Is my thinking upside down

[Reble]

Grey is Grey

I guess, just our opinion fancier names sell better.

:

Example black is not always black, so many times see red in the mane or around nose,

but bays and dark brown now are called black. ( Great for selling )

my dogs that are black do not change colour in the sun. Black is Black

Again just our opinion

:saludando:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No- she is a Grey.

To be Silver Buckskin she would need to be Black + Agouti+ Cream + Silver.

Silver can hide in a Chestnut, though.

I think calling a horse "true" Grey, on an Ad or in a description, is fine- all you are saying is that the horse is Grey, not Silver, and that you know the difference

 

[Boinky]

Personally i think they should have the base color represented on a horses pedigree BUT they should also have something like "greying chestnut, Greying black, greying yada yada yada".. that way you know the base color of the animal if your intrested in color genetics and deciding what color your foals are going to be..then you also know that the parent was a grey so you'd have 50/50% chance of getting your grey or lack there of. It REALLY really annoys me how the registry doesnt' keep or encourage accurate record keeping in the color department. It should be free to update a color when you take a horse permanent. ...then after that they can charge.. mini's change colors somuch that to initially register them as a color might not be what they really are. To me..what good is a registry if they dont' keep accurate records??

 

[billiethekid40]

Here are two sites that I found to be very useful in providing a pictoral of horses at various stages of greying. Please note that when a horse is called "Dapple grey" "steel grey" "rose grey" etc, it can only refer to the horses *present visual* color (what they look like at that moment in time), or their phenotype, and not their genetic color, or their genotype. All grey horses, whether they are called "rose grey", "steel grey" etc have the same greying gene, on a base coat and are simply in different stages of greying, (dapple grey or white) or (in the case of for example a "rose grey"- red base coat vs a "steel grey"-dark base coat) they have a different base color.

I have also always heard the term "true grey" as relating to a horse with the grey gene, to differentiate them from horses who are grey in color, but who do not have the grey gene, like a silver-(dapple) black horse.

Grey

More grey

Compare these photos and descriptions of Grey horses with these ones of horses with the silver gene, silver dapple (aka silver black), silver bay etc. in the various breeds it occurs in:

Silver walkers

Silver icelandics

Among others (miniatures and Shetlands obviously).

 

[jdhand]

O.k. what do y'all think this horse is classified as. I would call him dapple grey, but they only have silver dapple on the Miniature Color list. I have two pic. One at birth and one now. What is really crazy is his mother is a tri color bay pinto and his sire is a sorrel and white leopard appaloosa. I don't even try to guess what the babies will look like. It is always a surprise.

Can't wait to see what everyone thinks.

 

[KenBen]

O.k. what do y'all think this horse is classified as. I would call him dapple grey, but they only have silver dapple on the Miniature Color list. I have two pic. One at birth and one now. What is really crazy is his mother is a tri color bay pinto and his sire is a sorrel and white leopard appaloosa. I don't even try to guess what the babies will look like. It is always a surprise.

Can't wait to see what everyone thinks.

I would say somewhere in the background there has to be a dapple grey.

Ken

 

[Magic]

Ken Ben -- Just FYI -- App roaning is different genetically from what is commonly known as roan. As app breeders, we won't have a regular roan in our program because it dilutes the pattern we are breeding for. A roan is full-form, however, is beautiful, just not desirable for a color breeder.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with this. A "true roan" that is also appaloosa, in my experience at least, does NOT dilute the appaloosa patterns.

This gelding was born this color and shade, and at six years old, he still looks exactly like this. Is this "diluted"?

I also have a "true blue roan" half sister of his, who is even louder-colored than he is.

"Appy roaning" and "true roans" are different things. And "varnish" is a whole 'nother subject, lol!

 

[xxs]

:new_shocked: What a BEAUTIFUL silver dapple,jdhand!!!!!! Your Appy must carry silver

edited to correct the poster's name

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The term "true gray" is only used in miniature horses where silver dapple is so often confused for gray. You will never hear an Arabian breeder say that unless maybe they are indicating that the horse in question is still gray and not white yet.

Billiethekid40 has it EXACTLY right and saved me a lot of typing. :aktion033: The various names like "steel gray" refer to phenotypes which can vary wildly, but "gray" refers to a genotype which is identical in all those colors. Steel gray, by the way, refers specifically to a horse whose coat is still mostly dark with no dapples; it's a very strong slate gray color.

