Interesting Driving lesson today

[Marsha Cassada]

Tipsey, my new shetland mare, and I went for a driving lesson today. She has been doing well ground driving and needs more advanced introduction to the cart. I am not comfortable with this step with her, as she is larger than the miniatures I've worked with before, and lively.

The woman has been out of the show circuit for about 8 years due to macular disease, but is an absolute gem about animals and their training. She wondered why I did not have the overcheck on my harness and I said I haven't ever used it on Tipsey and there was lots of discussion among driving folk about its use.

Her explanation for it was to teach the horse to carry his head properly; he learned his parameters for himself by means of the overcheck. The way she explained it seemed so sensible, that now I am confused about whether to use it or not. She said the side check did not offer the same support for a horse as an overcheck.

Another problem, is the myler bit I'm using has no place to attach a check. Tipsey is very satisfied with it and I really don't want to change bits.

She thought Tipsey held her head too low, too horizontal. But to me, walking beside with the lead rope, it looked as though she held her head that way to faciliatate pulling. This is pretty new to her and she is trying to figure out how to use her body to do the work. Using her body properly will come with more training and experience, is my hope.

I was not going to introduce the check until Tipsey was comfortable working in harness; I know she will need it if we compete so she must become accustomed to it.

Hope I have explained myself adequately.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Her explanation for it was to teach the horse to carry his head properly; he learned his parameters for himself by means of the overcheck. The way she explained it seemed so sensible, that now I am confused about whether to use it or not. She said the side check did not offer the same support for a horse as an overcheck. ...

It's basically a philosophical difference- do you want the horse learning parameters and limits and a set frame, or do you want her learning to use her body? Do you want her getting her support from a check or from your hands? I personally prefer the horse to take all their instruction from my hands as this allows me to set a finished horse wherever I want him (meaning from a single pleasure frame to WCP to driven dressage) simply by changing how I ask him to come to the bit. It frustrates me when I drive a horse who's been exclusively check-trained as they hold a headset all right...no matter what I ask them to do! It's practically impossible with some former show animals to get them to stretch down as the overcheck did exactly what the instructor you spoke with said it would do- it taught the horse the parameters they can move within. It literally never occurs to them to try varying their posture and sometimes they think the world is going to end the first time they do! Same with some horses who have been taught never, ever to canter even in the round pen. Some of this depends on the way the check was used in training but I've seen more than a few horses that went as I've described and that's a few more than I want to drive myself.

It's a very personal choice however. I PERSONALLY (and speaking only for myself) get most of my enjoyment out of watching my horses physically develop over time. I want to watch their toplines muscle up, their necks turn right-side up, watch them learn to track up and build the muscle in their rears...that's what I enjoy. I can't do that if my horse is wearing an overcheck as the overcheck inhibits the sort of gymnastic, stretchy movements that build the topline so for me it's counter-intuitive. For someone whose goal is a fine-harness animal who will win in Single Pleasure, the training is very different and an overcheck may work nicely to teach them to be upheaded and hot. To each their own!

Actually, I think I can simplify the philosophy even more. I wish to teach my horses to expand in all ways- stretch the topline, stretch their minds, stretch their boundaries and abilities as I seek to stretch my own. That's where I get my pleasure. I (again, personally) see the check as teaching them to constrain themselves. Hold the frame, hold the position, don't ever vary or move. On an emotional level I have a problem with that, like trying to wriggle into a straight-jacket! It just seems wrong to me. But not every horse is the same any more than every person is, and some of them actively like the security of a snug check. I suppose it depends on how they are driven as well; if the driver is unable to offer proper support through the reins, it's probably good the horse can count on the check to tell them where to be.

She thought Tipsey held her head too low, too horizontal. But to me, walking beside with the lead rope, it looked as though she held her head that way to faciliatate pulling. This is pretty new to her and she is trying to figure out how to use her body to do the work. Using her body properly will come with more training and experience, is my hope.

It will. My question would be, "Too low for what?" For a show ring? She's not IN a show ring, and nobody is judging her at this point. She's just a youngster and she's trying to figure out something new and difficult. As you guessed, she's putting her head down to pull because that's how an unmuscled horse can best move the load. As she gains strength and experience her head will come up and you as the driver can show her how to do that through the reins and offer her guidance and support in elevating her frame appropriately. It is certainly possible to ask a horse to do that from the start but there is absolutely no harm in taking the slower road and letting her figure it out a bit first. She'll be fine!

Leia

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Thanks for responding, Leia.

I have always considered this woman as on a pinnacle. What I am realizing now, is the more educated I become in horsemanship, the more I have my own ideas about training. I tried to open my mind to her ideas, think about my own goals, and see what works for me. Before, I would have taken as gospel everything she told me. Now I'm beginning to think for myself.

She is an excellent mentor for me, as she is careful and deliberate in her progress and I tend to get impatient--wanting to trot before I have a good, disciplined walk.

