judge hates breeching -"its for mountains"- OMG

[keely2682]

We went to the Ocala "just for minis" show yesterday.

As is often typical at smaller shows here, the arena was neither drug nor packed.

It was nasty, heavy, loose clay/sand and a hard pull on the horses.

My horses have previously expressed their displeasure with backing up in such footing with no breeching.

I would rather add another strap than leave them with a reason to refuse my commands.

So, I ordered breeching for my lutke harnesses.

Gary showed Lightening in his Lutke, complete with breeching, and a Wilform show cart.

The tack was well fitted and looked very professional. They looked good.

I decided to drive Tippy in more casual attire.

(Left Houghton and Lutke at home for this show.)

Since I had just recieved my new custom chimacum sport harness the night before

and i really wanted to try it out and show it off,

I used it (complete with freedom collar) and beautiful oak easy entry.

Tippy looked very pretty and very country,

especially with my driving apron and hat

After 2 classes with 4 judges,

(in which some of the other horses in the ring had difficulty backing in awful footing)

one of the judges approached Gary and me.

She told us that breeching did not belong in the show ring.

We had no use for it on level footing! It was for offroad driving and mountains. OH!

She said it did not help backing and we should pull it off our harnesses

I was too shocked to respond.

Gary thanked her politely and we left the ring.

Keep in mind, in my "nonshow attire" WITH my breeching, freedom collar, and easy entry

I beat 2 national champion driving horses and the previous weekend's regional champion

under 3 of 4 judges!!!

It evidently did not look too out of place under the other judges!

I just ordered Lightening breeching for this kind of heavy, nasty footing!!!

He has a sensitive back, his lutke has a narrow saddle...

And pull it off my new CDE harness that I was using with an easy entry?!

My harness has open tugs (which had the shafts floating beautifully) and a sliding backband

I had a 4" wide freedom collar on my mare, complete with false martingale and rein turrets,

how would removing breeching help reduce the amount of tack on my horse?!

If I wanted that look I would have use my Lutke!

 

[justagirl]

Wow ... that realy reaks .... I've been wondering if someone had ever done this and placed well ... sounds like it's up to what the judge likes .

Just out of curiosity ... which judge was it that told you this .... I like to keep notes

 

[keely2682]

i won the class under 3 of 4 judges!

 

[justagirl]

i won the class under 3 of 4 judges!

I read that ... I'm just wondering which judge thought it to be out of place.

 

[keely2682]

i'm sure the one who bothered to comment on it placed me different

lol

pm me for the name if you wish

i'm not sure its nice to post her name

 

[justagirl]

i'm sure the one who bothered to comment on it placed me different

Well no kidding ..... but do you know the NAME of the judge that was displeased with your turnout .

They always announce who got what place under each judge .

 

[Margo_C-T]

You have encountered ignorance of the real principles and mechanics of driving --sad, but simple as that, IMO. I guess we should be glad that only one of the four was that ignorant!! Any JUDGE who is not aware of how difficult, and possibly even painful, it often is for a horse to both bring a cart and occupant to a stop, and more so, to BACK it all FROM THE HARNESS SADDLE, does not have the knowledge they should to hold a card, IMO...I appreciate your frustration, and would feel JUST the same--but DON'T let that make you feel you shouldn't put your horses' comfort and subsequent willingness to work, FIRST! You did the RIGHT thing, absolutely!

You showed in COUNTRY PLEASURE! Even in the 'unreal' atmosphere of the breed show ring, breeching should be appropriate in that class, to anyone who really KNOWS driving! I might *understand* such a comment to you had the class been Miniature Single Pleasure(which has become a 'fine harness' wannabe), given the way such classes are traditionally turned out, but it was completely 'beyond the pale' for Country Pleasure, and 'she' should know it!!

I believe that bottom line ignorance of what truly SHOULD be being evaluated is a HUGE problem with judging in miniature shows. It needs to be addressed MUCH MORE closely in their judging seminars (last I heard it discussed, attendees at those were being shown video of HACKNEY driving classes, for cryin' out loud!) I surely hope things have improved in that respect!

When I ordered my second Lutke, I ordered it with breeching, a wider saddle, and both Tilbury and open tug systems,a false martingale but no running martingale, and just a sidecheck---it was GREAT-but then I quit breed showing, and I sold it (to Florida, actually; I noticed it advertised on the LB Sale Board about a year later, for MORE than I sold it for, and it apparently sold IMMEDIATELY...)

I am sending you a PM.

Best wishes,

Margo

 

[disneyhorse]

Hey, you are paying for the Judge's OPINION, right or wrong. Judging is a gray area, and judges are not perfect people and they are always learning I would bet.

I think in other disciplines Judges look at some things that exhibitors just flip out over (avocado is not the "in" color in the ring, etc.) but hey, it's just a horse show.

Hopefully the Judge saw how out-of-place his placings were in comparison to the other Judges. And learned from this experience. Not every Judge has seen every situation and they all have what they consider priorities. Perhaps "overall turnout" was important to him.