One of the major problems in determining whether a mini is gray, silver dapple, roan, appy roan, or sabino is that almost all those colors involve white hairs mixed into the body color.

-Sabino is any normal body color with white hairs mixed into the coat, either spreading from high leg white, a blaze, and a white chin or showing up as body spots or even appearing almost entirely white. (I know, I know, very simplified there.) Horse is born this color and stays that way, the variations I describe are in degree, not age.

-Appy roans I don't know much about genetically (although I recognize one when I see it), but I know they change over their lifetimes and a varnish roan will usually remain solid on the cheekbones, knees, and ankles. White hairs take over everywhere else.

-"True roans" are born roan and stay roan. They have dark heads, legs, and manes/tails but there are white hairs mixed through the coat everywhere else so solidly that the animal looks blue (black base) or pink (bay or chestnut base) when clipped or in summer coat.

-Silver dapples (black+silver gene) are born a mousy sort of color with silvery manes and tails and stay that way as they grow up. There are no white hairs in the coat to my knowledge, rather the entire color is diluted to a gray or pewter shade. Silver bays are born looking sort of like chestnuts with flaxen manes and tails only their lower legs will be darker and their mane/tail hairs a silver color. Chestnut hides silver but can pass it on.

-Gray we've already discussed. If they get the gray modifier gene, any regular coat color is bleached over the life of the horse causing a gradual lightening of their appearance. White hairs (already bleached hairs) are mixed in AND the other hairs lighten. I think. LOL This can happen quickly or slowly and some horses seem to stall out at a certain color for many years. They may go white by age six or never quite go white at all. One tell-tale sign of a gray foal is that they will often have a light ring around their eyes when they are born. Apparently minis can gray in the womb or some such thing, which is totally unheard of in big horses. Complications, complications!

:

Hope this was some help.

Leia

 

[Sue_C.]

O.k. what do y'all think this horse is classified as. I would call him dapple grey, but they only have silver dapple on the Miniature Color list.

This horse is a classic example of a silver dapple, the stallion must be carrying silver, as already mentioned. Neither of it's parents are grey, so it cannot be grey. This it the exact thing I mentioned, about where the main confusion is between the two.

:

 

[faithfarm]

O.k. what do y'all think this horse is classified as. I would call him dapple grey, but they only have silver dapple on the Miniature Color list. I have two pic. One at birth and one now. What is really crazy is his mother is a tri color bay pinto and his sire is a sorrel and white leopard appaloosa. I don't even try to guess what the babies will look like. It is always a surprise.

Can't wait to see what everyone thinks.

He is a silver dapple. Your sorrel and white appaloosa has a silver gene and threw it on top of your mares back gene. This is how you find those hidden silver genes.

On the registration colors, I would rather have the registry put the original color on the registration. Anyone can look at a horse and see true gray but you don't know what color it is under the gray without it being on the registration. I would prefer an option that shows black pinto/gray, sorrel/gray or something similiar.

 

[Little Wee Horse Farm]

To quote Magic --- "Appy roaning" and "true roans" are different things."

Magic -- I believe we are saying the same thing??? Please re-read what I said. I think we are saying the same.

I'm not saying appy roaning dilutes appy color. I am saying that regular roaning dilutes it. It only stands to reason, I think, that that would be the case, since "roan" fades out color. Am I really goofing up the meaning here or what?

:

 

[jdhand]

Now here we go this picture is the silver dapples half brother. They have he same sire and different dams. This dam is considered an albino. White Hair Pink Skin. One Blue eye one brown He is a grey and white leopard app.

Tell me more

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I would like to see a picture of the dam of that mare.... I still thing there is a silver buckskin there. If the mother is a grey....meaning true grey not carying silver or palamino then that filly must be grey however if the mare lookis like this filly I still maintain she is a silver buckskin not a grey.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[KenBen]

[SIZE=14pt]I would like to see a picture of the dam of that mare.... I still thing there is a silver buckskin there. If the mother is a grey....meaning true grey not carying silver or palamino then that filly must be grey however if the mare lookis like this filly I still maintain she is a silver buckskin not a grey.[/SIZE]

Lyn

Lyn here is a photo of the dam of that filly. Her name is Egypian King Camio. She is a Egyptian King Private Terms granddaughter. When I got her papers she was listed as a buckskin.

Ken

 

[Becky]

This dam is considered an albino. White Hair Pink Skin.

