Just got The Journal in the mail

[cretahillsgal]

But would it not be called abusive to have people cut their miniatures hooves down till they bleed or have no heel left, just so they can be measured in? But you also have to realize you can not condem everyone as for the likes or preferences of a few.

I never said that. Yes I believe that to be abusive too.

AND I never said anything about shetland breeders as a whole. I do believe that a majority of shetland/show pony breeders do whats right and keep their horses feet at a comfortable lenth/angle. I am only talking about a select few that really look awful in the Journal.

 

[tagalong]

You all have gotten so way off topic in defending your Shetlands ponies that I wonder if all Shetland exhibitors and breeders are like you guys. It has put a sour taste in my mouth. You have taken my words and twisted them to what you want to hear.

How in earth was it off topic when this thread was about the shoeing/feet on specific Shetlands- that YOU started with some exaggeration that the one pony's hooves were as long as his cannon bones!? They were on topic and I am not sure why you are taking their words amd twisting them to be what you want to hear. And why on earth would you then add the little dig that maybe all Shetland breeders and exhibitors are "like you guys" . That was a bit rude and completely uncalled for, IMO.

So you guys can all call me ignorant, and sling the insults at my supposed lack of knowledge and I will just grin and shake my head.

Yet it is okay for you to say that they are ignorant and sling insults about their supposed lack of knowledge - and grin about it.... ?

Hmmmm.... I am thinking that some do not realize that some driving minis get shod for training and then have the shoes pulled before they go to a show... the only purpose for that is to try and enhance their gait...

If I could get into my photo website (seems to be offline this morning) - I have photos there from a Shetland sale in 1949 - where tails actually were set and the feet are... interesting... on some of the ponies. Are they still like that? NO.

 

[Sandee]

Just for comparison I'd like to post the same horse with and without shoes. Here's my Shetland/mini driven by my trainer Jason Prince first at a Shetland show with shoes and then at Nationals without shoes.

You can see that he's not quite as high without the shoes but that he is still nearly level. And this is a SMALL shetland so you can imagine the difference with a bigger one.

Here is a picture of me at Nationals. See the difference in the leg. I'm nowhere as good a driver as Jason. He gets the boy to sit back on his haunches and move out. Oh, and that is a fake tail for the Park Harness.

 

[Cavallini Farms]

Sandy, I felt the same way. I can't even look at it.

As a farrier, it just kills me to think someone could do that to their horse for a $2 ribbon and some "glory". Tradition or not, its painful for the horse for their hooves to be so long. Like many horse show torture practices, I think it needs to change. I'm only referring to what I saw in the Journal, not the beauty in the pics above.

A horse either naturally has it, or it doesn't.

 

[maestoso]

It's not the judges responsibility to place a horse lower, if the exhibitor is within rules and guidelines. Personally, I would be disgusted with a judge who placed a quality horse lower just because it was their personal opinion that the shoes were too weighted, even though the exhibitor wasn't breaking any rules.

I think the term abusive is a little harsh.... are any of you vets and/or anatomy experts and are positive that this is hurting the horse? I don't show ponies and know nothing about it, and because of that, I am not going to judge or make opinions.

As you probably know, complaining on LB won't make changes. I would recommend getting involved and try to work towards the changes that you feel are appropriate. Another option is to simply not support AMHR, if you feel that your personal values do not align with those of the organization. A third option would be to continue to hash it out here, where you will become frustrated and heated, and the ending result will be absolutely nothing.

Regardless of your action of choice, I would recommend educating yourself fully on any topic you chose to attack.

 

[cretahillsgal]

Just for comparison I'd like to post the same horse with and without shoes. Here's my Shetland/mini driven by my trainer Jason Prince first at a Shetland show with shoes and then at Nationals without shoes.

View attachment 4260

You can see that he's not quite as high without the shoes but that he is still nearly level. And this is a SMALL shetland so you can imagine the difference with a bigger one.

Here is a picture of me at Nationals. View attachment 4261 See the difference in the leg. I'm nowhere as good a driver as Jason. He gets the boy to sit back on his haunches and move out. Oh, and that is a fake tail for the Park Harness.

This horse is very pretty! And I see nothing wrong at all with his hoof length, shoes, etc.

 

[Sandy B]

Instead of explaining the hows and why you shoe your ponies like that, you begin insulting. In the beginning topic, I mentioned AMHR, I did not single out Shetland ponies. It was the Shetland Pony people that jumped down my throat for having an opinion. As one other poster said, the majority of Shetland Pony exhibitors probably do shoe their ponies in normal keg shoes with no pads and weighted shoes and do show their ponies with the natural abilities God gave them. They began the personal comment slinging at me that was rude. Not me.

Where did I say that "they" were ignorant? I said I can shake "my" head and grin about it as I know better.

What is done behind closed doors I can not comment on. If people are shoeing minis and pulling them off before they show, well that is their business. The minis will lose their action that they were training with IF they really did have shoes on by the time they get to the show pen. Minis are not immune from abusive training either.

ONE MORE TIME- I am not commenting about what was going on in 1949. LOL! I am talking about what I saw in the CURRENT issue of The Journal.

How in earth was it off topic when this thread was about the shoeing/feet on specific Shetlands- that YOU started with some exaggeration that the one pony's hooves were as long as his cannon bones!? They were on topic and I am not sure why you are taking their words amd twisting them to be what you want to hear. And why on earth would you then add the little dig that maybe all Shetland breeders and exhibitors are "like you guys" . That was a bit rude and completely uncalled for, IMO.

Yet it is okay for you to say that they are ignorant and sling insults about their supposed lack of knowledge - and grin about it.... ?

Hmmmm.... I am thinking that some do not realize that some driving minis get shod for training and then have the shoes pulled before they go to a show... the only purpose for that is to try and enhance their gait...

If I could get into my photo website (seems to be offline this morning) - I have photos there from a Shetland sale in 1949 - where tails actually were set and the feet are... interesting... on some of the ponies. Are they still like that? NO.

 

[Sandy B]

In this picture I can see the shoes on him and while they are built up, they are not as excessive as some of the photos in The Journal (current issue). This same pony without shoes is simply stunning! He looks happy and more natural.

Just for comparison I'd like to post the same horse with and without shoes. Here's my Shetland/mini driven by my trainer Jason Prince first at a Shetland show with shoes and then at Nationals without shoes.

View attachment 4260

You can see that he's not quite as high without the shoes but that he is still nearly level. And this is a SMALL shetland so you can imagine the difference with a bigger one.

Here is a picture of me at Nationals. View attachment 4261 See the difference in the leg. I'm nowhere as good a driver as Jason. He gets the boy to sit back on his haunches and move out. Oh, and that is a fake tail for the Park Harness.

 

[ohmt]

SandyB-the way your first topic was worded was an attack. Why should they explain the how's and why's when all you did was accuse and did not ask those questions?

I didn't see anything about AMHA in the original post, but am on my phone so maybe I missed it? It was all about the over ponies and the shetlands competing in Congress. You can not blame some of the owners for coming on here and getting 'heated'.

Aside from that, I do applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in. I also can't blame someone for saying something about what they think is mistreatment of an animal. Maybe different wording and asking for an explanation first next time? Just a suggestion

 

[Sandy B]

Exactly! Again I am not referring to the Shetland Pony breed as a whole, I am talking about the few pictures that were appalling in the current issue of The Journal. Its excessive in every way. The longevity of those certain ponies will be hindered.

Sandy, I felt the same way. I can't even look at it.

As a farrier, it just kills me to think someone could do that to their horse for a $2 ribbon and some "glory". Tradition or not, its painful for the horse for their hooves to be so long. Like many horse show torture practices, I think it needs to change. I'm only referring to what I saw in the Journal, not the beauty in the pics above.

A horse either naturally has it, or it doesn't.

 

[Sandy B]

First, double the toe length of a natural hoof and then add pads and weighted shoes. It is not rocket science.

Sandy, I am simply curious to know what you believe are the weights involved with these "heavy" shoes?

Exactly!

I think I know which couple of pictures in the Journal you are refering to Sandy. And I agree with you that I think that letting their feet grow that long is abusive. A little length would be normal, not double the length that they should be. Imagine going to someones farm and seeing any other breed of horse with feet like that. We would be likely to call the humane society for neglect. I don't care if it is a shetland, hackney, quarter horse or thoroughbred. The anatomy of the hoof is the same for all the breeds. I think letting them grow the way some of them do, has to put strain on their legs and joints that will cause pain or problems later on in life.

I don't know anything about the shoes that are used on the shetlands so I won't comment on those.

 

[Sandy B]

"I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies."