So much to learn, and our patient horses have to put up with it!

 

[Margo_C-T]

What driving 'world' was this woman from, Marsha? Sounds like breed ring driving...I say this because I increasingly have discovered what a VAST difference there is between most, if not ALL, BREED show ring driving and that of ADS/ADS-type...that is, driving for a safe and pleasurable drive, out in the world OR in a ring...and as I learned, I realized that what I believe in tends to in no way 'fall in line' with most BREED ring practices and what is 'desired'there.

Why would your mare 'need' to have a higher head? When her training can proceed as Leia has described, she will with time and patience, most likely raise her leverage arm(head & neck)to a proper balance point for HER, w/ nary a check,ESP. NOT an overcheck(allowed only in very few instances in ADS circumstances, BTW.) I NEVER liked overchecks, though was told to use one when I began showing Miniatures, and did, BRIEFLY. They may have their place w/ on-the-track harness horses(to keep the nose 'up and out' and keep the breathing passages as open as possible?...)but otherwise??NO, IMO. (I do have and still occasionally use a well-adjusted sidecheck, to prevent grass grabbing!)

I also don't like or use 'headsets', elastic or not. Such things,and much more, are apparently quite common in 'training' toward certain breed rings, esp. those involving 'high action' breeds/classes. IMO, such things, esp. in concert w/ sometimes-harsh bits, FORCE a horse into a false frame, and the horse may NEVER thereafter be willing to even attempt to learn to really 'use itself' as Leia has well-described. The horse becomes well INTIMIDATED into staying 'rigidly' in that frame...after all, what has the horse been able to do BUT comply when they are 'trapped' between a bit that can subject them to vicious pain if they 'argue' with it, and a check that in effect, can have similar action, if 'challenged'??

This sort of 'training'? might suit you if all you EVER plan to do w/ your driving horse is go round and round a ring, 'looking fancy'...but I have come to strongly believe that it falls far short if you wish to produce/have an actual 'driving horse' that you can enjoy in most/all driving situations, AND which the horse can also enjoy being!

I suggest taking it slow, taking your time, following principles such as Leia outlined...and don't worry about living up to expectations tht are based on an entirely different set of 'requirements'...esp. if what you want to end up with is a reliable, enjoyable driving animal.JMHO.

Margo

 

[splash's mom]

It's basically a philosophical difference- do you want the horse learning parameters and limits and a set frame, or do you want her learning to use her body? Do you want her getting her support from a check or from your hands? I personally prefer the horse to take all their instruction from my hands as this allows me to set a finished horse wherever I want him (meaning from a single pleasure frame to WCP to driven dressage) simply by changing how I ask him to come to the bit. It frustrates me when I drive a horse who's been exclusively check-trained as they hold a headset all right...no matter what I ask them to do! It's practically impossible with some former show animals to get them to stretch down as the overcheck did exactly what the instructor you spoke with said it would do- it taught the horse the parameters they can move within. It literally never occurs to them to try varying their posture and sometimes they think the world is going to end the first time they do! Same with some horses who have been taught never, ever to canter even in the round pen. Some of this depends on the way the check was used in training but I've seen more than a few horses that went as I've described and that's a few more than I want to drive myself.

It's a very personal choice however. I PERSONALLY (and speaking only for myself) get most of my enjoyment out of watching my horses physically develop over time. I want to watch their toplines muscle up, their necks turn right-side up, watch them learn to track up and build the muscle in their rears...that's what I enjoy. I can't do that if my horse is wearing an overcheck as the overcheck inhibits the sort of gymnastic, stretchy movements that build the topline so for me it's counter-intuitive. For someone whose goal is a fine-harness animal who will win in Single Pleasure, the training is very different and an overcheck may work nicely to teach them to be upheaded and hot. To each their own!

Actually, I think I can simplify the philosophy even more. I wish to teach my horses to expand in all ways- stretch the topline, stretch their minds, stretch their boundaries and abilities as I seek to stretch my own. That's where I get my pleasure. I (again, personally) see the check as teaching them to constrain themselves. Hold the frame, hold the position, don't ever vary or move. On an emotional level I have a problem with that, like trying to wriggle into a straight-jacket! It just seems wrong to me. But not every horse is the same any more than every person is, and some of them actively like the security of a snug check. I suppose it depends on how they are driven as well; if the driver is unable to offer proper support through the reins, it's probably good the horse can count on the check to tell them where to be.

It will. My question would be, "Too low for what?" For a show ring? She's not IN a show ring, and nobody is judging her at this point. She's just a youngster and she's trying to figure out something new and difficult. As you guessed, she's putting her head down to pull because that's how an unmuscled horse can best move the load. As she gains strength and experience her head will come up and you as the driver can show her how to do that through the reins and offer her guidance and support in elevating her frame appropriately. It is certainly possible to ask a horse to do that from the start but there is absolutely no harm in taking the slower road and letting her figure it out a bit first. She'll be fine!

Leia

AMEN