Actually, research over the last several years has proven there is no such thing as albinos in horses. Those horses previously thought to be albinos are now known to be cremellos, perlinos or maximum expressions of one or more of the overo patterns (frame, splashed white or sabino).

 

[Dona]

OMG.....I've never seen so much "confusion of colors" in my life! :new_shocked:

Becky is right... there are no known "Albinos" in the equine world. They are all Cremellos, Perlinos, or maximum expression Overos.

: TRUE Albinos would have bright red eyes (like Albino rabbits) and there are no known horses like this.

JDFaithFarm.....your boy is a classic Silver Dapple (which is the silver gene on a black horse). I can understand why you want to call him "Dapple Gray", as that is how he "looks" to you. But that would be wrong, as he is not a Dappled Gray horse. That would be one that gradually fades each year, & gets lighter & lighter.

And as far as "True Gray" goes.

No one has yet mentioned that "True Gray" is actually NOT A COLOR! :no: It is a PATTERN of white hairs that gradually becomes more & more pronounced as the horse ages, causing the base color to fade.

When people refer to "True Gray"....they are talking about the horses who carry that FADING pattern. These horses are usually born any base color, and then gradually FADE to white. And NO, they are not actually FADING...technically, they are "roaning" more & more each year. Altho, they will roan ALL OVER, not like a True Roan who roans out on their body, but will keep the dark head, legs, mane & tail.)

Yes, a "True Gray" horse can actually be a gray color at some point in this fading process. But they can also be black, red, brown, palomino, buckskin, etc. with just a bit of "roaning" going on. They can be strawberry roan looking. They can be dappled gray. They can be white with a dark gray mane & tail. They can be dark gray with a white mane & tail. They can be pure white! There are many, many possibilites of coloring during the different phases of a horse turning "gray". So just calling it a "True Gray" horse is not necessarily describing it's phenotype (actual color). It is telling you that this is a horse who is carrying the "Gray" gene which causes the original color to fade by acquiring more & more white hairs each year.

Now, as far as "Steel Gray", I've heard others mention. To actually be born that color & stay that color....it would have to be a Black-Based horse....such as a Silver Dapple. Or, possibly a black horse who is graying VERY slowly.....or a black horse with Sabino roaning. You should be able to determine this very easily by looking for the white hairs interspersed throughout the black coat.

:

And I also agree with what someone else said.....I think the more accurate way to describe a "True Gray" horse...is to include it's base color. (Graying Bay, Graying Black, Graying Buckskin, Graying Chestnut, etc.,etc.,etc.)

If you don't include that BASE color....all you know is that the horse's original color has faded to gray/white...but you won't know what that original color was!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

That mare is about as gray as gray gets. The filly just looks a little odd because she's a bay going gray (called a rose gray, often doesn't have much dappling) and she's been clipped, which can do some really funny things to the appearance of young gray horses.

Leia

P.S.- Dona, did you even READ my post? LOL. I said "modifier gene!" I said "bleaching!" I defined steel gray. Pay attention, girlfriend, and don't tell me no one said gray was a pattern and not a color. ::giggle::

 

[Dona]

That mare is about as gray as gray gets. The filly just looks a little odd because she's a bay going gray (called a rose gray, often doesn't have much dappling) and she's been clipped, which can do some really funny things to the appearance of young gray horses.

Leia

P.S.- Dona, did you even READ my post? LOL. I said "modifier gene!" I said "bleaching!" I defined steel gray. Pay attention, girlfriend, and don't tell me no one said gray was a pattern and not a color. ::giggle::

:lol: OK Leia....I must admit I skimmed over most of it, as I was trying to read all 4 pages of this thread at once. I do apologize for that.

: But I skimmed thru, and all I saw was "modifier gene" & "bleaching". I didn't see "Pattern" mentioned anywhere. I'm just trying to make it as easy as possible for people who don't understand color genetics, and if using different "terms" helps....

:

I must say tho, that I don't believe the gray gene "bleaches" any hairs. The colored hairs eventually fall out & are replaced with more & more white hairs.

 

[Little Wee Horse Farm]

OMG.....I've never seen so much "confusion of colors" in my life! :new_shocked:

Dona -- HAHAHAHA! :lol: When I posted my "grey" question this morning, I NEVER thot it would kick up so much dust!! Boy -- I think maybe people have more to say about grey than about appy!! Or sabino!! Or, EVEN, maybe (gasp) smokey black!!! :new_shocked: