judge hates breeching -"its for mountains"- OMG

[Keri]

I had a judge tell me in 4-H (I was 8) that I should put my horse down becuase he isn't worth showing. He was my mom's old barrel horse (aroun 20, but still lively). I burst into tears and my mom chewed her out. We won the speed event classes later on that night. Sorry your son had to hear that Ashley. That's just plain rude and not good critisism at all.

I think there's a limit as to where the judge should tell what's wrong. They should never discourage a youth in any way (my opinion), but rather tell the parent the constructive critisism. And adults should take it (either leave it or learn from it).

 

[alongman]

actually I do know of one judge like this. Last year, pretty much told my son that he and his horse should go running because they could both stand to lose some weight.

I have incountered some rough judges out there, but most dont bother me. And I couldnt see Adam being mean, that is unless he knows you then he likes to torment you.

I'm sorry to say that I guess there are a few bad eggs in every basket. I apologize for another judges' comments. I have found, though, that if a person doesn't place as highly as they had hoped, even if I offer helpful and well-intended comments, they can be taken completely out of context by an enraged exhibitor who thinks little more of me than mud.

And I don't torment everyone that I know, Ashley.

I just like to torment you! You're such a good sport.

 

[bluerogue]

I can't comment on the breeching issue, as I don't know enough about driving to make an informed comment.

However, I can comment on it sounds like the judge was out of place in what she said (maybe just slightly, or maybe a great deal... I just don't know enough about how breeching works).

I had a REALLY bad experience with a judge once... ended with me walking out of the ring near sobbing. It happened right in front of the then AMHA president, who talked to the judge after classes that day. Mike Want was right there too, and talked to me for quite a while after the class was over. He didn't walk away until he knew I was feeling better about the whole thing. From my understanding, the judge was spoken to not only by the president of AMHA, but the other judges had words for her as well. I also understand other competitors said things as well.

I showed my colt in his last class after this happened, and while the mean judge didn't say anything to me, both of the others did. One just said nice to see you back in the ring, and the other said you are showing much better in this class (I completely shut down in the other class, and was crying in the ring. After that judge talked to me in the first class, I just completely stopped showing, and basically sat there till the class ended). I only showed in one other show after that, the regionals 2 months later.

Do I intend to show again? Yes, but I will not ever show again under that beehive (gotta love the insults my non-swearing sister-in-law comes up with). I also need to work my nerve back up to do it. I think I may start showing at the local schooling shows and such before I attempt showing at a sanctioned breed show again. That was very upsetting, and disturbing, and it was only my second show. It kinda turned me off showing. And this is several years later now.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I'm afraid I must VIGOROUSLY disagree with Mr. Longman on his position that breeching is essentially of no use in backing the cart! I believe you might need to go out into the 'wider' world of driving, sir---outside the groomed show ring, for instance---or even, in the UNgroomed show ring, which at small shows, is OFTEN encountered, in my experience and observation-- and take another look, before making such a statement. In addition, I see NO 'personal attacks' being made--this business of trying to make virtually every strong, straightforward, and based-on-solid-knowledge-and-experience opinion an 'attack' becomes quite tiresome and leads nowhere, IMO.

I as vigorously AGREE that IF you are going to compete, JOB ONE is to familiarize yourself with the applicable rulebook--that's a "GIVEN", though I have certainly seen MANY over the years who apparently had never opened it, much less read it. ANYONE who has ever judged knows well that there are people who will be unhappy with you IF THEY DIDN'T do well--it is simply part of being a judge. No judge should EVER make an UNKIND suggestion to ANYONE, no matter how 'deserved' they may feel it would be---to be the one who maintains their professional aplomb is part of the job, IMO.

I also believe that the rules should be followed as closely as possible AS WRITTEN--and that anyone in the position of being PAID to judge(offer their EDUCATED opinion) should try VERY hard to NOT have a personal agenda and strong personal preferences. I have DONE judging of horse shows (never carded; never wished to be...), and I believe you need to leave your personal preferences 'at the door', as MUCH as humanly possible.

