Less foals-More training???

[Performancemini]

I hate being flamed

-but I am probably opening up another can of worms that I know what most of the answers will be.

The Newbie's Breeding thread was so long that I decided this was a seperate, but corresponding thread. What's behind the breeding? Proper confirmation. Good disposition. Performance (the result of both). Everywhere you look (here, breeder sites, other horse for sale websites) you can find tons of driving PROSPECTS. There's not many trained or green/started horses for sale. Maybe those of you who do train and drive keep them (nothing wrong with that).

I realize the time it takes for a horse to mature and then the time that has to be put into training; but wouldn't it be better to have some trained horses to sell to people new to minis or horses? Or even to those experienced; but for whatever reason,who are looking for one started or trained? I look and I don't see many of these ads. I know we promote minis as being versatile and able to do many different things. But sometimes (OK-here's the "flame") all I see are ads for gorgeous 'eye-candy'.(Believe me, I love 'eye-candy' too) Darn, two of our geldings,in particulair, came from an excellent place, are extremely well bred, have great confirmation and movement (I'm sure there is a fault or two too! nobodys all perfect); they most likely could have been stunning stallions; but instead are stunning geldings and are being used for more than just the halter ring (where they do very well). I am not belittling halter or even other disciplines such as halter obstacle, jumping, etc. because we compete in alot of those also; I am just asking why not spend some time on a few of those youngsters and start them driving(or something) before selling?. Breed a few less mares that year??? It's not so much I wish to be flamed-I just want to see the different whys and whats like in the other thread-thought it would be interesting to see how everyone would see things (ooouchh!!!).

 

[targetsmom]

Seems only fair that I reply here too, as I replied on the other thread about a mare I gave away and it took me three tries. She WAS trained - green broke to drive (I had photos of her driving), jumped, did halter obstacle, and was the best mini for giving "pony" rides (lots more photos of all these). Her conformation was such that without scale in the photo people often thought she was a Welsh pony and she also earned some AMHA halter points before we got her. She was a good example of what we strive for - good conformation, movement and temperament to be a very versatile equine. ALL our minis get similar training, as appropriate for their age.

But I think you are onto something about the performance issue, and I would add to that therapy work. We spent 4 days at the MA Equine Affaire last year and found that what the people coming through were interested in was performance minis, especially driving horses. Many people said that although they didn't have minis NOW, they could easily see them in their future.

So I would ask: How can we (breeders and registries) do a better job of promoting minis to these people??

 

[Riverrose28]

There is a lot of truth in what you are asking, but, for us we would need to have the added expense of hiring a trainer to teach driving to the sale horses as we don't drive. We do sack out and train for abstacle, and daughter is training one now for jumping.We love to show and that is how we got started into minis, and do have a driving horse for my grand son. We are hoping to recive some education on driving this summer, and have bought a cart and harness. So maybe in the future we can train our own to drive. Now back to breeders that breed to make a profit, if they retain these horses for the whole two years that it takes to have a green broke, just started horse in harness, these people would lose even more money. They would need to spend more on feed, vet and hay, etc. In order to make a profit they need a quick turnover, and it is better to sell as a weanling or yearling, and even better if the foal has been shown succesfully.

 

[Performancemini]

That's what I'm looking for!!! Your reply pins it down more. (I would have loved to had your girl! She would fit right in here!) We also do alot with our minis besides showing. We are, in fact, preparing for a huge horse fair in Madison, Wisconsin in two weeks. So many go through and I believe our club's minis are the biggest draw of all. And so many questions from horsemen and non-horsemen alike of all nature.

 

[Marty]

Great topic and no flames from me. Coming from my quarter horse background, I always said when I was breeding my former stallion that I wanted to aim for a "using" horse. I wanted foals that were not only pretty to look at but also had some substance which would enable them to perform and HOLDUP in any number of classes. And oh, lets not forget "brains" and a SANE willing disposition. I did a lot of groundwork on all my foals (4) but I would have liked to take it to another level.

