Less foals-More training???

[Minimor]

I train our horses to drive for our own use, but I can't be bothered to train any for the purpose of selling--I'm not much into selling in the first place, and in the second place training for someone else just isn't something I care to do. I don't rush them through and get them going just so in a show ring frame, I use dressage type training and get them going truly on the bit, nice and light in the bridle, not bending all wrong and going behind the bit. Do you know how many of the general horse owning public can actually do a proper job of driving a horse that is trained that way? Very few. Most people have no idea about proper collection, they don't care if the horse's hindquarters are engaged or if the horse is on the bit, they're happy to just pick up the lines, haul on them to tuck the horse's nose in, let him go along trailing his hocks and hollow in the back. Light on the bit? Not likely with some of the mutton fisted drivers that are around. I'm not going to train a horse the way I like them trained just to sell them to someone like that that won't be happy with the horse anyway because the horse doesn't appreciate heavy hands, and I'm not going to train them "that way" just so they will suit one of those mutton fisted drivers...

Kay, the trainers I know of charge $xxx per month regardless of progress. If it takes 45 days of long lining before they feel the horse is ready to hitch they will keep the horse for two months, hitch him up on day 45, drive him on the cart for the next 15 days and charge you $xxx times 2 because they were working the horse for 2 months. If they don't feel that horse is safe for the owner after those 2 months they will suggest keeping him & driving him for another month, which means that the owner will pay a 3rd month of training fees.

 

[Performancemini]

I haven't figured out how to add the individuals replies I want to comment on-sorry (computer dummy yet). I liked ClickMini's comment on longevity with a horse. Our first two minis are 18 and 19 and we retired the gelding from performance classes a year ago due to physical problems; but he still does other things. The mare is active but slowing down some. I know of two Shetlands personally who were 26 and 28 before retiring from the performance show ring (roadster and park harness).

Foundation training: Yes-lots of basics on the ground to help with desensitizing and gain trust. I would rather have that than rush the hitching too soon. All that can start from foal on-

Not everyone has what it takes to train (or the desire)-it's true. We are always learning too. Our first time trying our hand at training ("our" being my husband and I ) was a Welsh pony that the Breeder/trainer advised us step-by-step along the way. We were lucky to have someone like that. And that's generally why we buy young stock and train ourselves 1) we can't afford most of the quality well-broke ones (so we buy quality youngsters) 2)we can't afford a trainer 3)we like knowing personally how the horse was handled and reacted by doing it ourselves. Unfortunately with times being the way they are, that leaves less time to train.

 

[Performancemini]

Minimor-it should get interesting! I do agree with your comments. There are too many horses (of many breeds) who look like they are being held in tight, overbent, or look at the "pencil pushing" or "peanut rolling" Quarter horse headsets they had (have?). I not saying all show horses are trained and driven this way, but you do see it.

 

[whitney]

BRAVO poster!

I'm a small time breeder/trainer had my first colt a month ago. Had big horses forever, this is my thoughts on breeding.

If YOU decide to create a life, you better be willing to make it a GOOD one. Every horse I own does it all, I make that commitment BEFORE I buy or breed.

They drive (trained by me) and I mean drive ...in the show ring and on some pretty tough/rough trails, they halter, jump and do obstacle. THIS is the reason (the fun part) of having horses, its not to sell something and make a profit, thats a nice benefit because you also make life long friends of the people you place them with.

I hadn't even driven a horse since I was a teenager and broke my Tweet 4 years ago, finish my stallion last year (first owner had him green broke) and finally finished Dusty the gelding I bought as a weaner and trained the little grey mare Misty I bought the year before. Got Dusty and Misty both out to a AMHR show.(Won't be trying to show two drivers at the same show with 1 cart ever again).

This year I have 2 that need to be trained we purchased them at the Double Diamond sale last fall. And the year after that our little AMHR/ASPC filly will be old enough to train.