You DO take a risk when you show "against the norm." I am not saying that breeching is anywhere near unsuitable, but it is not the "norm" in breed ring driving.

Driving is one area that I feel Judges are just now starting to become more educated. When I very first got into minis, they ONLY judged front-end-action-and-headset. That's IT. Now it's a little more educated, but they still have a long way to go. Not all Judges came from a driving background.

Andrea

 

[keely2682]

this judge is a driving trainer! OH!

let me correct that- A BREED SHOW ONLY TRAINER

the "unreal world of the showring"

lol- i wish

if the ring was perfect or at least packed breeching would have been a nonissue

or if we merely drove around the ring a few times

it was a small first weekend of summer in florida show

there were lots of "new to minis" and "interested in minis" spectators there

they were all interested in driving

i hooked up my driving horse with her comfy harness and cart

so that she could give cart rides and visit with people

(and show off her wonderful new harness!

)

i'm sure tippy appreciated her freedom collar and when she was lugging 2 adults around

 

[keely2682]

i paid for the judges' opinions and have no problem with her opinion or placing

i do have a problem with her ignorance and comment

what if his comment had been to a newbie,

who then thought breeching only belonged "in the mountains"?

i always have and always will put my horse's comfort and happiness first

and continue to take opinions and advice with a grain of salt

 

[SilverDollar]

Interesting discussion. I had no idea what "breeching" was so I looked it up. Can you tell I don't know much above driving?

Anyway, I found this website that gave great descriptions and graphics on the parts of the harness and what they're used for.

http://www.mini-horse-pony-tack-guide.com/harness.html

 

[Keri]

I would always use my breeching showing in an EE cart. Just makes it safer on the horse and on the driver. Had a friend last year where the EE cart bumped the back of her horse and it took off. Better safe than sorry. And I know lots of exhibitors who feel the same as you do. If the areana is bad, then better to keep the horse safe than try and show off in your fancy cart. Might as well have them perform correctly. Congrats on your other placings. Every judge has their opinion. I have a tough time becuase some judges can't see past the spots on my horse (even though he's awesome in conformation). Just take it and move on.

 

[Minimor]

It doesn't surprise me in the least that there's a judge or two or three who would point out that breeching isn't appropriate for the showring, even in CP. I'm quite sure that there are some judges who would place a horse down for wearing breeching, but they just wouldn't comment on it. There are some judges who would tell you that you absolutely must have a martingale on your driving horse, and would even place you down because you aren't using one. I don't use a martingale--I fully expect that someday I'll encounter a judge that doesn't like that, but that's okay. If someone wants to place me down for that reason, they'll just have to do it.

In the showring, nothing really surprises me!

Please PM me with the name of that judge that made this comment. I like to know which judges like/dislike what!

 

[Dr. Pam]

I have been told by several judges (2 of whom have been Nationals judges) that they will place a driving horse lower or not place it if it does not have a martingale as part of the harness. I disagree about needing one to drive, but if I want to win/place well showing under them, I put one on. Period. I'm not going to change their mind, and I can put one on loose enough that my horses won't object. I NEVER use one in obstacle driving though. I too have used breeching in bad footing, and we always use it for the wood EE when our PMC lady is driving. I have seen gorgeous correct ADS style turnouts get the gate in Country Pleasure, and I have seen them win. I personally think they look wonderful!

ADS driving is a whole nother world, and it's pretty much all we're doing now. I do miss the in hand performance classes though. Congrats Keely--I can just picture how nice you guys looked. Chimicum harnesses are the BOMB!!!!!

 

[keely2682]

speaking of martingales- didn't have one of those either

barely had a check- grabbed one at the miniexpress booth on my way to the ring

love the harness- will be using it at amhr nationals

look for it in roman chariot

 

[alongman]

I've been holding off on responding to this as I don't know the circumstances of the class, show (AMHR or AMHA), etc... but finally had to comment on some things. Each member of a breed association has access to the rule book, it is frustrating from a judging standpoint, when the rules aren't followed and a placing must be adjusted or an animal disqualified (this wasn't the case here, but REALLY people, read the rule book). I have had several people confront me after placings who had never even opened the book so had NO idea what the specifications were for each class. Sorry for being long-winded, but here goes.

1) It is a judges' opinion at each show - there are some judges that I know don't care for my style of horse, so I either accept that or choose other shows to exhibit at. It is strictly their opinion on a given day.

2) If you read the AMHR rulebook (pg. 253-260) you will find the very specific rules regarding the type of harness, attire, etc... for the Country Pleasure class. Keep in mind, proper harness accounts for 30% of your total score. If you get docked in this area, you may have gotten a lower placing. I have included a brief segment of it:

Part 14 – Country Pleasure Driving

A. General

1. Country Pleasure driving is to be shown to a two

wheel cart only. Bike tires or wooden wheels are

permissible.

