Just some thoughts on type, show quality etc

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Good post Kay!

Critiquing any horse off a photos - I'm the queen of ugly horse photos (humans, dogs and trees too!), so I won't judge a horse by a photo - either good or bad. I've seen horses that are properly presented and handled that are photo'd or shown and it's amazing the difference in the right hands or with the right photographer. It works the same way in reverse.

As of only breeding conformationally perfect - what is that? If you took a poll on which mini is the closest to perfect no one can agree - well a few judges did with Miss Kentucky for a few years in a row but I'm sure as many of us that love that look, there are just as many that don't! So how can anyone say they only breed 'perfect'? Let me know where to get those as I've yet to see them.

Where you're correct Kay, is the really good breeders know their stock and what to cross to 'try' to get the best shot possible at conformationally correct improvement of that cross. That takes a great educated eye, lots of knowledge about the bloodlines, their horses and what they can/do produce and in most cases some mistakes on the way to getting that knowledge/experience!

I honestly think most of us are trying to do our best in breeding programs. I know my tastes, ideas, thoughts and knowledge have changed over the years as hopefully anyone trying to improve their own program will too. Some people are just more passionate about their program in a 'hit you over the head' way!

I'm glad we have horse shows, but halter classes (which I love!) are beauty pageants where the best horse doesn't always win, but the best one at that moment (barring political decisions) does! It doesn't point to a horses useability, temperament or breedability but that in front of that specific judge it is meeting that judge's idea of what a mini should be.

I believe the people we worry about most don't read this forum, they're out churning out foals, puppies, kittens or (insert species) whatever because they can. Those types can't be easily stopped.

Thanks Kay for bringing this up!

 

[MountainViewMiniatures]

This is a great thread! I usually try not to answer critques because as mentioned you can make a good horse look bad with poor photos. I am giving my opinion based on the photo which isn't always fair to the horse and what I like or would breed may not be the same someone else would. I try on my site to take pictures to complement the horses but I am guilty of having some bad photos too (poor Fannie my black and white mini mare has really awful pictures and I just got to change them- the only thing that looks like her is her coat pattern! and I would never ask for a critque on these photos!) I agree, There are no perfect horses and breeding is blending the stallion and the mare to out produce themselves. Rabbit said it best though - if you are going to post bad pictures or even if the horse really has poor conformation who really out produces herself don't be surprised at the opinions you'll get

PS Nancy- I loved the Stewart's and their palomino stallion Skip Tama (now I'm dating myself! :bgrin )

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

Wouldn't it be boring if we all had "that" perfect horse? I would surely say so since there would be no need for a National/World show. It wouldn't be worth it. I know my horses are far from being perfect. But I bought them as PETS first and then as a show horses. I have to say we have our fair share of wins. I have not bred any of my horses, even though I have thought about it. We have been thinking about breeding Millie and Blue to see what get and then geld him but at this point we don't think that will even be worth it. However if we did..The foal would never leave our family unless it had to. I repeat unless it had to. I am not into the lil ones to breed. I simply enjoy my lil guys....Having said that I could have cared less about breedings, show records and plenty other things. I have to say I got lucky with Millie. And Blue I was pretty picky. I had 16 horses to choose from so I guess I wasn't too picky. Our horses are big spoiled furry kids to kids to us.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I may annoy a few people with this but here goes. It does not matter what species is being shown this same discussion goes round and round. Competition does this. Each wants to be the winner, the best, and each person believes firmly that they have the best, or are working toward the best.

The people who are successful buy and breed the best they can, then present them the best they can. They pay attention, they watch and they learn. They then try to do better. The key is being open to knowing no matter how much you know, no matter how great yours is, there is always something to learn and there is always an improvement to be made.

When striving for an unattainable goal this is the only way to succeed. The art of breeding is the attempt to create perfection therefore an unattainable goal, it is the challenge that is supposed to be gratifying.