WHEN you read the two miniature registries' driving rules, you see that they don't differ too much, AND, they are NOT terribly specific. Both have certain requirements, but not a long list. I am most familiar with AMHA, and my reference in my earlier post was to AMHA--but NOWHERE that I have found does EITHER say that breeching is NOT acceptable, nor that a (running)martingale is anything other that OPTIONAL, just for two examples---so WHY would an otherwise well-presented performance be so criticized as was Keely's by a judge if that judge was TRULY knowledgable AND unbiased?(of course, if you read her post with care, you know that she WON under ALL the other three judges!)

We all can probably agree that a certain 'look' has become 'traditional' in the breed show ring of miniature horses, but that is NOT the same thing as a 'REQUIREMENT' now, is it? And since there are also OTHER aspects of driving that exist, with good reason, why should not a TOP QUALITY presentation of those aspects be just as qualified for recognition under well-rounded judges?

I would like to ask Mr. Longman who the "most people" are who see breeching and the 'freedom' breastcollar as a 'gray area'?? As quoted, al that is prohibited is 'full hames'...even a 'light collar' is mentioned in the R rulebook as being acceptable(to me, that is a buggy-type collar; what is it to you?)--and a 'freedom' breastcollar is FAR from being a NECK COLLAR! And, may I ask, WHY ON EARTH would breeching (called "britching" in the R rulebook quoted) not be a good idea in Country because "it is a PLEASURE CLASS "--would using breeching make the drive LESS pleasurable???

I am VERY familiar with the requirements--AND the so-called traditional looks of the breed show ring classes. IMO, some make very good sense--others, not so much! I have to say that I am a STRONG believer that it is not ALWAYS necessary to 'follow the crowd' to win; I believe that when you know what you are doing, and stay within acceptable safety and common-sense parameters, AND can give an excellent 'GO' in the show ring, while adhering to the SPECIFIED rules, then you should be evaluated on as level a playing field as ANYONE--and that it is unconscionable for ANY judge to do otherwise.

I must say it HORRIFIES me to read, from Dr. Pam's post, that there are carded judges who've said they will dock,or worse, NOT PLACE, horses that don't have martingales....by this action, they are NOT just expressing an opinion, they are REWRITING the RULES themselves--and guess what? That is NOT their job, nor their right!! It is one thing to be 'harsher' than the 'next judge' in how severely you penalize someone for non-adherence to a specified rulebook requirement, IF the rulebooks don't spell it out FOR you; it is quite something else to presume you have the 'right' to NOT EVEN EVALUATE someone when they don't have something that is RULEBOOK-LISTED as OPTIONAL! Believe me, I and my entry dollars would stay away from such 'judges'; I am not worried about 'changing their minds'; but I am just not one to 'bend' to such arrogance for the possibility of a placing. (I no longer even OWN a running martingale, and I SURE wouldn't spend money on one to make some someone who takes that kind of position happy!)

No, nothing much would surprise me, either, as far as breed ring judging goes these days--but that only means that I'm going to be expecting knowledge and non-bias from the person I'm PAYING for their opinion! I am not interested in putting out not-inconsequential sums in entry fees and the like for opinions I can't respect....

One last comment--someone offered that 'not all judges come from a driving background'...that may be so, but IF it is, then it absolutely BEHOOVES such a person to work doubly hard to educate themselve FULLY about the subject IN ITS ENTIRETY--and that cannot be done in one 'seminar'....

Margo

 

[keely2682]

margo

 

[alongman]

I'm afraid I must VIGOROUSLY disagree with Mr. Longman on his position that breeching is essentially of no use in backing the cart! I believe you might need to go out into the 'wider' world of driving, sir---outside the groomed show ring, for instance---or even, in the UNgroomed show ring, which at small shows, is OFTEN encountered, in my experience and observation-- and take another look, before making such a statement. In addition, I see NO 'personal attacks' being made--this business of trying to make virtually every strong, straightforward, and based-on-solid-knowledge-and-experience opinion an 'attack' becomes quite tiresome and leads nowhere, IMO.

