kill buyers

[mountain_waif]

....

 

[rabbitsfizz]

As with everything, it is the bad breeders that get the most flack (rightly so) but it is not only the bad breeders that over produce. In the Dobe world you breed a litter to get ONE puppy to show. There is NO way all the pups, show standard or not, go to be shown. I am looking for a top pup at the moment , to show, so I have a really big area to troll through as many, many many puppies are out there. This time, for the first time in my life, I am getting a dog (I admit to low self control when it comes to breeding females, even though both my bitches are spayed!!) I shall not breed the dog, and I shall, in all likelihood, have him neutered too- over here he can still be shown neutered.

As you age your goals and attitudes change.

I still shall continue to campaign against live export of any animal, and for increased regulations about handling and transport of any animal.

If you get the laws changed for all animals Horses will benefit by default and a greater good will have been accomplished than merely trying to help horses. You also bring into the fold people who have no interest in horses at all, but eat meat. If you appeal to their consciences and get them to insist that their meat (Pig, Cattle Chickens, ) is Free Range and guaranteed "Cruelty Free" as many Supermarkets in the UK now do, those people can now continue to eat meat with a clear conscience and have helped horses without even knowing it.

All animals, horses included , have a right to both live and die with dignity.

I do not believe horses have any more right, but they most certainly have as much right.

Like others here I have in the past raised and killed and eaten my own meat.

It was happy and living in perfect conditions up til the moment it died, I have a clear conscience.

I have eaten horse meat, but not my own, nor has any horse I own ever gone for human consumption as they are killed here on the Farm.

I cannot vouchsafe for the animals I have sold, unfortunately, but by campaigning for better conditions, imposable by law, I am again helping to ensure a better future for any horse I sell.

None of my Minis has ever gone (legally) for slaughter as all their passports are stamped "Not for Human Consumption" so they cannot, by law, over here, go into the Human foodchain.

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

oops

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

oops double post

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I see the adorable pups and kittens on posts and I can only be heartsick for their futures and the futures of their offspring. I will not patronize businesses that contribute to this misery either and refuse to spend my hard earned dollars at pet shops that sell animals to just anyone off the street.

Responsible breeders keep track of the homes that their puppies go to and many offer to take them back if a situation arises where the dog is available for a new home. Please don't lump all breeders in with puppy mills. Many breeders also limit the numbers of litters that they produce even though many have waiting lists for puppies.

Of course "responsible" breeders are not the problem nor did I lump all breeders in with puppy mills. However, putting a couple of registered, or not, dogs together for an example, getting a litter then selling them intact to others who will repeat the cycle is a huge part of the problem in all species. No matter how well some breeders keep track they truly have no control over what happens to that animal once it leaves them. We have breeders in this area who have wait lists for Yorkie pups regardless of quality, health or temperment, but there are no wait lists for Pits and they can hardly be given away. Doesn't mean much to me except that it's mostly a supply and demand issue but I can commend a breeder who has every pup in a good home before the dog's are even bred. At least they are trying in their own way to not add to the problem.

A lot of people poo poo breeders who finish their dogs to the championship level before they even consider breeding. Do people have any clue just how HARD that is to do, especially in a popular dogs like Labs where there are ususally 40-60 or more per class on a slow day? I wouldn't have the resources, time or patience it takes in several lifetimes to go through what others have done to reach it. I recall one saying she was up to $14,000 already and that didn't include her time or travel expense for just one her dogs. Few by comparison are even involved with their chosen breed on any level (ETA) yet they certainly feel qualifed and entitled to breed.

: We already have an overabundance of pets and if everyone quit breeding tomorrow it'd still be a long time before we'd take care of what we've already got.

 

[Jenn]

Every single person who breeds horses is contributing to the problem of overproduction, which results in horses going for slaughter. So be part of the solution rather than part of the problem - don't breed unless you already have a guaranteed buyer lined up for the foal.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Every single person who breeds horses is contributing to the problem of overproduction, which results in horses going for slaughter. So be part of the solution rather than part of the problem - don't breed unless you already have a guaranteed buyer lined up for the foal.

and even that doesnt solve the problem as a buyer for the foal doesnt mean the foal will have a home for the next 20+ years

 

[runamuk]

Why does everyone think that slaughter is the alternative to homes for all of these unwanted animals??? Which would you prefer...getting an injection and going to sleep? Or being slammed into a feedlot to wait until all the drugs/wormers clear their system, with all kinds of other horses biting, kicking...so scared, confused. I have been to a feedlot, I have rescued horses. I have managed a no-kill animal shelter. I have two PMU babies here. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT HERE. It is NOT the only alternative, a humane death is euthanasia.

