is anyone interested in driving from a PNH or Nate Bowers point of view?

[Knottymare]

I've gone through the lower levels of his program with my full sized paint mare. I got it for free on craigslist and I'm glad I had nothing invested. All it managed to do was confuse my mare, and that's how the majority of horses I've seen react to it. Granted, this may be because people think that one trainer is god (this seems to be the norm with NH) and refuse to believe that they can do wrong.

I will give him an once of credit, in that if his program actually worked I never would have been as interested in training horses as I am now.

Michelle, you have a great deal of natural instinct and a very calm personality. You and Spanky are a great team. I really enjoyed watching you together. I hope we'll get together again soon!

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

Michelle, you have a great deal of natural instinct and a very calm personality. You and Spanky are a great team. I really enjoyed watching you together. I hope we'll get together again soon!

Thanks

I can't take to much credit, I think he'd be good with anyone. I hope we can too, with me moving him to this new place it should make his training go much smoother. Hoping to have him going well by mid January

 

[Knottymare]

Thanks

I can't take to much credit, I think he'd be good with anyone. I hope we can too, with me moving him to this new place it should make his training go much smoother. Hoping to have him going well by mid January

That should be no problem. Are you planning on gelding him soon?

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

That should be no problem. Are you planning on gelding him soon?

Yea, I think so. I'm not in such a huge rush anymore as I've found a place that will board him as a stallion (which was the pretty much only reasoning for getting him gelded). I'm on the fence about it, simply because he is such a good boy now that I don't really see him being a stud an issue. I do plan on getting a gelding once Spankys going well under cart as a buddy so he isn't by himself anymore, whether he is still a stud or not.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

What set me off last week (so I put the post up) was the clinic I went to. The guy is a judge and a driver of drafts and minis. ... However, there was a lady there who said her mini had run away with her twice. He said he could sell her a twisted wire snaffle and that would fix her problem.I said, shouldn't she do some groundwork to get the horse listening to commands better.

He said the mini knew the commands, but was ignoring them.

I find it quite disgusting that this was the advice he gave to her, when a better solution would be to develop a better relationship with the mini, develop some obedience and consistency, develop some driving skill and find someone to give her lessons, if not someone to retrain the mini.

I agree with you 100% on all counts and would have written the guy off as "not a horseman" the minute he recommended a twisted wire ANYTHING. I would have had the same recommendations you did- develop obedience and consistency, learn about driving, get some lessons, find the root of the problem and eliminate it rather than trying to stifle the symptoms. It just seems to me that good horsemen from any discipline (not just NH) would have responded that way, and that this guy's poor advice had nothing to do with whether or not he used natural horsemanship. Only my opinion! People do learn different ways and in the end all that matters is that you and your horse are working happily together. I tend to focus on what we all have in common rather than "Oh my God, you got there by a different method than I did!"

I love playing with my horse at liberty, nothing feels better than your horse wanting to be with you, not forced by a rope. For those that aren't into Parelli or another natural horsemanship program, take the rope off and ask your horse to side-pass over a log or try lunging without a rope in a large arena or pasture. If the love language and leadership is there he'll stay with you, if he doesn't well the relationship needs work. No it's not all about the liberty, but what an AWESOME feeling!

I agree with you. I clicker train and have done all my work with Turbo at liberty, including harnessing and introducing him to the cart. Both my horses come RUNNING when I show up, and both will leave their dinners just to come stand with me in the corner of the stall in hopes I will work with them. There's no better feeling and it's a great way to challenge yourself as a trainer and make sure you're truly listening to your horse when you have no way to make him stay there with you in the lesson.

I hope no one found my comments negative... just giving an opinion.. just like you hope that someone's comments may not turn them off of PNH ... I hope that someone's praise doesn't have them waste their money to find out it wasn't for them...
I think it works great for some, it doesn't for all -

Exactly.

I am not thrilled with the hard sell nor the price of the equipment and get really offended when a person gets bent if my stick is yellow and not orange or my line is 15' and not 12'... some people are so locked into the words instead of understanding what is really behind the methods.
Now, those people who religiously follow this method or any other drive me a little bit to distraction...

I'm editing to add that I think any of us is wise to learn to slow down, learn to read our horse, remember that we are predators, they are prey animals and that it is much easier for us to learn to act like a horse than for a horse to learn to act like a human. Whatever method you use, if your horse is happy and learning, you are enjoying yourself and your horse and no one is being harmed, good for you!