I don't necessarily have a position regarding breeching - I'm not one to deduct points for choice of harness unless it blatantly is against the rules. The breeching and "freedom" collar are a disputed area among many people in the industry - the judges' are no exception. Some look at this as comprsing a work/draft harness which is excluded from the pleasure classes. Some do not - thus the gray area is created. I do agree, that until there is clear, concise information regarding this area, there will continue to be confusion regarding its acceptability.

In reference to personal preference, of course this applies. If two animals are presented equally as well adn have relatively no difference, many things may come into the judges' final decision. I will not reference a driving class, but recently had a halter class I officated in which the two Champion animals were equally as stunning and conformationally correct. Ultimately, it comes down to "that one look" that made one animal stand out to me. If, for some judges', that is the type of harness used, then so be it.

The The comment I made regarding the use of breeching comes directly from the Wikipedia Encyclopedia online. I have attached it for your reference.

Breeching (pronounced /ˈbrɪtʃɨŋ/, "britching"). A strap around the horse's haunches allowing it to set back and slow a vehicle, usually hooked to the shafts or pole of the vehicle. Used for a single horse, a pair, or in a larger team, only for the wheelers (the animal or pair closest to the vehicle). The leaders in a team do not have breeching, as they are in front of the shafts or pole and so cannot slow the vehicle. Breeching may also be omitted in fine harness, when the cart is light, and other types, when the braking effort is provided by brakes on the wheels.

You are correct, the majority of my driving comes on flat, solid ground or in the show ring. I have officiated at several shows none of which I consider the ring to be "ungroomed". If a ring is improper for driving, then it should be noted to the show management of your concerns.

As for the personal attack, I guess that's open to interpretation. These comments made regarding a judges' either lack of knowledge in the area or their improper training can be detrimental to this persons' career as both a judge and an exhibitor (I believe the exact wording was A Driving Trainer). Any person with access to the internet is able to deduce who this particular individual was. I would say that if someone felt strongly enough to post the original statements, then they should contact me directly AFTER the show to voice their concern in a private setting or with the show steward present at a show and not in a public forum. Again, each is entitled to their own opinion in the matter.

 

[keely2682]

i deliberately omitted the judge's name from my post so as to not attack her

 

[Minimor]

Like it or not Margo, it's a fact that when it comes to showing you as an exhibitor have choices to make. You can choose to conform to what is considered "standard" or you can choose to show the way you want to show, with the tack you want to use. If you choose the latter, you have to be aware that sometimes you will place down because of that choice! No matter what the rules say, some judges (some people for that matter, not just judges) believe that in the show ring it is not appropriate to use breeching. If a judge has that believe and he has two entries that are mostly equal, one has breeching the other does not, that judge will almost certainly give 1st to the entry that is without breeching. THat judge isn't writing his own rules, he is judging turnout of the entries, and he is picking what he likes to see in turnout.

When we used to show Morgans, there was a long period of time where certain judges penalized horses because of color. The dilute colors were not well accepted in the showring. If you were showing a buckskin or palomino, you could pretty much count on not placing in halter, and in performance it depended on the division. Sometimes a dilute horse could win if his performance was far superior; even then some judges would give that dilute horse the gate. Then it improved to the point where the dilute colors were acceptable (to most judges) in hunter pleasure or western pleasure, but still not in halter or English Pleasure or Park...was that fair? No, but it's the way it was. If you wanted to show a palomino you could, but you had to realize that if you did show your palomino, chances were you weren't going to do very well. Heck, there were even some judges who figured that bay was the accepted Morgan color, and so they would always pick bay horses over chestnuts. Or you go into the ring with western attire and show your horse like a western horse, no matter how nice he is you aren't going to get far. In the world of Morgan in hand classes, horses pretty much have to be shown like saddlebreds--curb bits, tailers, stretched stance, head up, shod up & high stepping...