I will not argue the point about other species. I don't agree with the transport and handling of those, either. But let's start with the ones who give each and every one of us daily pleasure and love, our horses.

well do you know of 40,000 homes? for possibly some very damaged animals..or very old or even violent.....as for putting them down would be nice but what are you going to do for body disposal? Who is going to pay? Businesses must show an attempted profit or get the IRS up the rear.....so putting down ALL the culls on a big farm might mean 50% so if they are producing 200 a year that is one farm with 100 "pet/auction" quality horses to move....plus this is what we do with dogs and cats and...well seems annually we are adding to the millions not decreasing...so I still do not see that as a truly viable alternative......

I have worked with rescue's and rescue animals for years.....I am a no-kill shelter

: and there are only so many that can be saved......there is one way to fix this problem

STOP BREEDING...put limits on breeding require tight regulations as to just who can breed and make those breeders accountable for the rest of that animals life :new_shocked: harsh...unamerican.....would fix a big portion of the problem

 

[shminifancier]

And some research I have read it is More Like 80,000 horses Per Year,, Each and Every year`! Yes I would like to know just where these people are that will be able to take in that many every year... :no:

 

[ClickMini]

Runamuk we are both on the same page about one thing, to reduce the amount of indiscrimate breeding. As for euthanasia and disposal, I'm sorry I just don't buy it that people can't pay. If you can afford to have a horse you can sure in the heck afford to pay the few hundred $ for euthanasia and disposal. Right now people have an "easy out," ship that horse to the auction and pray that the person who paid that $200 or less is going to be a "good home." Just turn your eyes and walk away. Eliminating that option for people would go a long ways toward responsible and caring ownership in my opinion. The others will just get out of horses/the business.

Ya know what? My vet bills for 2005 were in excess of $15,000 yes you read that right. I would NEVER ship my horses to an auction hoping for the best. They are EXPENSIVE animals to own, the minis are much cheaper of course, but still they are a LUXURY. People who are well off enough to own such a luxury are well enough off to do the right thing by their animals.

I will not let anyone off the hook, sorry. I would not let a few dollars get in the way of doing the right thing for my animal, my friend, the one who has given so much to me. And I would hold others to the same standard.

 

[ClickMini]

Runamuk we are both on the same page about one thing, to reduce the amount of indiscrimate breeding. As for euthanasia and disposal, I'm sorry I just don't buy it that people can't pay. If you can afford to have a horse you can sure in the heck afford to pay the few hundred $ for euthanasia and disposal. Right now people have an "easy out," ship that horse to the auction and pray that the person who paid that $200 or less is going to be a "good home." Just turn your eyes and walk away. Eliminating that option for people would go a long ways toward responsible and caring ownership in my opinion. The others will just get out of horses/the business.

Ya know what? My vet bills for 2005 were in excess of $15,000 yes you read that right. I would NEVER ship my horses to an auction hoping for the best. They are EXPENSIVE animals to own, the minis are much cheaper of course, but still they are a LUXURY. People who are well off enough to own such a luxury are well enough off to do the right thing by their animals.

I will not let anyone off the hook, sorry. I would not let a few dollars get in the way of doing the right thing for my animal, my friend, the one who has given so much to me. And I would hold others to the same standard.

 

[runamuk]

The differnece is you are approaching it as a hobby a luxury a pet. For many this is their lively hood their business and everything about it must be run in a business manner.

OK as for disposal where I am it is relatively easy we can bury them but at some point that would become no longer an option...due to the slaughter industry declining I am hearing all over the country that the renderers who used to come haul can't make any money so that is becoming less of an option. So now you are stuck with cremation or mass burial sites .....the group graves are slowly disappearing......so suddenly you can pay 200 to put your horse down and the only legal option is cremation at upwards of 1000...so now you have a cost of 1200 to off a horse humanely.......that works out to 48 million to dispose of those 40,000 horses.....

As for your 15,000 in vet bills....I would not do that ever......that is my annual income and well my kids come first so the horses do have a limit to what I am willing to spend to save them......plus if horses are insured insurance companies then say when enough is enough.......

in some ways doing away with horse slaughter has affected the horse market.....with the demand down the prices drop and with prices dropping there is no competition at the auctions which often set the prices for local markets...so with lower prices at the auctions you see that fall out into the general market as well.....

before reacting just think about it for a minute......if I can get 1.65 lb at auction from a slaughter buyer then a horse 1000 lb horse is worth 1650 ......however at 35 cents a lb that same 1000 lb horse is only worth 350......so is it better to have the low end of the horse market paying 1650 or 350 ?