I have yet to meet anyone who said "I am going to buy the worst horses I can find and produce losers"

:

:

I agree but have to add that many people, on here, have stated that they are NOT trying (and I am afraid that reading between the lines that means 'I can't because my horses aren't good enough and i think you are a snob because you do') to breed a Champion, I am just breeding "pets" - whatever that is!!!

I am trying to breed Champions, and I have done so.

If my horses are bought, as Shirley's dog was, to be pets I am delighted- I have no need for my horses to be sold to be shown, I do that part myself.

But my AIM is to breed Champions.

Of course not every foal is perfect, no-one breeds "perfect" and no horse is perfect, that is why we continue to breed!!!

But to put up bad photos, ask for an honest opinion, argue when you get one and get the original responder flamed for being "mean" makes a nonsense of the whole process.

Maybe we need yet another Forum, specifically for critiques????

:

 

[Jill]

I may annoy a few people with this but here goes. It does not matter what species is being shown this same discussion goes round and round. Competition does this. Each wants to be the winner, the best, and each person believes firmly that they have the best, or are working toward the best.

The people who are successful buy and breed the best they can, then present them the best they can. They pay attention, they watch and they learn. They then try to do better. The key is being open to knowing no matter how much you know, no matter how great yours is, there is always something to learn and there is always an improvement to be made.

When striving for an unattainable goal this is the only way to succeed. The art of breeding is the attempt to create perfection therefore an unattainable goal, it is the challenge that is supposed to be gratifying.

I have yet to meet anyone who said "I am going to buy the worst horses I can find and produce losers"

:

:

I very much agree with what you've said.

Also, I think a lot of times with these types of discussions, there are a couple different motivating factors, almost to the point of being funny in some cases.

 

[kaykay]

Also, I think a lot of times with these types of discussions, there are a couple different motivating factors, almost to the point of being funny in some cases.

Jill i have no idea what that is supposed to mean? I really think this discussion has gone well

I only did this post because its something I have been thinking over as I watch different posts. Scarey the things that run through my mind LOL. It is a little confusing as I lumped a lot of issues all in one post.

If someone wants a critique I would say this. Take 4 GOOD pictures. One from the side with the horse standing SQUARE. One from the front so you can see the chest and front legs (and the head). One from the back so you can clearly see the rump and back legs. And dont take the pictures standing above the horse! get down to eye level and take it especially if its a 34 and under horse. Yes this is a lot of work but if you want an accurate critique thats what it takes

The great breeders I know can see potential. They dont just look at the horse but also what is behind the horse and what it will take to get that horse to produce the best it possibly can. It is an art!

 

[Becky]

As someone who has been breeding miniatures for awhile now (started in 1989) and having full size horses for many years prior to that, I have seen the breed evolve tremendously in that period of time.

Though we notice and pay attention to the horses that are winning in the show ring, those are not necessarily the horses that are home in the pasture. By this I mean that *some* top winning halter and driving horses are artificially made. I would research carefully any horses whose bloodline or type appealed to me by looking at them carefully in natural condition if at all possible before basing my breeding program on what I see in the show ring.

Here, I don't base my breeding program on any certain bloodline. I breed for a certain type of horse and strive to use that type in my breeding program. If they don't produce my expectations, those horses are culled ruthlessly. It doesn't necessarily mean they are poor quality individuals or less than conformationally desirable; it just means that they don't fit my needs or desires.

One long time Arabian breeder and judge once said that we were breeding the bone out of our miniature horses. And she made this statement back in the early 90's! I'm seeing this to some degree in the show ring today. Horses that are too refined and too narrow winning halter classes. They look like a piece of paper on legs. Although, I like a refined bone structure personally, that horse must also have substance!

One big fault I see in todays' horses, are low set necks. Ewe necks. I'm amazed that these horses are winning top honors in the show ring. The right handler can make those horses appear to have good necks to show, but in reality the horses' necks are set on very low and are normally ewe necks. I wonder what would happen if instead of having a handler to show the horse, the horses were tied up along the rail with no trainers or handlers and only judges in the ring? The show winners might have a different outcome!