It's a fact of life--if you chose not to conform, then you take the risk that certain judges will not use your horse. It doesn't mean the judge is stupid, it just means that he has his image of the ideal turnout, and that is what he wants to see.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Just a few additional observations...

I wouldn't regard 'Wikipedia Online' to be a particularly comprehensive nor fully accurate source of information, especially on such a subject.

And Minimor, I guess we'll just have to'agree to disagree'....for I FIRMLY believe that a scenario such as you describe DOES constitute a judge 'rewriting the rules' in their own mind--and I also believe that is NOT proper. YOU BET I have choices to make; I have done so (see below), and would again--and one would be to 'vote with my dollars' and not pay fees for an opinion I can't respect--certainly, not a SECOND time!

You related a story of that very kind of occurance; such kinds of behavior are NOT without precedent in the WHOLE of the horse showing world--certainly no one breed has ever had a 'lock' on that kind of misguided, if not blatantly unethical, kind of occurances--but it appeared that your story was in fact only a verification of what I outlined...

The "you have to do 'such and such' to win" way of thinking and acting in the world of horses has been responsible for many more detrimental than positive actions and results, IMO--and I have been involved in showing horses since the early '70s, and seen more of it than I ever would have wanted!

If you read my posts carefully, I don't believe I ever used the word, "stupid". I personally draw a distinction between "ignorance" and "stupidity"--and believe that "ignorance" can usually be 'fixed' through education, IF the one 'with it' WANTS to improve their level of knowledge.

FWIW--I turned my back on the stock horse(at the time, I was showing APHA, after starting in the QH world) horse show ring around 22-23 years ago, when 'peanut rolling' became well-established, because there was NO way on EARTH I was going to make ANY horse to 'go' like that. It is worse now than then, I believe, and am SAD to say... I know I have never, EVER regretted my decision. I will NOT do that to a horse. PERIOD. It wasn't 'just' because of WP (which wasn't my 'primary' choice of class), but because of the philosophies of 'training' that became increasingly widespread, are still extant, and have 'spread' across the industry.

Margo

 

[garyo]

I have been following this thread with keen interest as I was driving the other horse in question, WCF Buckeye Classical Lightening, along side Keely and Tippy Saturday. The ring was in fact very loose and deep. Lightening was wearing a Lutke fine show harness with breeching, so some of the comments being made about the harness Tippy was wearing does not apply in my case. I do read my rule book and know that breeching is not the norm, but would hardly consider it a gray area as the rules clearly state that breeching is optional. I'm sure we don't need to turn to Wilkepedia as to learn the meaning of optional. Although breeching may not be designed to help a horse to back, in Lightenings case with me driving, it clearly helps.

I did not take offense to the comments made by the Judge as I considered it her personal opinion, and being a beginning driver (Saturday was my 2nd time driving in the ring) I listen to all advice given. I realize that the judge is just giving their opinion of the horse at that particular place and time. But, I do believe that one should not be penalized for simply following the rules, if infact any penalties were given in this case. If breeching is not desired by AMHR then simply change the rule. That would completly eleminate any gray areas.

By the way Keely, you and Tippy both looked great.

Gary

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Now Keely, I'm surprised at you!

