Locking stifle joint

[HGFarm]

I agree with Carol, Fred and the rest... I have never heard of this being caused by a farrier- and my X was a darned good one. I have heard of the problem showing more from bad trimming, but not being caused by... Also, I have also heard of some horses developing this with age that maybe didnt show it as a weanling.

If it is a conformational problem, no matter if the rest of the 'family' didnt have it- this particular horse does, due to a conformation problem that it has, and if you use that horse for breeding, you run the risk of the same conformational defect there being passed on. The relatives that dont have it, just dont QUITE have the conformation to show it then, but you can take two champions and breed them and get simply awful offspring. You never know how two horses are going to 'nick' and what they are going to produce when bred together- and out of ten offspring from the same two parents, you could get 10 different looking horses. I have seen some foals that you wonder where they came from as they dont look like either parent......

 

[Margo_C-T]

Have to agree(so add me to the stuff on the grill!)--a farrier isn't going to 'cause' a locking stifle!

Also agree that it is 'WAY too 'accepted' within miniatures. And, to be blunt, it OFTEN is not going to be openly acknowledged (IF it was even 'recognized' to begin with; like Carol(verticallimit), I'd most likely 'vote' for ignorance)-so I wouldn't count too heavily on reports that 'no ancestor had it'....

I gelded and gave away,sans papers and to a guaranteed 'pet' home, the highest-priced mini I ever bought (wouldn't you just KNOW it...?), due to the fact that he developed TWO 'issues'--an increasingly serious underbite, as he approached and passed a year of age, and a bit later, DOUBLE locking stifles. Some argued that aggressive dental work might have 'fixed' the tooth issue--and I suppose, it *might* have...but I did not wish to breed a horse with EITHER problem--and I took the financial hit, and did not.

Carol, thanks(!!??) for the 'visual' of the toothless riders( because they were all 'rattled' out of their heads by a ROUGH-RIDING mini, if 'blown up' to fullsized!! I admit, I sat here and guffawed!!)

You are SOOOO right! IMO, the most frequent 'weak area' I see in miniatures in general is in the impulsion system--rear end, if you will. Bad angles(of hip, stifle, hock, and even pastern) and a lack of adequate musculature and good joint tie-in, esp. through the stifle and gaskin, are among the 'biggest' of problems!

Margo

 

[kaykay]

I have felt this is THE biggest problem in miniatures for years now because people make excuses and keep breeding them. When I wrote the conformation book I wrote a lot on this issue because there are so many myths about it. It IS inherited and genetic. I have asked 2 different equine universities and approx 10 vets and they all agree that it is genetic and cause by poor hind leg conformation. The back of the leg is too straight which means the patella cant catch and slips off and the leg locks.

It is not caused by poor trimming or nutrition. It can be helped by trimming and excercise but that is not the cause.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The farrier cannot change your horse's conformation, just tweak it some.We can't make crooked legs straight, we can make them as straight as they can be for that horse.

We can help and adjust and sometimes even mess up. Anything a farrier does can be undone (although sometimes it takes time to fix it )

What God does, you're pretty much stuck with.

And BTW, I'm seeing a lot more stifle problems in the past couple years. Anybody else feel like the problem's increasing ?

Good posts from Vickie here and I agree with most of what she's said whole-heartedly. Kody has one mildly crooked front pastern which can be corrected to look straight without damage to his joints (it's a very mild deviation.) The longer his hind toes got or the worse his angles back there, the worse his locking was and the more painful movement was for him. With a GOOD trim and very squared-off hind toes he was clearly much more comfortable and would lock far less. But he still locked and even if we'd been able to trim it into remission he still would have HAD the problem. It just wouldn't have been showing up at the time.

I don't think we're seeing more prevalence of the problem so much as many vets are now refusing to do the surgery so horses who would have been treated in the past are now out and about with the problem visible. Of course perhaps it was breeding all those fixed, problem-less horses from the last generation that created the problem in this generation! Who knows.

I have felt this is THE biggest problem in miniatures for years now because people make excuses and keep breeding them. When I wrote the conformation book I wrote a lot on this issue because there are so many myths about it. It IS inherited and genetic. I have asked 2 different equine universities and approx 10 vets and they all agree that it is genetic and cause by poor hind leg conformation. The back of the leg is too straight which means the patella cant catch and slips off and the leg locks.
It is not caused by poor trimming or nutrition. It can be helped by trimming and excercise but that is not the cause.