Here is my first post. It was MY OPINION. It was about what AMHR or Congress allowed. There were no questions asked as I did not need an explanation since I have been involved in the Morgans I know what those shoes are used for and why. Those shoes are why in the Morgan industry the Park classes are practically non existent and the pleasure classes are smaller and smaller. The arthritic results, suspensory problems and torn tendons end the careers of some incredible horses.



Again, I am not a pansy when it comes to performance horses. I know all disciplines and breeds can and do extreme measures to enhance performance. Some are worse than others. Remember the saying- "no hoof no horse". The hoof is where it all begins, physically. If anyone disagrees, I go back to my challenge, put on some tall wedge heels and wear them 24/7 making sure to be on your feet 80% of the day, in every activity. Lets see how you feel- 1 month out, 6 months out, 1 year out, etc...

SandyB-the way your first topic was worded was an attack. Why should they explain the how's and why's when all you did was accuse and did not ask those questions?

I didn't see anything about AMHA in the original post, but am on my phone so maybe I missed it? It was all about the over ponies and the shetlands competing in Congress. You can not blame some of the owners for coming on here and getting 'heated'.

Aside from that, I do applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in. I also can't blame someone for saying something about what they think is mistreatment of an animal. Maybe different wording and asking for an explanation first next time? Just a suggestion

 

[ohmt]

I am not taking sides in this, but again, you can NOT get upset with those that came on and stated their opinions regarding your opinions, and you shouldn't follow up with saying they should've answered questions that you didn't ask. I hope I am shedding a little light here-i understand that we as people jump all over each other during arguments and don't play fair because it is just human nature-in the heat of the moment. This thread COULD be very informative had there not been all of the 'stating of opinions with a bit of sneering and jabbing' going on.

What I really don't like is the insuation of others being stupid. Now that is extremely uncalled for no matter how different their opinion is.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

 

[Sandy B]

I am not upset with people stating their opinions, after all, this is a forum. I did not attack any one person, breed or call names. If they felt so wronged, they had every right to explain their side, not start attacking me and pretty much insinuating that I am stupid. A difference of opinion is what makes the world go around. I apologize to anyone who feels like I personally attacked them. I purposely did not say a name, show a edited picture or an example of a picture as I wanted to let others look for themselves at The Journal and form their own opinions.

I am not taking sides in this, but again, you can NOT get upset with those that came on and stated their opinions regarding your opinions, and you shouldn't follow up with saying they should've answered questions that you didn't ask. I hope I am shedding a little light here-i understand that we as people jump all over each other during arguments and don't play fair because it is just human nature-in the heat of the moment. This thread COULD be very informative had there not been all of the 'stating of opinions with a bit of sneering and jabbing' going on.

What I really don't like is the insuation of others being stupid. Now that is extremely uncalled for no matter how different their opinion is.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

 

[tagalong]

If they felt so wronged, they had every right to explain their side, not start attacking me and pretty much insinuating that I am stupid.

But it was perfectly okay for you to say others were stupid and to sneer and condescend... ??

What I really don't like is the insuation of others being stupid. Now that is extremely uncalled for no matter how different their opinion is.

Exactly right, ohmt.

n the beginning topic, I mentioned AMHR, I did not single out Shetland ponies.

HUH? Yes you did, Sandy B..... please note... your words...

One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level.

Congress is not AMHR. You know that. You did single out the pony/ponies - and exaggerated.

Maybe, as others have said, if you voiced your concerns without sneers and sniping, then you would not get responses back that are in the same vein - and that you then take offense to. You reap what you sow... and better wording and less of an "attack" mode might have helped.

 

[Sandy B]

Tagalong-

Please quote me where I said a person was stupid. And when did I first sneer or defend myself? Was is before I was attacked or after I was attacked?

I mentioned AMHR & "over" ponies.

And you judge me. "Congress is not AMHR. You know that. You did single out the pony/ponies - and exaggerated." Really Tagalong? Again, I mentioned "over" and AMHR. I had no idea that Congress is not a AMHR event. I have not been "in to" minis all that long. Why would I have said AMHR would allow IF I knew Congress had nothing to do with AMHR? And it is my bad for calling "over" minis and Shetlands "ponies". They are all "ponies" to me and I know I will be spanked by the mini breeders for calling the true miniatures, ponies. I do know that there are some Shetlands that are also AMHA & AMHR, right? When I think of AMHR, i think of anything over 34", again sorry.

