Is my thinking upside down

[jdhand]

This dam is considered an albino. White Hair Pink Skin.

Actually, research over the last several years has proven there is no such thing as albinos in horses. Those horses previously thought to be albinos are now known to be cremellos, perlinos or maximum expressions of one or more of the overo patterns (frame, splashed white or sabino).

I have wondered about that. She is about 24 years old and Albino is what is on her papers. She does have truly white hair. I have another horse and her papers describe her as White Hair, White Main, Pink Skin and Blue Eyes. Not Cremello or Perlino. She is not as white. What would she truly be? Both of these horses were bred on the same farm. He bred for white horses. I looked up the pedigree and found that this mares dam was a true albino with pink eyes.

 

[Dona]

This dam is considered an albino. White Hair Pink Skin.

Actually, research over the last several years has proven there is no such thing as albinos in horses. Those horses previously thought to be albinos are now known to be cremellos, perlinos or maximum expressions of one or more of the overo patterns (frame, splashed white or sabino).

I have wondered about that. She is about 24 years old and Albino is what is on her papers. She does have truly white hair. I have another horse and her papers describe her as White Hair, White Main, Pink Skin and Blue Eyes. Not Cremello or Perlino. She is not as white. What would she truly be? Both of these horses were bred on the same farm. He bred for white horses. I looked up the pedigree and found that this mares dam was a true albino with pink eyes.

Hmmmmmmmmmm......I would love to see that horse.

: I'm not saying there are no Albinos, because, heck....I only know what I've seen. (or haven't seen) But every color genetic book I have says that horses who were "thought" to be Albinos (sometimes called "True Whites"), were actually Dilutes (Cremellos or Perlinos) or Maximum white Overos.

If this horse's dam truly had pink eyes....I would say that yes, I would call her an Albino.

: BUT....people can "say" a lot of things...doesn't make it true. And we all know how inaccurate registration papers are when it comes to colors. Guess I would have to see it for myself to believe it.

Regardless if that horse had pink eyes or not.....if the white horses you are talking about have any colored eyes besides pink (dark or blue) that proves they are not Albinos. They have to be either a dilute or Maximum expressed overo (which would have pink skin & white hair)

:

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I must say tho, that I don't believe the gray gene "bleaches" any hairs. The colored hairs eventually fall out & are replaced with more & more white hairs.

You're right, and that was a poor way for me to phrase it. What I was remembering was an article from years ago that explained that the gray gene slowly causes hair follicles to stop producing melanine, causing the hair to have less and less color over the years until they are all completely colorless. So I was picturing each hair having less and less color over time, which translated to a "bleaching effect" in my head. It probably does happen as a new hair grows in with each coat but the effect is each hair lightening over time as well as there being a larger and larger percentage of whitened (colorless) hairs in the overall coat.

Leia

 

[Elizabeth_S]

I have a 'true' grey stallion. I use the term true grey with many mini people just so they aren't confused with silver dapple since there does seem to be so much confusion there. I personally refer to him a black based grey. He was born black and has slowly turned grey over the years to where he is now almost white in color at 13 years of age. He does till have some black hairs mixed in his body and mane and tail.

His babies that have turned grey have all turned grey slowly, just as he has done. I'm NOT a color genetics person (call me ignorant, lazy whatever- color makes no difference to me, a good horse is a good horse regardless of it's color), but I can't help but think there must be either some double grey gene or silver at work with a lot of the greys in Minis. So many grey Minis are almost completely grey (white) within the first year of their life. This isn't the way large horses turn grey, nor the way my stallion's grey babies turn either. So for you color experts out there, please tell me if any research has been done to identify why some horses turn grey so quickly- meaning within the first few months of life, rather than over a few years. Thanks!

 

[Bess Kelly]

Personally, I think the term originated just because of the many type of visually "grey" colors and the intention of denoting that the animal was a TRUE grey....who was eventually going to lose the color to white.

It's a "grey" horse...... :new_shocked: .....visually, silver is called grey, roaned can look gray, etc. Thus I believe it has been coined as "true grey", not silvered. IMO the term is to help understand while not getting into genetics of color.

 

[Dona]

I have a 'true' grey stallion. I use the term true grey with many mini people just so they aren't confused with silver dapple since there does seem to be so much confusion there. I personally refer to him a black based grey. He was born black and has slowly turned grey over the years to where he is now almost white in color at 13 years of age. He does till have some black hairs mixed in his body and mane and tail.