On another note, we at CMHR realize it does help us if any of our rescued horses can "do stuff". I do think it helps get them adopted at times if they have certain training on them. We do in fact have a horse that is a very nice Country Pleasure and CDE horse that has gone from "Rescue to Ribbons". Therefore, we have encouraged some of our fosters to get our horses out there wherever they can. We are very lucky to have some of our horses being trained for different things while in foster care and hope it encourages more adoptions.

 

[Riverrose28]

To Targets Mom, we promote our minis in several ways. First every year we go to the animal welfare league and take a couple and my granson leads his in the parade. We have done liberty exhibitions, and let city kids that normally don't have access to horses, pet and lead. We have done obstacled demos and let kids lead the minis over and through. We also do 4-H horse science school demos and have taken a couple to the big horse trail rides just so others can ooh and aaww! I hhad major surgery last year and we had to cut back on some demos, but still did most, I forgot to add church farm day, and the county farm safety day. All these organizations carry insurance so it is safer to take the minis there then to invite just anyone to the farm. I don't know how the breed registries can help, but I do know that if you do demos and ask they will send you free of charge brochures on the breed.

 

[HGFarm]

Housing additional horses, extra expense of all feed, farrier and health care, training or hiring a trainer are just some of the reasons that many farms do not do this... they would have to keep a horse for 3 years to get some of this done- what do you think that will do to the price to the customer who comes to look at it? The breeder is going to have to try to recoup the investment they now have in this foal to adult trained horse.

I know many breeders who neither drive nor show but they have many excellent horses due to their vast experience in horses (sometimes of many breeds) over the years. These are where some of your 'good prospects' come from as those breeders know what they are breeding for- they just no longer, or never did, get into that aspect of it all.

I think a lot of reasons that farms dont keep and train their minis to driving age is the cost effectiveness, time and space that would be involved with it all.

 

[Candi]

While I TOTALLY agree that it's generally better to have them started or trained in a discipline first. Doesn't always work.

We have a NICE wellbred foundation ASPC mare - 1/2 sibling to Congress champions. Has halter points - that we spent $500 and put 45 days started driving training on last Spring. We've got about $2800 into this mare that we were (eventually) asking $750 for! 99% of the "interest" I got was from backyard horse folks wanting a riding pony for their 4yr old Gkids. The other 1% of the replies were from "show" folks that wanted a FINISHED driving/show pony for that price. They were "happy" to buy her if I invested another 30-60 days into finished driving training. (which to me isn't enough time to FINISH a horse)

So... I was really no better off before the $500 into driving training. Beautiful mare. Well bred. Now well-started in driving. No buyers.

 

[RhineStone]

So... I was really no better off before the $500 into driving training. Beautiful mare. Well bred. Now well-started in driving. No buyers.

The over-abundance of minis has driven the market down so much that even trained ones can't bring a price! When you look at a lot of the questions on the driving forum, they're not "Where do I find a trained driving horse that I can learn to drive with" (which BTW is the BEST way to learn to drive), it's "How do I teach my mini to drive...oh, and by the way, I don't know how to drive (or ride for that matter), either." Most people don't want to have to pay extra for a trained mini when they think they can do it themselves, even though they would never attempt the same thing with... say a 16 HH Morgan.

I used to say that the owner was the best trainer, until I figured out that there are a lot of people out there that don't have any innate "horse sense". It takes this "six-sense" to train horses effectively. No amount of books, forums, videos, etc. will prepare a person to "get with" their animal. Those resources can help, but ultimately you need to "read" the horse. I find it easier to teach the horse than to teach the owner "horse sense".

I have a friend who raises extremely well-bred English Shires. He came to us to learn to drive because he kept getting calls asking him what his horses "do". His horses were really good at making babies, and not much else. I find it interesting that a good share of the rest of the horse world will (for the most part) pay extra for a "trained" horse, while mini people think they can do it themselves with their $200 mini. (Ok, so I do all my training, BUT I have owned and trained horses for over 20 years....and I had help and took lessons when I started.)

 

[kaykay]

For sure trained horses sell faster, but then people have to realize they cost more

If I put driving training on one of mine and then offer that horse for sale, the price has to go up.

Im actually thinking I may do this with one of mine that I am thinking of selling. If I do, I will report back

Candi

Since your brought up your mare I had to go look.

I noticed on your site that it says your mare has only been hooked to a cart twice. Now this is just me - but hooked to a cart twice is not even close to being trained to drive. Some may wonder after 45 days of training why she has only been hooked twice. If I spent 500.00 have a horse trained to drive and it has only been "ground driven many times and hooked to a cart twice" I would probably be questioning the trainer or the horse.

Also it has been my observation over the years that when you price a horse too cheap, people wonder what is wrong. Her description probably doesnt help sell her as a driving pony, but I give you kudos for being honest. "Nervous" horses generally dont appeal to someone wanting a good driving prospect.

*Dark purple bay is not a color; shes a bay

I hope you dont get offended as I am truly trying to help. These are the kinds of things people think when they read ads on websites.

 

[RhineStone]

We spent 4 days at the MA Equine Affaire last year and found that what the people coming through were interested in was performance minis, especially driving horses. Many people said that although they didn't have minis NOW, they could easily see them in their future.

So I would ask: How can we (breeders and registries) do a better job of promoting minis to these people??

Hence American Driving Society! I give AMHR credit for becoming a breed partner with the ADS!

Right now, I think there is a bit of an "attitude" amongst breeders that ADS minis are "throwaways" from the breed ring; horses that are too big, too bulky, not "Araby" enough, etc. Granted, some of those horses are. I happen to have a "powerhouse" of a Very Small Equine (the ADS "mini" division) that I have been told wouldn't do all that well in the breed ring even though he has good conformation, because he is "thick". He's a multi-champion at ADS shows, even against bigger well-bred, expensive ponies. There are some wonderful, well-bred minis being shown in ADS shows because that is what the owners want to do, but I see this market a bit untapped by most mini breeders. The market is either breed ring or pet (with maybe a little open show and 4-H thrown in). That's it.

So if you want to market to people who want to USE their minis, the ADS is the place to do it! Some minis are earning their way into the higher levels of ADS competition, not because someone is paying big bucks to get them there, but because their owners are working them consistenly with good dressage principles, and people are noticing! A good mini, trained to bend and use his hind end properly, will beat the pants off a big horse in the timed obstacles! No kidding! It's also not uncommon for a VSE to win "Best Dressage" at Combined Driving Events, even against Morgans, Warmbloods, Fjords, etc. And lots of people are recognizing that they are (generally, if well-trained) easier to handle, eat less, take up less space, require less trailer, etc. We have multiple friends that used to show big horses that have come over to the VSEs because they see how much fun we have with them at the ADS shows!

I think the reason we have the VSE division is because the Small Pony people got tired of getting beat by the minis!

 

[susanne]

I agree, it is a crime that a well-trained mini does not merit a higher price.

Howevwe, one legitimate concern buyers may have is the question of what is meant by a "trained driving horse?"

I've heard of so many buying a so-called "trained driving mini," only to learn it has been given a month of cursory training then rushed into the show ring.

To me, a trained driving horse is one that is well-schooled for both show and recreational driving. In addition, the seller should convey whether this is a horse for all skill levels or one for experienced drivers only.

With such caveats attached to the term, "trained driving horse," I can see why buyers might hesitate before shelling out that extra money.

 

[Sandee]

As for prices, it doesn't matter that the bottom has fallen out of the market, even before that the average person (someone not showing) didn't want to spend much on minis.

I came from the Bigt horse world of showing. We bought our first guy, 15 yrs.old, with cart and harness (well sort of a harness - don't want to discuss that) for $2000. A couple of years later after learning to drive and getting into showing, we retired him as "not the type to win" except for driving. We had someone offer $600 for him. Even my hubby, who is NOT a horse person, was outraged at the offer. It wasn't that we had paid so much more for him but hubby said, "If that's all they think he's worth, he can stay here in the pasture forever." This gelding is so sweet and taught us so much that he's become hubby's favorite horse.