Well-said, Knottymare.

Stepping out of the thread again, I just wanted to point out that non-NH fans such as myself also deplore the advice of that original clinician!

Leia

 

[lucky seven]

I would like more information on clicker training, I asked at my local tack shop if they anything and their answer was no. Is it recommended and what results has anyone had that tried it.

 

[susanne]

lucky seven, you might want to send a private message to Amy (Clickmini), as she has done a great deal of clicker training.

I've used it to a limited extent, but it works great for behavior modification.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

We can start another thread on that if you'd like, I don't want to take away from the topic of this one.

Leia

 

[studiowvw]

Thanks for the interesting reading!

Usually if there's any Parelli-bashing, I have to leave, but my emotional fitness is improving.

I will reiterate that if I had been able to find an instructor who was able to pass on the skills I instinctively know I want (softness, feel, working with the horse instead of against it), I would have been ecstatic.

The closest I found was the PNH program as it breaks down to the basics and then builds on that. I'm always investigating other information, but PNH is just way more comprehensive, from safety for beginners through to awesome harmony at the higher levels.

One thing they repeat is "the horse is your teacher" - watch and learn to read your horse - then you can figure out what to do to direct your horse to do what you want. It takes time, and as I said, if I had been able to find this from anywhere else, I would be there. It doesn't happen overnight - unless you are very talented (I'm not!)

Another strategy they teach for solving problems is "Isolate, separate, and recombine". I did this this past week, to solve our non-walking problem and we won 1st in the cart class yesterday at the fair!!! I will tell the story in the other thread

 

[studiowvw]

Re Clicker training - in my ongoing quest for MORE MORE MORE information, I attended a demo/clinic on clicker training last year.

It was..... interesting!!!

The people demo'ing said they had had very good results with horses that had no use or interest in humans (had had too many bad experiences with humans). The clicker and treats turned them into friendly partners and they were able to develop training with the system.

However, my take on it was: Sure it is another possible technique, obviously useful when a horse hates humans, and judicious use of treats can help with learning new things and keeping them interested.

Sure does develop a greedy mouth though! (Probably only in early stages, as you go to more clicker and less treats, I would hope that would fade out.)

The other thought in my head was that it REALLY underestimates what you can get a horse to do without food reinforcement.

PS Leia - more on the judge/clinician who recommended the wire bit - I class him as one of the instructors who has had a lifetime of learning and experience, and who is talented, but because it's so natural to him, he cannot understand a beginner's limitations.

Although that clinic was a good introduction to showing and harnessing, I'm hoping we can get someone next time who can pass on some actual driving tips more suited to beginners.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Re Clicker training - in my ongoing quest for MORE MORE MORE information, I attended a demo/clinic on clicker training last year. It was..... interesting!!!...Sure does develop a greedy mouth though! (Probably only in early stages, as you go to more clicker and less treats, I would hope that would fade out.)

You actually never stop giving treats when you click- that's the "contract" you sign with the horse that makes the click so powerful. They know that when they hear that sound, they will ALWAYS get the secondary reinforcer (the food, a scratch, maybe playing with a favorite toy for a dog that isn't food-motivated). What happens is you build duration on the behaviors so that you click much less often, rather than giving less food when you click. I built lots of behaviors with the clicker that no longer get any reward except praise because the horse now knows what I'm asking for. I primarily build new behaviors with the clicker and use it to get through issues the horse is resistant on. (Kody had a lot of those! LOL)

As for the grabby thing, I was taught that you can shape ANY behavior with the clicker so one of the first things I teach a clicker horse is proper food manners. They are to keep their nose in their own space, they are never, ever allowed to nose the treat bag, they must take the food gently and respectfully...it works very well.

One thing I would be interested in learning from Natural Horsemanship is the principles that motivate the horse to cooperate so readily without the use of rewards. I'm familiar with the traditional release of pressure methods of course and use those daily but never found those got a horse who wasn't interested to want to cooperate with you. They seemed to think "Dude, if I avoid you in the first place there's no pressure either!" My horses learned that I was fair and fun and if they came to me they'd get to go out and have a good time so I never had any trouble building a great relationship, but I wouldn't know how to do that with a strange horse in a day or two. That's something I'd like to learn.

Leia

 

[studiowvw]

(I try to avoid "difficult" horses and prefer horses that are forgiving and like me

)

However, this is the theory that comes to mind IMO:

I think the basic thing is the bond that horses naturally develop with their companions. They want a bond, with friends and with the herd.

A) If a horse is so uninterested that they won't interact, one thing to do is the "walking down" from behind (Zone 5 in PNH, also a native technique, also Carolyn Resnick uses it).

If they look at you, you reward by releasing your "pressure" (take your eyes and energy away from them). This builds toward them actually facing you. If you are so uninteresting that they ignore you, get in range and slap the ground, influence the air/energy, or pop them on the butt (not with a lunge whip - that is too painful). That made you more interesting!

If you are doing this with an aggressive or very dominant horse, don't be in range of retaliation - outside the fence would be safer.

What you have to be able to do is read the horse - them looking at you can be very, very subtle - most people would miss it which would miss the opportunity.

Then your body movements and postures will very subtly influence the horse, you have to know what your body is saying (i.e. shoulder may be blocking a direction). Or are you looking at their head, when possibly looking at their hip or tail might be what you want? (The best way through this is "the horse is your teacher" - when you do something, what does your horse do? - that is your influence.)

I've been working a lot at liberty in the last year, which is quite interesting. My mini would usually rather eat when grass is available (although I've fixed that somewhat) and will scream with rage when I put pressure on (even when only slapping the ground she takes it as a threat). A round pen can be too confining - too much pressure too fast. In a paddock or smaller field, there is room for moving around.

B) If the horse puts his butt to you and will not look at you, one way to gain interest is to put yourself first in one eye - when you get a glance or a look, then put yourself (staying in same area behind the horse) in the other eye. Each time you get the glance, then the turn of the head, you would first turn away (take pressure off). You would go from eye to eye. Sometimes they won't allow you in the other eye, so you have to persist until you can get there. Eventually they will start to turn toward you - you have become interesting to them.

C) An undemanding way of creating the bond of companionship with a horse is just to spend time in his presence without having any agenda. PNH calls it Undemanding time, Carolyn Resnick calls it Sharing Territory. It takes patience to do that, but pays off big time.

IMO the most important thing is learning how to read the horse's smallest indications, and learning what your own indications (small or large, depending on your skill level) create in the horse.

I'm not a teacher and people don't pay much attention to me, but I watch people (even myself) and their aids are far too heavy.

People often say a horse can feel a fly land on them (or just flying above the hair). I say humans can feel a hair fall on their skin - at least I can, so I assume others can. If the horse can feel the lightest touch, and humans can feel it, why not take advantage?

My riding horse that I recently sold sometimes (when I was not sloppy) would follow the direction of my eyes, because that subtly influences my own balance and muscles. My previous horse could be influenced by my thought, because that apparently affected my body balance and muscles, which he felt.

I think in driving, if you have subtle contact on the reins, then the change in direction in your eyes would affect the feel on the reins. That is unless you have developed a horse that only responds to a heavy feel.

Parelli uses the 4 phases of feel - phase one as light as touching the hair.

IMO a true phase one is thought. Ray Hunt said to visualize first what you want.

Well I could blather on, hope it is in line with what you were mentioning. However my sheep and goats are on the lawn so I have to go.

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

As for the grabby thing, I was taught that you can shape ANY behavior with the clicker so one of the first things I teach a clicker horse is proper food manners. They are to keep their nose in their own space, they are never, ever allowed to nose the treat bag, they must take the food gently and respectfully...it works very well.

Sort of like a horse version of Susan Garrets "Its Yer Choice" game? (

)

I was never very successful with actual clicker training, too much stuff for my brain to think about at once. I do say "yes" when they do what I ask, followed by pets, so same concept I guess

 

[susanne]

I guess I've been in violation of our contract for a long time, because I almost immediately began decreasing the number of actual treats and began interspersing scritches and verbal praise, and it has worked quite well. Now that my horses are very familiar with clicking, during a clipping session I don't give a treat until we are finished, but with many "good boys" and "good girls" along the way. It has worked great for us, and has prevented them from getting into mugging for treats.

...I thought I had gotten this idea from the Alexandra Kurland website...