You beat 2 national champion driving horses and the previous weekend's regional champion under 3 of 4 judges IN A SPORT HARNESS AND EASY ENTRY CART and all you can find to talk about is one judge's helpfully-intended comment?? Honestly, girl! *LOL* Technically the only thing she said that was actually wrong (as opposed to strongly debatable) was that it didn't help backing. The rest of it was one person's opinion but not technically inaccurate. You CAN get away without breeching on flat ground, it IS most important for off-road and mountain driving, and the rest is opinion. When I go into the ring for a Country Pleasure class with my sidecheck so ridiculously loose it's flopping I fully expect the judges to comment on it. They're trying to be helpful and if I were training strictly for the breed ring correct usage of the check would, in fact, produce a more successful horse more quickly. I simply thank them and explain that we do carriage driving where checks are not used and they smile and accept my reasoning and we all move on. I certainly wouldn't argue with the judge in your case but might have smiled and politely explained my concerns with the footing then thanked them and left. I sympathize with your frustration but it isn't worth getting annoyed over. Not when the other three judges placed you so well!

Adam, I reply to you below but I want to be clear that this is not aimed at you as an individual. I quote you because you were so kind as to type out the rules so I don't have to!

I agree with you that a judge has every right to mark down a turnout if they don't feel it is appropriate or if they prefer the look of another driver's entry; that's what judging is all about! It's one person's opinion. And there's no doubt it's important for each exhibitor to know the rules before entering the ring regardless of what association they are showing under. But by the same token the rules must be properly understood and followed by both exhibitor and judge and I hope in this case I have something to contribute towards that end. So here we go....

2) If you read the AMHR rulebook (pg. 253-260) you will find the very specific rules regarding the type of harness, attire, etc... for the Country Pleasure class. Keep in mind, proper harness accounts for 30% of your total score. If you get docked in this area, you may have gotten a lower placing. I have included a brief segment of it:
Part 14 – Country Pleasure Driving

A. General

1. Country Pleasure driving is to be shown to a two

wheel cart only. Bike tires or wooden wheels are

permissible.

2. Harness in the country pleasure division must be of

the light type. Breastcollars or light collars are

permissible, but no full hames allowed. Britching

is optional. Side or over-checks are required. When

shown, the horse must have blinders (round or

square) and the check must be hooked. No other

appliances may be used on a driving horse other

than the harness. (Example: no fly nets on the ears,

face, or body).

3. Bits in the pleasure driving division shall be of the

snaffle type. No liverpool bits, curb chains or curb

straps are allowed.

4. Martingales may or may not be used.

5. Check bits may be used but are not required.

A freedom collar is a gray area in the definition of what is considered a light-type harness. Depending upon how it looks on the horse, some judges may consider this to be pushing the "collar" definition which is not allowed in a country pleasure class.

...The breeching and "freedom" collar are a disputed area among many people in the industry - the judges' are no exception. Some look at this as comprsing a work/draft harness which is excluded from the pleasure classes. Some do not - thus the gray area is created. I do agree, that until there is clear, concise information regarding this area, there will continue to be confusion regarding its acceptability.

Perhaps this is where we run into the confusion. In the larger world of driving there are such clear and concise definitions of the bolded terms and it is expected that all drivers would be familiar with them. "Light harness" means anything that isn't a full draft harness. Draft harness is not just a work harness but one that has some very specific characteristics like dangling harness brasses on the forehead, usually triple straps on the breeching, a neck collar, often nickle or brass spots along all the straps, chain side checks, etc. etc. This is the Budweiser Clydesdale stuff! Anything else from fine harness to Standardbred racing gear to carriage and sport harnesses are considered "light harness." Even drafters have work harnesses and show harnesses but both are considered "heavy harness" because of the style they are made in.

"Full hames" unless I'm mistaken refers to a Scotch collar with the big A-shaped peak behind the neck or any hames ending in an upward fork with metal balls on the tips. I know for a fact that "light collar" refers to a buggy-style neck collar where the hames (the metal bars that support the weight and attach to the traces) simply encircle the leather neck collar and buckle together with straps or kidney links at the top and bottom. According to the rule quoted above even those are acceptable under the definition of light harness so I can't see how the Freedom Collar (with no hames whatsoever) would be debatable. It's a contoured breast collar, that's all. ALL breastcollars, by the rules above, are legal. So is breeching regardless of whether the judge considers it only something for training and off-road work or not.