My little Misty is for sale, but if she doesn't sell no biggy because, she's a BLAST to drive, and that's why I have them.

This is to BREEDERS----------TRAINING is ALOT more FUN! But I do understand, those babies are WAY cute!

 

[kaykay]

Kay, the trainers I know of charge $xxx per month regardless of progress. If it takes 45 days of long lining before they feel the horse is ready to hitch they will keep the horse for two months, hitch him up on day 45, drive him on the cart for the next 15 days and charge you $xxx times 2 because they were working the horse for 2 months. If they don't feel that horse is safe for the owner after those 2 months they will suggest keeping him & driving him for another month, which means that the owner will pay a 3rd month of training fees.

I totally get that. I think my main point was lost in that this particular mare is NOT trained to drive so the training did not add to her saleability. Probably would have been better to finish her and then advertise her for sale, or not pay for the training at all. Because now she is 500.00 in and has a half trained pony. With show season already started a serious show person is not going to look at buying this pony because they would have to pretty much train her and sit on her until next show season. Thus the reason she is probably only getting inquiries from people wanting something for their kids. (and no there is nothing wrong with that either LOL)

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I don't expect a trained driving horse, a halter obstacle horse that can side pass, or even a horse that stands for clipping when I'm shopping in my price range.

However, it WOULD be nice to be offered a horse that knows how to lead, load in a trailer, and have its feet trimmed. I don't think that is unreasonable.

 

[Candi]

Candi

Since your brought up your mare I had to go look.

I noticed on your site that it says your mare has only been hooked to a cart twice. Now this is just me - but hooked to a cart twice is not even close to being trained to drive. Some may wonder after 45 days of training why she has only been hooked twice. If I spent 500.00 have a horse trained to drive and it has only been "ground driven many times and hooked to a cart twice" I would probably be questioning the trainer or the horse.

Also it has been my observation over the years that when you price a horse too cheap, people wonder what is wrong. Her description probably doesnt help sell her as a driving pony, but I give you kudos for being honest. "Nervous" horses generally dont appeal to someone wanting a good driving prospect.

*Dark purple bay is not a color; shes a bay

I hope you dont get offended as I am truly trying to help. These are the kinds of things people think when they read ads on websites.

LOL - I said that mine had been started. Just that. Not finished. Not trained. Not finished. She was only hooked twice as the trainer broke her arm in several places training a Morgan to drive and had to cut things short. Had one of her apprentices put some in-hand work on her the last couple weeks.

Her description is HONEST. As a professional trainer and horse-show judge - that's my job. To be honest. SHOULD be the rule for all professionals, sadly, not. Also, I've been around MANY MANY Congress and National Champion driving minis and ponies and I'd say about 50% are what I'd call "Nervous". Meaning that not for an amateur or novice.

And, LOL though seems RATHER petty to me, but saying *purple bay* is no different than referring to GOLDEN Palomino, Sooty Buckskin or Buttermilk buckskin.

I can tell you that with the 50+ clients that we work with in a month - most wouldn't interpret things the way you do... to each their own for sure!

 

[Taylor Richelle]

This is a great thread! I don't have much to say but I bought a gelding last March that was fully trained to drive had been shown and done well. He stretched out on command, side passed, backed, jumped ect. He's refined and has the best personality. I paid $950 for him. For some that may be alot but to me it was a good price for what he knew how to do. Yes it is nice to find minis all trained and ready to go but that is hard to come across very rare in most cases. Like some of you said if I were to take the time to train all of mine to drive I really don't want to turn right around and sell him. You have all made very good points though!

 

[Minimor]

Well, "sooty" is an actual modifier, so sooty buckskin is a legimate description. Golden describes a darker (I would think) shade of palomino while buttermilk is also a common description for a certain shade of buckskin. Until your post earlier I have never, ever heard the term purple bay...is that supposed to sound more exotic? I've never seen a bay--and I've seen plenty of bays-- that I'd describe as purple and I don't see any sign of purple in the photo on your website. Definitely each to his own I guess.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Another great topic!

I've discussed the value-added component of having Minis and trying to sell them. It's unfortunate that most people do NOT want to pay for the effort and training that goes into a well trained driving horse.

Sadly, some big horse people I've spoken to also cannot see spending much on a Mini as even showing you don't get the money and 'stuff' you do at the big breed shows.

I do really think that the CDE driving and just pleasure driving (not showing) is going to be the growth area for Minis. Glad to see both registries being proactive with this.

 

[Candi]

Well, "sooty" is an actual modifier, so sooty buckskin is a legimate description. Golden describes a darker (I would think) shade of palomino while buttermilk is also a common description for a certain shade of buckskin. Until your post earlier I have never, ever heard the term purple bay...is that supposed to sound more exotic? I've never seen a bay--and I've seen plenty of bays-- that I'd describe as purple and I don't see any sign of purple in the photo on your website. Definitely each to his own I guess.

The term is somewhat common for dark counter-shading on bays. Dark bays with heavy black points and counter-shading. It's definitely more of a "laymans" term. LOL - it's funny how one breed can have NO idea what another's lexicon is... I posted on one of our well-known APHA forums about this boards... "issue" with the term "purple bay" - and about 18 people wondered what the heck was wrong with it! LOL... What's more common for one...

Friend is a geneticist for AQHA and said that "while purple isn't of course a recognized color; it certainly is often a descriptive word when describing many dark bays in our breed"

 

[Candi]

Also, to show that us "big breed" folks aren't nuts

Here's couple color sites that also refer to "blood bays" etc as purple

"Blood Bay: Dark blood-red color, sometimes almost purple." http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/bay.html

Wikipedia: "Bay horses range in color from a light copper red, to a rich red blood bay (the best-known variety of bay horse) to a very dark red or brown called dark bay, mahogany or purple bay, black-bay, or brown (occasionally "seal brown")."

Mahogany Bay is synonymous with the term Purple Bay...

 

[whitney]

I've trained everything from a weaner to a stallion and a couple of older mares in between. I'm sure this will burn me alive BUT I've seen the 30 day wonder horses from "trainers" and you wonder why they are nervous....common sense says they're trying to "get er done", they can't spend enough time to even get to know your horse and their on a deadline. Rule number 1 EACH horse has their OWN deadline. A lot of people say you can't win unless you put them with a big name trainer. Ok fine you train them and then place them with the trainer cheaper and in my opionion better, calmer horse.

Are you affraid of getting hurt? Well if you've done your home work your biggest fear should be in causing the death of a GREAT broodmare.

If your unqualified to train, than haul that GREAT PROSPECT and take lessons with it. Double bonus you learn how to train AND when its finished you have a trained horse to sell. Your able from that point on to turn out halter horses with a job which will make them worth something forever.

I think this topic hits alot of really important points, do you breed "dead beats" or "working citizens". The working citizens are really going to make this breed explode. All you have to do is drive them ONCE and your HOOKED!

 

[targetsmom]

Another great topic!

Sadly, some big horse people I've spoken to also cannot see spending much on a Mini as even showing you don't get the money and 'stuff' you do at the big breed shows.

Actually, if you have a pinto mini and show at PtHA pointed shows, starting this year you CAN win money in the Pinto Pays program. It works a bit like a futurity in that you need to nominate your horse and the fees go up with time, but you earn money for points won at LOCAL shows. And of course, an all around mini (like our Princess) who shows in 9 open mini classes could potentially earn quite a bit. We have also won a lot of "stuff" as Mini Division Champions at our local pinto shows - generally the same awards the big horses get.

 

[Performancemini]

Wow! This really led into different branches of the same idea. I like a lot of the imput. There is always going to be a percent of a breeders foals, etc. that will go to a non show home. I think educating the general public on a one-to-one basis is very important. I think we each need to be individually responsible in having the information for buyers, prospective buyers and etc. to educate them on what a mini can do and WHERE they can go for good honest help with there mini (ie. such as trainers, lesson stables, etc.). The non show owner will sometimes need a lead on trainers that are not neccasarily (oops-spelling) show horse trainers (and they are out there) or a place to learn to drive, etc. I know there were no close mini/shetland barns that really drove around us; but off chance, I found a Morgan farm that gave lessons in all the disciplines including driving. They train show or the "backyard" rider/driver. And the owners/instructors are just wonderful. I use them as one line of help for people I talk to. I also know a QH friend, who showed, who now owns two minis, got involved in our club and is now training a few minis to drive (just pleasure drive, not show) does a great job at a very reasonable price-and I use her too for a help contact. I think things like this will help the breed. We have to have education/information to help the general buying public. Yes?

 

[ohmt]

I just wanted to say something about the color issue going on here :

Bay is bay is bay is bay

I don't use descriptive words because my philosophy is what I typed above. Bay is bay, buckskin is buckskin (sooty is ok-it's an actual modifier), palomino is palomino, etc.

I think many people on here avoid descriptive words because they understand the genetics. Descriptive words are often just perspective anyway and to a newbie purple bay could be something exotic so I avoid such terms just in case.

I really like this thread and have learned quite a bit. Thanks to those that have contributed!

 

[whitney]

I think the majority of the horses go to non show homes. All the more reason to TRAIN them.

Performancemini that is exactly what I did I found a ADS/CDE big time exhibitor that was giving seminars locally. Funny thing is her classes were packed with mini owners!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Going back to the less foals-more training comment I totally agree and I wish more breeders would feel that way. Building a foundation on a horse starts when they are born. I rather pay more for a trained foal then one that has never been messed with. Which is why in the future when I decide to breed again I'm only going for 1 or 2 foals so I can take the time and train that foal.

I wish one day trained minis can sell for a higher price and maybe one day they will. I just think if you enjoy training your miniatures and watch them progress then do it. I know I do. The performance horses at shows are getting more popular and proven performance show horses will start going for high dollars so I say keep training.

 

[targetsmom]

In line with the training and performance issue, one thing I would love to see more of is using minis for "therapy" or just public relations. I am NOT talking about companion animals but taking them to public places and events where people can see and enjoy them, such as into nursing homes, veterans homes and hospitals. One thing we noticed is how easy it is for minis to bring smiles to people's faces, no matter what the age! So mini owners need to be educated about this too - insurance, training, potential problems, etc.

We already have a place on our farm website with basic information on minis, including what you can do with them. There are photos, recommended reading, and links, including to LB and all the major registries. We plan to expand on this area with more in depth info and maybe where to find driving trainers. What is on there now is the handout we used at the MA Equine Affaire last year, so it's targeted to "big horse" people.

 

[wcr]

Coming from the big horse world before getting into minis, I spent a lot of time conditioning and training and showing. I taught my first mini stallion to drive and went to the best person I could find to train me to train my mini. It was like training a big horse to ride. Putting the foundation on, long lining, hooking up and then training while driving. It takes a huge time commitment to do it right and I don't think I could get that much more for my horses with training. The bottom line was that I didn't like driving. In many ways it's a shame because my stallion is really bred to drive and puts movement on his foals. Then for someone starting out you have to buy the cart and harness and everything that goes with it. It just is not cost effective to try to train horses because the market isn't there to support the cost of raising, training ect. Not for someone raising more that a foal a year or even every other year. Someone mentioned they bought a horse trained to drive for $950. I can get that for my untrained horse.

People find their comfort zone, wether it be driving, in hand or just having a horse to love. We can't accommodate everyone with every horse we have for sale. That said, I think we have a responsibility to make sure we have a horse that can be handled safely by anyone, not running over the top of us, getting in our space and a bronc to trim. Basic manners should be the minimum we teach our horses before selling.