIMPLE. NExt year it might be dogs, cats, sheep who knows they will follow the $$$

What these breeders are doing doesn't make sense, they are not really making much money at all......so I don't think they will stay in the business for long.

If the demand for this low end mini dries up they will move on.

In the meantime, of course, it is sad to see these little animals suffer but if we 'rescue' all these little minis at the auction we are helping encourage it.

All that said, if I was at an auction and I saw a malnourished, depressed little mini I would probably buy it! At least I would make a difference in that animals life!

So I guess it isn't as simple as I have stated

:

 

[Margaret]

I think we have to address this as individuels and access what is important to us..

I once had the opportunity to visit a mini mill, and it was a very disheartening experience. :no:

75 plus mini horses kept in small confinement, with great emphisis on breeding and selling.

I set it in my mind that if I could not offer a decent type of living for each and every horse I owned, than it was not worth the investment..

So the perfect number for me is 3, and this way every horse gets good attention, and lots space to roam. Things dont tend to get overwhelming,... even if a family emergency happens, or a family vacation.

:

With only three minis, its an "easy feed" for a friend to do.

My two mares are pregnant this year, but I have never had problems selling my babies. But when I do, you can bet- I will stop the breeding.

:

My emphisis has always been on finding good homes, that have the proper means to raise, love and care for a miniature horse.

:

Price has always been negotiable to some degree.

:saludando: Mary

 

[tifflunn]

Tiffany -- Yes, the idea of a person at shows to give information to newbies/public & to answer questions is a good one, but the reality is those who put on shows are so strapped for help that it seems that it would be impossible to do such a thing. Most show staffers are doing multiple jobs PLUS showing their own horses.

Long ago, when I first discovered minis, I couldn't even find one to put my hands on. I couldn't find any breeders, any information, any shows. There also was NO internet. (imagine that!)

As far as a brochure to be given out at shows with info etc., that costs plenty & requires time & talent, all of which are stretched to the max by show staffers & sponsors.

Your ideas are good ones, I believe, but difficult to put into practice. In fact, when I was manager of my first show (and we did this particular thing for a few years), we'd have the announcer name each class as it came up, but we'd also have a script for him to read about what the judge was looking for in that class. Had a lot of positive comments about that from the audience. It was worth the time. We have more than 80 classes.

We must all, however, remember that good customers/owners are hard to find. We hope those who are interested are truly good people & in the end that's all we can do. As has been said, pricing them high doesn't guarantee a good home. Pricing them low doesn't mean a bad home. It's up to us to judge personalities of buyers & boy, that's tuff!

And breeding hundreds and selling them for pennies in the end? Good grief! That's a nightmare to me! :nono:

Yep- The cost is a stumbling block

: -and is an issue- the only way I can think of to defray the cost of actually putting together a brochure would be that the main registeries could themselves get together an informational brochure that could be downloaded and printed off of there web sites at the different ends and then coppied locally and then handed out.

I do like the anouncing before each class- that would help :bgrin

 

[kaykay]

just an fyi both registeries i believe do have brochures that they will send you to hand out at events.