Now as we mentioned before if the judge considers that look to be non-flattering they are certainly within their rights to mark the entry down for that impression, but I would hope instead that the judge would educate themselves enough to understand it's purpose and at least respect the exhibitor's stated right to use it without penalty. Only 30% of the score is on the harness so there is no excuse for a judge giving an exhibitor the gate based solely on their use of unusual but legal equipment. (This doesn't apply to Keely's post but others here have mentioned it apparently happening. We all know there may have been more reasons than that for the low placings but I suspect sometimes it really is the harness.) Sure, some nontraditional competitors are novices using poor harness out of ignorance. Others are using very CORRECT harness that the judges simply aren't used to seeing! OH!

Now, regarding breeching-

Also, responding to a prior comment, breeching is NOT used to back a horse or ease in the process. It is specifically put on the harness to assist in the slowing of the vehicle. Quite honestly, if there is that much weight in the vehicle, then the breeching alone is NOT making this a comfortable drive for the miniature horse. Are breechings used "in the mountains"? Certainly. For their intended use of slowing or stopping a vehicle. I cannot remember, from my own driving training/exhibiting, when I've had a situation where breeching would have benefitted me in the Midwest.

The comment I made regarding the use of breeching comes directly from the Wikipedia Encyclopedia online. I have attached it for your reference.
Breeching (pronounced /ˈbrɪtʃɨŋ/, "britching"). A strap around the horse's haunches allowing it to set back and slow a vehicle, usually hooked to the shafts or pole of the vehicle. Used for a single horse, a pair, or in a larger team, only for the wheelers (the animal or pair closest to the vehicle). The leaders in a team do not have breeching, as they are in front of the shafts or pole and so cannot slow the vehicle. Breeching may also be omitted in fine harness, when the cart is light, and other types, when the braking effort is provided by brakes on the wheels.

The Wikipedia definition is correct but, as is so often the case with Wiki sources, is neither comprehensive nor complete. I have yet to meet a single teacher from elementary school to doctoral professors who will allow Wikipedia to be used as a valid source on any sort of research paper, and for good reason! OH! Yes, breeching is used to slow a vehicle. It's also used to stop a vehicle, and by logical extension to BACK the vehicle. It's purpose is to hold the cart back. Period. And when does the cart press forward more than when the horse is backing up into it?

I've got a library full of carriage driving books and could go into great detail about the history and function of breeching in any application you choose to name but will save ya'll the annoyance of hearing me pontificate. Suffice it to say that breeching is used to keep the saddle from pressing forward into the withers and to allow the horse to use the large muscles of his hindquarters to hold off the cart rather than a flimsy band around his barrel held back only by an uncomfortably tight strap under his tail. It's a comfort thing and as many a horse will tell you, it DOES work if properly adjusted. That said, I can well imagine that in the Midwest the necessity for such a device would be a bit harder to fathom!

A well-adjusted show harness can be nearly as effective on flat ground depending on the load being moved and the footing but I've seen plenty that aren't doing the horse any favors at all and in those cases they'd be better off with breeching even in a ring. The heavier the load or the deeper the footing, the more important and helpful it is.

Again Adam, I'm not trying to shoot you, personally, down here in any way. My goal was merely to clarify the wording of the rule for all and to provide more accurate information regarding the use of breeching from the perspective of someone who has studied the subject extensively both from books and actual driving experience both with and without it. I hope my efforts were helpful!

Leia

 

[alongman]

Much appreciated Leia. I will definitely bring the contents of this post to the Judges' committee. I do know that this area and the subsequent rules have caused confusion, "interpretation of rules", or personal preference to come into play. I think that for the sake of sanity, it must be clarified.