His babies that have turned grey have all turned grey slowly, just as he has done. I'm NOT a color genetics person (call me ignorant, lazy whatever- color makes no difference to me, a good horse is a good horse regardless of it's color), but I can't help but think there must be either some double grey gene or silver at work with a lot of the greys in Minis. So many grey Minis are almost completely grey (white) within the first year of their life. This isn't the way large horses turn grey, nor the way my stallion's grey babies turn either. So for you color experts out there, please tell me if any research has been done to identify why some horses turn grey so quickly- meaning within the first few months of life, rather than over a few years. Thanks!

You are probably on the right track, as the Silver gene is so predominant in Miniatures!

:

 

[Aubrey715]

KenBen I would definitely say that your mare is a bay roan. Her head is dark in my opinion and she has roaning. You said that her sire is a bay and the dam is a grey say that would only make sense to me for her to be a bay roan. And she definitely has the bay tint to her. This is just my opinion though.

We have a grey stallion that pretty much only produces greys and all of his babies have either started off bay, red, or black and then they turn about white later on. Aubrey

 

[hobbyhorse23]

KenBen I would definitely say that your mare is a bay roan. Her head is dark in my opinion and she has roaning. You said that her sire is a bay and the dam is a grey say that would only make sense to me for her to be a bay roan. And she definitely has the bay tint to her. This is just my opinion though. We have a grey stallion that pretty much only produces greys and all of his babies have either started off bay, red, or black and then they turn about white later on. Aubrey

Uh, Aubrey? One parent has to be bay roan for the foal to be bay roan. Her parents aren't. Secondly, of course she has a bay tint to her. She IS a bay...one who's going gray.

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Except that of course the Grey parent could also have been Roan, "underneath" the Grey, as it were

:

 

[KenBen]

KenBen I would definitely say that your mare is a bay roan. Her head is dark in my opinion and she has roaning. You said that her sire is a bay and the dam is a grey say that would only make sense to me for her to be a bay roan. And she definitely has the bay tint to her. This is just my opinion though. We have a grey stallion that pretty much only produces greys and all of his babies have either started off bay, red, or black and then they turn about white later on. Aubrey

Uh, Aubrey? One parent has to be bay roan for the foal to be bay roan. Her parents aren't. Secondly, of course she has a bay tint to her. She IS a bay...one who's going gray.

Leia

This is a photo of the filly as a weanling.

Ken

 

[Meavey]

She sure shows the grey goggles in that pic.

:

 

[KenBen]

KenBen I would definitely say that your mare is a bay roan. Her head is dark in my opinion and she has roaning. You said that her sire is a bay and the dam is a grey say that would only make sense to me for her to be a bay roan. And she definitely has the bay tint to her. This is just my opinion though.

We have a grey stallion that pretty much only produces greys and all of his babies have either started off bay, red, or black and then they turn about white later on. Aubrey

This is a bay roan yearling colt out of the same sire and dam as the grey filly. As a weanling he was a blood bay.

Ken

 

[zacharyfarms]

I must say tho, that I don't believe the gray gene "bleaches" any hairs. The colored hairs eventually fall out & are replaced with more & more white hairs.

You're right, and that was a poor way for me to phrase it. What I was remembering was an article from years ago that explained that the gray gene slowly causes hair follicles to stop producing melanine, causing the hair to have less and less color over the years until they are all completely colorless. So I was picturing each hair having less and less color over time, which translated to a "bleaching effect" in my head. It probably does happen as a new hair grows in with each coat but the effect is each hair lightening over time as well as there being a larger and larger percentage of whitened (colorless) hairs in the overall coat.

Leia

Melanin exists in the plant, animal and protista kingdoms, where it serves as a pigment. What happens when a horse has the grey gene is the melanin production is stopped from going to the hair and hence the loss of pigment (melanin)(hair color) causes the hair to be white. In approximately 80% of these horses with the grey gene as the hairs stop taking up pigment into them and turn white, the pigment remains in the skin. It continues to be produced, but doesn't go where it's supposed to, as it cannot. Instead, pigment-filled tumors

(melanomas) form along the digestive tract, and on the head and anal/genital region. The external tumors are not usually a problem.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

>>

I must say tho, that I don't believe the gray gene "bleaches" any hairs. The colored hairs eventually fall out & are replaced with more & more white hairs.

>>
Actually hair follicle stops producing pigment or does not allow it out of the follicle if I recall correctly. You will see greys with melanoma which is a collection of the pigment in the skin.

Tammie

edited- LOL Judy, just noticed we said basically the same thing!