Until people realize that these are HORSES, not big dogs, and that their training and personality is worth something just like the big horses, the market will never be there. JMO

 

[Riverrose28]

Rhine Stone, we show at the local 4-H show circuits, as well as breed shows. When we show at the local shows it is all breed, we are up against quarter horses, arabs, morgans, tennesse walker, you get the picture. Last year we had a mare in stock type mare, a gelding in stock type gelding, and a pony in pony, the only other class was two and under which we didn't have a horse ready for. At the end of the year we won all three divisions, and hight point pony for the year and hight point mare. All minis were shown by youth and a physicaly challenged youth. We also won high point comformation horse two years in a row. Needless to say the quarter horse people are irrate, and want to add a mini only class, my response to that is, do you want a quarter horse only class? We don't want to show our minis against each other, we want to excell against all the other breeds, If we had to show our minis against each other, we would need to hire handlers and only have one class to enter all of horses. One of our horses was Champion of Champions at the 4-h end of year show and it was so funny watching my grand son stand in the middle between a 16 hand quarter horse and a 17 hand thourgbred, and was so excited when he won it all.

 

[targetsmom]

So if you want to market to people who want to USE their minis, the ADS is the place to do it!

I think you are on the right track with this statement! I joined a local ADS driving club and most of the new members have VSEs. I joined for the fun and to learn, but also think of this as helping to market minis. Of course this only works if good examples are being presented.

I also show at Pinto shows, for similar reasons. The majority of the PtHA competitors are showing big horses - for now. But many of them see how much fun the mini people are having and want to join in. That was how we got hooked, as a matter of fact, and why we chose to breed pintos. Very few of the pinto competitors, including those showing minis, only show in halter. Almost everyone shows in performance classes and the PtHA award structure encourages this. All the major awards, such as Pinto Champion, Legion of Merit and Pinto Supreme Champion require points in both halter and performance.

 

[ClickMini]

Interesting thoughts here. AMHA just voted to become a Breed Partner with ADS also. I am happy to hear it, although I still have no idea what being a "breed partner" is! Myrna, perhaps you can chime in here!

It is the people that make up the breed that determine the "value" of what a horse brings to the table. When you look in either of our major breed publications at this time, it is glaringly obvious that the bias is toward the halter horse. If people within the breed ever start really focusing on performance and LONGEVITY of the horse in the show ring ("Why haven't you retired your winning gelding at age 5?"), then performance horses (other than the rare SP horse who can bring high 5 figures) might start increasing in value and make it worthwhile to keep and develop a sport horse for the sales market.

As for Kay's comment about questioning a trainer who has only had the horse in the cart a couple of times in the first 45 days of the horse's FOUNDATION TRAINING, I wholeheartedly DISAGREE that this is out of line! There is a LOT that needs to be put into the horse before actually hooking to the cart, and the more time you put in on the foundation, the better your horse will be, increasing the potential longevity of the horse!

I learned to train my horses to drive because I love training and I love the connection I build with a horse. While I would always encourage people to consult with a professional before trying to do it themselves, I do think it is important for the owner to participate in the development of a horse whenever possible. It really helps in understanding exactly what has been put in to the horse, and what to expect. A person might be more likely to do this with a mini than a big horse. Heck, I don't think I would start a big horse. Don't have enough confidence, even if I did have the knowledge! But I have successfully trained several of my own to a point where they are competitive in the breed ring and in ADS competition. Even winning on occasion. And what a feeling THAT is, when it is all your own work!

 

[susanne]

I agree with Amy -- I would assume (although U would certainly confirm) that a horse hooked only twice after 45 days training is in the hands of a serious trainer -- not a "spit 'em out, get 'em in the show ring" type.

Reading such an ad, my ears would prick up and I'd want to know more, expecting to be pleased.