 

[keely2682]

thank you leia

as usual, a very thorough and articulant answer

definately helps clarify

yes 3 out of 4 isn't bad for leaving my houghton and lutke at home

75% of the judges I encountered this weekend weren't distracted by my nontraditional turnout

gary, who was driving lightening with breeching, politely thanked the judge for her helpful comments

i was too shocked to respond, but was not rude. i just smiled

i just love my sport harness and might use it more often!

however, due to the open tugs, i will ignore the judge's suggestion of removing the breeching

 

[Jill]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but my take on it is that when I am in the ring, I'm not going to buck the system or try and start a new trend (ie, I'm going to go with the flow). At home is where we do it the way I like and in the ring, it's about the judge's opinion not my own. Maybe in hindsight, with the difficult footing, it would have been wise to ask if breeching would be acceptable considering the deep sand (?).

 

[Sue_C.]

Maybe in hindsight, with the difficult footing, it would have been wise to ask if breeching would be acceptable considering the deep sand

I do not agree that one should not have to ask permission to use an accepted piece of equipment, and in the rulebook, it IS acceptable. Not only that, but with open tugs, it is a MOST necessary piece of equipment.

This happens in the "Open" ring as well, as far as judges personal opinions on equipment/dress. Take for example, a driving apron. In the rulebook, it is an optional acessory, but most judges won't even consider an entry who isn't wearing one.

Yes, we do pay for the judge's opinion...but I expect to pay for the judge's EDUCATED opinion...not one so rudely ignorant of the BASIC rules of driving safety.

 

[Jill]

I don't know... I just know what looks right to my eye, what I'm used to seeing at shows and any light harness class of other breeds and breeching isn't part of the picture. Of course, just my opinion -- I know it so well

 

[susanne]

Of course, I live by the philosophy "If it ain't broke...BREAK IT!" (LOL!)

But that aside, if I weren't already firm in doing right by my horse first, I would go by the fact that the majority of judges at this show placed Keely FIRST. Therefore "going with the flow" would mean the breeching stays.

Also, I agree that I am paying for the judge's opinion; therefore, I'm the employer and the judge is the employee...or I could say that I'm the customer, and the customer is always right.

Okay...sorry, Jill! I swore I was never going to answer until I've reached the point of optimum caffeination, and I'm not there yet...so I'm still feeling contrary...

 

[Jill]

Also, I agree that I am paying for the judge's opinion; therefore, I'm the employer and the judge is the employee...or I could say that I'm the customer, and the customer is always right.

If that were how it worked, I think show secretaries could just order blue ribbons in six packs as most people would feel, or at least say, that's what their own horse deserved

Like I said, only giving my perspective based on things I've seen and experienced

 

[Neil]

My problem with threads like this one is that they are somewhat one sided. Two posters have posted their first hand experience in the ring at a show where the rest of us were not there and yet we still manage to have an opinion. What is lacking is the voice of the judge.

I suppose I could pm Keely and ask who the judge in question was but I didn't. What I do see, and trust me I could be wrong, is only one driving trainer judge on the judging slate and that was a male and not a female. Wouldn't it be nice to hear what the judge was thinking when the comment was made?

 

[susanne]

I think I need to find a "tongue-in-cheek" smiley icon...

However, the bottom line for me is that I'd use breeching no matter what. Of course, I'll also focus on ADS, since my interest is in where the focus is on the art of driving and in the ongoing process of schooling an excellent driving horse (as only a callow newbie can say it...)

I do agree, Jill, that one becomes accustomed to what one sees. I am accustomed to breeching and think that horses look unbalanced without it. I also see that a good horse looks great under even a full work harness, whereas a lesser horse can get lost beneath a Lutke.

I'll also add, once again, that a breed show driving class is not about driving per se but rather a "halter class in motion."

Neil, I would agree with you if the judge were being named, but as said judge remains anonymous, this becomes a general discussion of show rules vs. trends and opinions, as well as the merits of breeching in the show ring.

Personally, breeching or no breeching, if the footing in a show ring was so bad as to require breeching, I would be tempted to ask for a refund on any driving classes. I'd hope that we could expect acceptable footing in the ring.