And then there's the issue of weight. A thin horse is never going to appear conformationally correct. Too many people associate refinement with weight, which couldn't be further from the truth. Bone structure will tell whether a horse is refined or course. I will say though, that an underweight horse will nearly always look ewe necked and short hipped when in reality, it may not be at all.

After breeding and owning miniatures for 18 years now, I have concluded without a doubt that many of the undesireable faults in this breed are NOT genetic. Granted, there are and always will be genetic disorders, but many, many defects and deformities are environmental and nutritional issues.

You don't have to show to be breeding quality horses. But those that are breeding quality, do pay attention to where the breed is headed. Anybody that is breeding should take this role very seriously be it someone who breeds for one foal a year or someone breeding for 100. We are ALL impacting this breed in one way or another.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

After breeding and owning miniatures for 18 years now, I have concluded without a doubt that many of the undesireable faults in this breed are NOT genetic. Granted, there are and always will be genetic disorders, but many, many defects and deformities are environmental and nutritional issues.

Becky not to argue with you honestly (just making that clear since when writing hard to tell what someone is doing and why)

But what type of things do you feel are environmental or nutritional as opposed to genetic?

I have only been breeding for about 11-12 years now so not quite as long as you however in that time I have come to the conclusion myself that weak hind ends are not being bred out and therefore are genetic and a HUGE problem in minis this includes weak hips, poor croups, very straight stifles (which can lead to locking), long backs, short legs of course not the occasional cow hocked ect that happens in every breed but there are some things I find very specific in numbers anyway to minis

Guess I am just trying to see if you mean conformational issues or actual deformities?

 

[Becky]

Lisa,

I guess I had one thing in my head

: when typing and didn't make that clear. Yes, there are basic conformational issues that we should be breeding away from. Such as the low set, ewe necks that I mentioned as well as all of the conformational problems that you referred to.

I was referring more specifically to things such as off bites and other problems normally considered as 'dwarfy' in this breed. I firmly believe that many (though not all) of these problems are 'man made' in one way or another and they are not necessarily genetic.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Oh ok LOL that makes alot more sense to me

Thanks!

 

[miniwhinny]

Like people have said, type is type and "each to his/her own". Conformation is something else. No matter what type you are breeding for be it arabian/draft/ or mini Andalusian in my case :bgrin Correct conformation has to be there. No type should be over at the knee, club footed, shoulders should have the correct angle, pasterns, hips, bites have to be correct and in our breed - no dwarf characteristics period! etc BEFORE concentrating on the type that's pleasing to your eye. A well put together horse is just that - no matter what type and they all have their beauty. Just as some love halter QH's and some love the small cutters - each has it's own elegance and attraction but breeders of each type should still be breeding for the absolute best they can produce within that type.

And back to the topic of critiques...if people ask for one then honest opinions should be given but based on conformation...not on type.

 

[targetsmom]

I have to say I agree so much with what Becky said!!! I won't copy the whole thing here, but a couple of things really struck me: The narrow chests on some of the horses that are winning in the show ring. I think refinement can be carried too far. I also think that sometimes conformation and CONDITIONING are confused (along with conformation and type). It seems to me that the best conditioned, best shown animal usually wins, even if it has conformational flaws that I would not accept in my breeding program (e.g. clubby feet, sickle or cow hocks). If a good handler and good show preparation can disguise the faults, and the animal is in top condition and stretches its neck nicely, the judges seem to like it.

The other point I want to make is about the progress that has been made in miniatures in the past even 10 years - and we are fairly new to this. There certainly is more work to be done. But is anyone else as impressed as I am with Buckeroo winning a get of sire class at the World Show at age 29? When you think of how far the breed has come in 29 years, I think that is a phenominal accomplishment and why I like having that bloodline in my herd.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

I'm really curious to know who it is you think thinks they have perfect horses? I know I'd love to check out their herd and maybe even their sales list.

There are no perfect horses. If I had a magic wand, there are things I'd fix on every single one of mine from my grade gelding on up to the ones who have National wins.