2. Harness in the country pleasure division must be of

the light type. Breastcollars or light collars are

permissible, but no full hames allowed. Britching

is optional. Side or over-checks are required. When

shown, the horse must have blinders (round or

square) and the check must be hooked. No other

appliances may be used on a driving horse other

than the harness. (Example: no fly nets on the ears,

face, or body).

3. Bits in the pleasure driving division shall be of the

snaffle type. No liverpool bits, curb chains or curb

straps are allowed.

4. Martingales may or may not be used.

5. Check bits may be used but are not required.

If you read this, you will see that a check IS required. A martingale is not. A freedom collar is a gray area in the definition of what is considered a light-type harness. Depending upon how it looks on the horse, some judges may consider this to be pushing the "collar" definition which is not allowed in a country pleasure class.

3) Although breeching is technically allowed in the country pleasure class, it is still a pleasure class. Most people look at any type of breeching and "collar" as that gray area. Also, responding to a prior comment, breeching is NOT used to back a horse or ease in the process. It is specifically put on the harness to assist in the slowing of the vehicle. Quite honestly, if there is that much weight in the vehicle, then the breeching alone is NOT making this a comfortable drive for the miniature horse. Are breechings used "in the mountains"? Certainly. For their intended use of slowing or stopping a vehicle. I cannot remember, from my own driving training/exhibiting, when I've had a situation where breeching would have benefitted me in the Midwest.

4) If you feel that the ring was unsuitable to drive in, then that should have been made clear to the show office. At no time does anyone want to compromise a horses' safety for showing.

5) Personal attacks on judges' are quite rude. I do my darndest when I'm judging to provide a fair and honest OPINION. At times, I feel as though some of the people showing under me would appreciate a word of encouragement as to how I feel that they could have had a better showing. Obviously, as is evidenced by this thread, is not always the case. I would love to go into the ring and tell everyone they did EXACTLY what I wanted, but then it pretty much defeats the purpose of a placing. Correct?! If you do not want to have any comments (other than positive ones made in your direction) then you should make that clear to the ring steward prior to showing so you are not put in a position to hear any comments the judge would like to share.

If you feel that the judges' are not adequately trained in a specific area, then you need to bring that as a concern to the judges' committee. Each judge is required to attend mandatory training sessions where we evaluate multiple areas of the breeds. You are correct, at this last years' training, we did evaluate several MODERN ponies as well as some ASPR ponies (mostly hackney lines). These are historically areas with low turn-out, so the judges', in order to better prepare ourselves for those classes, asked for more education in those areas. HOWEVER, we also looked at almost 1 hour of miniature horse driving classes (country pleasure included).

6) I don't know any judge that would make a comment to intentionally offend someone or possibly not encourage someone to continue showing. In fact, we are encouraged to give "helpful comments" to be on quite the other end of the spectrum - to help a person understand why they were placed the way there were instead of being discouraged.

7) Each show has evaluation forms that can be completed regarding the office staff, accomodations and judging. Obviously, you feel quite strongly about the potential mis-treatment, so I would encourage you to submit your concerns.

I'm sorry for the novel, but I take quite blatant attacks on my peers, both judges and horse-people alike, quite personally. Let the burning begin.....

 

[SweetOpal]

Adam,

I agree 100%...when I go to a show, I do like to know why I didn't do as well as I had hoped for...and I think it is great if you take the time to tell the exhibitor something. I appreciate knowing what the judge did or did not like, I personally hate wondering, what I did wrong. If they tell me something like my modern was out of class, well I take that for what its worth, sometimes I would agree he has too much action or too little depending on the division, and I keep that in mind if I ever show under them again. Sometimes it could just be how we showed, how we drove, the over all picture, maybe that judge just flat didn't like the harness?? Also like Disney said it is one persons opinion and we are paying for it...they are not all going to think we are great, or there wouldn't be placings.

Keely,

At this show how did the horse place under the other judges?

 

[alongman]

Sweet Opal -

I believe that Keely placed well under the other judges. Just to clarify.

 

[Dr. Pam]

Adam, I really appreciate your imput. No flames from here, but I think overall this thread has been very helpful to point out the difference between "required" and "preference". If you are going to show in the breed shows, you have to play by their rules. You absolutely hit the nail on the head about being familiar with the Rule Book.

I applaud your continuing education, but not all judges put as much effort into learning the way you do, and some can watch all the videos in the world and still stick by their outdated or incorrect inclinations when it comes to performace classes. When you have been at this as long as I have, you know you can get the gate under one judge and win under another in the same class. It's guys like you who keep me coming back to the R shows.

 

[Ashley]

6) I don't know any judge that would make a comment to intentionally offend someone or possibly not encourage someone to continue showing. In fact, we are encouraged to give "helpful comments" to be on quite the other end of the spectrum - to help a person understand why they were placed the way there were instead of being discouraged.

actually I do know of one judge like this. Last year, pretty much told my son that he and his horse should go running because they could both stand to lose some weight.

I have incountered some rough judges out there, but most dont bother me. And I couldnt see Adam being mean, that is unless he knows you then he likes to torment you.