 

[RhineStone]

Interesting thoughts here. AMHA just voted to become a Breed Partner with ADS also. I am happy to hear it, although I still have no idea what being a "breed partner" is!

As far as I understand, an ADS breed partner helps with promotion of ADS in their organization, and in return, ADS helps with promoting that breed in ADS. I'm sure that is a pretty simple "definition" of it.

I do think it is important for the owner to participate in the development of a horse whenever possible. It really helps in understanding exactly what has been put in to the horse, and what to expect.

I absolutely agree, Amy. I just don't think that every owner has what it takes to be a trainer. My husband, with his 7+ years in the ADS ring, fully admits that he is no trainer. He doesn't have the patience for it. That doesn't mean he doesn't participate ("Here, head this horse while I put him to" or "Drive this horse so I can see how he looks."). For those that do have what it takes, success in the ring is sweet! (I claim all of Chad's wins, too, because I trained his horse, I polished his harness, I picked out and ironed his clothes, I washed and braided his horse. All he does is feed the horses, and drive the truck and the horse!

....Ok, he also does oil changes and maintenance on the truck and trailer, clean paddocks with tractor, build and maintain carriages, go to work at a real job so we can afford to play with the carriage horses...

)

Myrna

 

[kaykay]

As for Kay's comment about questioning a trainer who has only had the horse in the cart a couple of times in the first 45 days of the horse's FOUNDATION TRAINING, I wholeheartedly DISAGREE that this is out of line! There is a LOT that needs to be put into the horse before actually hooking to the cart, and the more time you put in on the foundation, the better your horse will be, increasing the potential longevity of the horse!

I knew I should have clarified that statement. No I also dont believe in rushing a horse that isnt ready to drive. But If I paid 500.00 I would expect to get a horse back that has been hitched more than twice no matter how many days that took. I dont know why she got 45 days training as it seems an odd number? Maybe I am just lucky but I have talked and worked with some great trainers that dont charge that much and they dont bring the horse back until it is ready to actually drive. Around here its about 400.00 for 60 days

 

[ruffian]

The over-abundance of minis has driven the market down so much that even trained ones can't bring a price! When you look at a lot of the questions on the driving forum, they're not "Where do I find a trained driving horse that I can learn to drive with" (which BTW is the BEST way to learn to drive), it's "How do I teach my mini to drive...oh, and by the way, I don't know how to drive (or ride for that matter), either." Most people don't want to have to pay extra for a trained mini when they think they can do it themselves, even though they would never attempt the same thing with... say a 16 HH Morgan.

I used to say that the owner was the best trainer, until I figured out that there are a lot of people out there that don't have any innate "horse sense". It takes this "six-sense" to train horses effectively. No amount of books, forums, videos, etc. will prepare a person to "get with" their animal. Those resources can help, but ultimately you need to "read" the horse. I find it easier to teach the horse than to teach the owner "horse sense".

I have a friend who raises extremely well-bred English Shires. He came to us to learn to drive because he kept getting calls asking him what his horses "do". His horses were really good at making babies, and not much else. I find it interesting that a good share of the rest of the horse world will (for the most part) pay extra for a "trained" horse, while mini people think they can do it themselves with their $200 mini. (Ok, so I do all my training, BUT I have owned and trained horses for over 20 years....and I had help and took lessons when I started.)

I trained my first miniature to drive by myself. 2nd horse I trained myself went AMHR Natl Top Ten against 3 splits/50+ horses. I never owned a horse until after I got married, and this was 3 years later. People CAN do it themselves if they are willing to put the time and effort into it. Every pro training out there had to start somewhere. Perhaps they had a mentor, perhaps they have sixth sense when it comes to horses. Perhaps they just DID it. Too many times people today say "I can't do it" DO IT!! TRY IT!! It CAN be done by most anybody if they put out the effort.

Is it worth the effort? Sure, why not? If you're going to feed an animal, why not give it a job until it can be fun to drive around or sell if that's your choice?