However, some horses are more perfect than others. When someone asks what the forum thinks of a horse's conformation, I think to comment and not be honest is a disservice to that poster and to the 100's of readers who are trying to learn.

That said, I never saw a horse that had nothing nice to comment about. I think many / most of us do not just rattle off this that and the other that is "not good" about the horse, but point out both the possitive and the negative.

When somebody asks what we think of the conformation, of the horse as a show prospect, or as a breeding animal, if I reply, I am honest. It's really because I was able to learn from some people who were honest with me that I built a herd that, if nothing else, is a lot nicer than it was 5 years ago.

I agree 100% don't put them up for evaluation if you don't really want to know an honest evaluation is how we all learn and for someone to flower the picture will only confuse the ones on here that are trying to learn. Also make sure to use good angled pictures don't expect anyone to evaluate them from poor pictures. Some things are obvious even to an untrained eye so if you don't want to have neg coments on your horse then don't post pictures of the ones that have obvious flaws unless you want them pointed out for a learning process for others .

I agree. You have to be ready for critisism if you want to ask everyones open opinion on photos. Your asking for a lot of different personal opinions. Personally I'd rather have honest opinions that being given a false impression on something major.

Tammie---I meant no offense about appies. I love them. But I will honestly say my mare has an big head and when the appy mottling and the snowflakes it does look a little odd. The snow flake pattern kinda washed out her pinto color so its just a strange combo.

LOL- no offense taken! I love apps too but not crazy about the ones that get the pink around the eyes on a dark face- not my thing and I've seen my share of "large" headed appies!

We all have our likes and dislikes

Tammie

 

[Carolyn R]

I agree, don't put your horse up if you're gonna get offended. However, I also think, as others said, there is a difference in body style v/s confirmation flaws. A thicker,well set neck on a proportionate mini does not mean it is comfirmationallly flawed. I would rather have a thicker, long, arched neck then a thin upside down neck any day. I would also rather have thicker mares bred to refined stallions, My opinion is there is more belly and hip room for the baby.

Do I think that a thicker broodmare would go far in the show ring, maybe in their early days, but that is why they are a broodmare, they have nice features, and may be better suited for foaling.

Just my preference,

Carolyn

 

[Minimor]

I would point out that while type & conformation are two separate things, both do come into play when judging. Take for instance the hip. A hip should have good length. But, a good length of hip can come in different shapes--there are long hips that are quite level, like what we like to see in the halter classes, and there are long hips that are less level, giving the croup a rounded appearance...what many people prefer in their driving horses...or the croup may be a little angular (not so much "rounded")--am thinking more of the hunter/jumper conformation now.

So, someone posts a photo for critique. The horse might have a perfectly good hip, just not a flat croup with high tail set. So, if the owner happened to ask "how will this horse show"--the horse's type does come into the critique. That horse's hip does need to be commented on in terms of how it stacks up for halter showing. And, in any given critique the person responding will base his/her answers on what he/she likes in the way of type. People will often say things like "horse isn't as refined as I'd like to see" or "I'd like to see the tail set a little higher and the croup be more level" and those sorts of observations are usually qualified by statements such as "that's my personal preference" of "that's just me".

If a judge happens to prefer Arab type over QH type, any QH types in the class are going to have to be especially nice to get placed at the top. Judges, being human, are going to favor the type they personally like, and if they're going to place a type they are less enthused about that horse has to be especially well conformed and/or the horse of the type they favor will have to be poorly conformed--in a close call (and even in a not so close call sometimes!) the favored type will place on top. I've known a judge to not use a horse at all, just because the horse wasn't the right type for the class --and I "know" that because the owner of the horse asked the judge, and that's what he told her--she was very unhappy about it, and frustrated because the previous year she had shown her horse (Saddlebred) as "English type" and the judge that year told her the horse should show in the "harness type" class. So, the next year she entered harness type and was told by that judge that she should have shown in English type...he didn't feel her horse was at all harness type.