Runamuk we are both on the same page about one thing, to reduce the amount of indiscrimate breeding. As for euthanasia and disposal, I'm sorry I just don't buy it that people can't pay. If you can afford to have a horse you can sure in the heck afford to pay the few hundred $ for euthanasia and disposal. Right now people have an "easy out," ship that horse to the auction and pray that the person who paid that $200 or less is going to be a "good home." Just turn your eyes and walk away. Eliminating that option for people would go a long ways toward responsible and caring ownership in my opinion. The others will just get out of horses/the business.

Ya know what? My vet bills for 2005 were in excess of $15,000 yes you read that right. I would NEVER ship my horses to an auction hoping for the best. They are EXPENSIVE animals to own, the minis are much cheaper of course, but still they are a LUXURY. People who are well off enough to own such a luxury are well enough off to do the right thing by their animals.

I will not let anyone off the hook, sorry. I would not let a few dollars get in the way of doing the right thing for my animal, my friend, the one who has given so much to me. And I would hold others to the same standard.

 

[shminifancier]

As for your 15,000 in vet bills....I would not do that ever......that is my annual income and well my kids come first so the horses do have a limit to what I am willing to spend to save them......plus if horses are insured insurance companies then say when enough is enough.......

Yes that is so true there has to be a limit and in no way will that limit be as high as that...have to be realistic here and just how much goes to what, and then there is a cut off point for sure..

 

[Horse Hugs]

Clickmini,

I had a year like that also. Hyperlipemia, rattlesnake bite and major surgery :no:

I think people should only have as many horses as they can afford medical expenses for. Yet, I have heard people on this board say how they had to put down a horse because of some expensive medical cost and then they actually buy another horse the same year. :nono:

 

[ClickMini]

Yes, that is where we will all have to agree to disagree, I will never, ever, ever in this lifetime agree that horse slaughter is necessary or okay. And by the way, that $1.65/lb at auction has never happened in the state of Washington anyway, in the past 15 years that I have lived here. More likely, your very large and fit TB will be safe for sure once it hits the $600 - 700 mark.

When you have eleven horses there is a very good chance that you may have a year like I did. That amount did not come on one horse, or one reason. That is the first year I have ever faced that kind of problem. But you DO have to be prepared for it! I also have my horses seen twice a year by the vet, they get vaccinated, and get their teeth done by a specialist. That is not counting feet trimmed every 4-8 weeks, and other necessary incidentals for them.

Also, as far as disposing of your euthanized horses and all of the "problems" related to it, does that mean that all horses should run thru slaughter or what??? For crying out loud! If you have horses, this is an expense that should be planned for and built into your budget!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There has to be a "common ground" somewhere here. We are all agreed, I think, that in some circumstances humane destruction is necessary. I cannot see what difference it makes what happens to the horse after it is dead, but I do understand that this matters a lot to some people. Those people are free to make their own arrangements and to pay out the exorbitant charges if they wish.

I do agree that the conditions under which horses (and cattle sheep and pigs) are bought for slaughter and transported, kept and finally killed, are totally unacceptable.

With horses, where there are kill buyers competing with people who might give the horse a good home, the feelings are bound to run high, and I admit to having paid more for a horse at auction than I should have done, merely because the opposition was a knacker!!

At one time our local dealer , who was also a "kill buyer" would drop off at my place and my friends, any horses he thought should really have another chance. I've had Connemaras with papers and in foal from the man- that is crazy!!

The obvious answer is to get people to breed less.

Although occasionally Minis will go to kill buyers, they are hardly worth the bother.

I am far more worried about what happens to the over produced, unregistered (and sometimes registered as well) Minis that go through these markets.

Quite frankly a lot would be better off dead!!

 

[runamuk]

Also, as far as disposing of your euthanized horses and all of the "problems" related to it, does that mean that all horses should run thru slaughter or what??? For crying out loud! If you have horses, this is an expense that should be planned for and built into your budget!

OK here is where it gets tough...if I am raising horses as a form of livestock the normal course of events leads to that livestock being disposed of at auction.....standard business practice..in the livestock industry.

You are still in the horse as pet mode...for many many many horses are a business a livestock business......

so back to the original question yes in many ways horse slaughter affects the market it sets the bottom price.