I was referring to the current issue of The Journal, that I believe is the official magazine of the AMHR, about a show called Congress, and a few pictures of what looks to be "small horses" or maybe a pony, that has long feet and heavily built up shoes on and several with obvious gingered behinds.

And you are saying I exaggerated. How did I exaggerate? Please explain.

And please, tell me how my ORIGINAL post (my opinion) was sneering and sniping?

But it was perfectly okay for you to say others were stupid and to sneer and condescend... ??

Exactly right, ohmt.

HUH? Yes you did, Sandy B..... please note... your words...

Congress is not AMHR. You know that. You did single out the pony/ponies - and exaggerated.

Maybe, as others have said, if you voiced your concerns without sneers and sniping, then you would not get responses back that are in the same vein - and that you then take offense to. You reap what you sow... and better wording and less of an "attack" mode might have helped.

 

[tagalong]

I am not going to get into a back and forth with you, Sandy. You cannot see that you came off as a bit confrontational and sneering - and so I will leave it at that. Congress is Shetlands only, and it is obvious from those Congress photos that they are not all miniatures 38" and under. There are better ways of having a discussion.

Exaggeration = feet long as his cannon bones.

By example, I would not come onto a reining forum and start steaming and sneering about how some trainers pick at horse's heads constantly (or in some cases haul on their mouths) and spur relentlessy - nag, nag, nag - and IMO how robotic some of the horses have become. I would ask in a nonconfrontational manner why people chose to do that and what was the result they were looking for by doing that...

 

[Cavallini Farms]

I read Sandy's post as being shocked that the hooves are so clearly overgrown, on purpose, in order to get "better movement". It is a fact, not an opinion, its painful to the horse and that is one reason they step higher. They HAVE to in order to get around those uncomfortable toes.

Imagine, if you will, that your feet were twice as long as they are right now. How would you walk? Stepping high and looking really fancy I'm sure, but you'd be hurting.

I stand right there with you Sandy B. I'm sorry you are taking a bashing for standing up for these ponies, but you don't stand alone.

 

[Sandy B]

I appreciate you informing me that Congress is Shetlands. And NO it is not obvious to me that they are not under 38". There are pictures of 30" mini's that look like a full sized Arabian. Your grasping at straws here to pick at me. I am not looking for a back and forth either. I just asked you to state where you got all your "facts" and "statements" in regards to my opinions. I am not sure what a "modern" is, maybe you could explain that too.

As far as my comment about "feet as long as his cannon bone", we must not be looking at the same picture as the one I am talking about is close to it.

This is a miniature horse forum. I am not "steaming or sneering" first off and not on a forum that is all about showing "over" miniatures or pony breeds in the classes that shoe up their animals. If you did come on to a reining horse forum I would have to agree with a lot that you are saying, about the robotic, intimidated looking reining horses out there. I highly doubt you would agree with any answer you got because most would jump on the defensive wagon right away as they know what they are doing(intimidating and being heavy handed) is wrong. I believe I mentioned that ALL BREED and DISCIPLINES can be excessive and abusive.

I am not going to get into a back and forth with you, Sandy. You cannot see that you came off as a bit confrontational and sneering - and so I will leave it at that. Congress is Shetlands only, and it is obvious from those Congress photos that they are not all miniatures 38" and under. Moderns are not my thing, but there are better ways of having a discussion.

Exaggeration = feet long as his cannon bones.

By example, I would not come onto a reining forum and start steaming and sneering about how some trainers pick at horse's heads constantly (or in some cases haul on their mouths) and spur relentlessy - nag, nag, nag - and IMO how robotic some of the horses have become. I would ask in a nonconfrontational manner why people chose to do that and what was the result they were looking for by doing that...

 

[Sandy B]

Thank you Cavallini Farm. I appreciate the support and know MANY others back me but are afraid to speak up or they may get blasted too.

I read Sandy's post as being shocked that the hooves are so clearly overgrown, on purpose, in order to get "better movement". It is a fact, not an opinion, its painful to the horse and that is one reason they step higher. They HAVE to in order to get around those uncomfortable toes.

Imagine, if you will, that your feet were twice as long as they are right now. How would you walk? Stepping high and looking really fancy I'm sure, but you'd be hurting.

I stand right there with you Sandy B. I'm sorry you are taking a bashing for standing up for these ponies, but you don't stand alone.