I agree with Kay in principle but want to clarify the statement in bold above as I believe it is inaccurate. The stifle locks when the medial patellar ligament catches in the cochlear groove and won't slip off. When the patella itself slips off to the side that's luxation and it's very very bad.

To be fair to the original poster I HAVE heard of injuries or incompetent farriers creating the problem in larger horses that had been sound all their lives but in those cases it was clearly an injury that showed up after a big brouhaha and was only on the affected side, not bilaterally.

What is the best thing for me to do? Should I lounge him, walk him, or waht exercise should I do. He did not have a whole lot of exercise before. They were both on Strategy and alfalfa. Should I continue feeding them this or should I slowly switch them to what I feed mine? I feed a 14% pelleted feed mixed with omolene 200 on a 2:1 ratio and they are doing great. Thanks Kristy

There are things you can do to help this besides correcting his trim. He needs exercise and lots of it. Get him out there and get him moving. Avoid circles and tight corners if possible, lots of straight-line work and hill work are best. My surgeon was emphatic on the importance of cavaletti exercises and several articles I've read about strengthening stifles recommend walking slowly over a line of 5 or 6 slightly raised poles, the theory being that as with human strength training slower is harder and therefore better. Think Tai Chi. Regular trotting over that same line of poles (moved further apart, of course) is also good. Do make sure they are getting plenty of selenium and perhaps drop his protein levels a bit if possible. None of that made any difference with my horse but it doesn't hurt and rumor says it has helped some horses with milder versions of the problem. Getting the extra weight off him will help those joints too. I have mine on a joint supplement to prevent any arthritis or joint damage from the problem and you might consider doing the same just to be safe.

Good luck and I'm sorry this has happened to you. Having spent three frustrating years dealing with a severe case of this problem in my beloved gelding I would never wish it on another horse. Ever.

Leia

 

[Janis]

I really like this forum and have been a visitor for many years. I post from time to time, add my opinion here and there but I NEVER claim to be an expert, a vet or anything like that. But I am NOT an idiot! I try my best to tell everyone that buys our horses the good, the bad and the ugly about every horse. I know as well as everyone else that NO horse is perfect as well as NO person is perfect. I'm so glad that some people know EVERYTHING there is to know about horses. I don't know everything, I learn something new everyday, from my horses! I've learned to take alot of what is said on this forum with a grain of salt, I just hope everyone else will learn that what is said here is not LAW or the GOSPEL, it's people's opinion and everyone has one.

 

[kaykay]

Janis

Im a little perplexed why you are so upset. I do not claim to be an expert or a vet. I did a lot of research on this years ago when I purchased a horse with locking stifle. Since that time I have seen so many miniatures with this problem and have seen hundreds of posts on people with horses that have it --- that you know it is a huge problem. People know that all they are getting on here is opinions and anyone who owns horses should research these things on their own.

I should clarify and say I have seen young horses do it and out grow it by one year. But in MY OPINION if they are still locking after a year its permanent.

I whole heartedly agree there ARE NO PERFECT HORSES or people!!

 

[Janis]

Oh, I'm not upset. I just get a little put out because some people THINK they know it all and if others don't believe that way it's a sign of "ignorance". I agree that it's a problem in minis. We pay alot of attention to our horses watching for signs of problems. But for someone to say they KNOW that it can't be caused this way or that, really gets me going - Especially when we have a vet, that has done nothing but work with horses all of her practice, state that she thinks that this could cause that or that can cause it. I'm a whole lot more inclined to believe her with her education and background than someone on this board that "knows". She agrees that there needs to be alot more research on this subject and so do I, that way we can say with certainty THIS is was causes it and NOTHING else.

 

[kaykay]

I just posted my opinion after talking it over with 2 universities and numerous vets. ISU did do a study on it and concluded that nutrition had nothing to do with it (a lot of people about 6 years ago used to blame it on too much protein in the diet) The conclusion was that it was inhertied and genetic. I have asked so many vets and never had one say it was anything but genetic. Which is unusual because usually you will get different opinions even among vets.

I do wish there were more studies. And anything is possible with an injury etc.

Everyone should ask for themselves and research it and come to their own conclusion. For me its not worth taking the chance of breeding it in but thats just me.

I have never said or implied that anyone was ignorant

 

[HGFarm]

I agree with kaykay and the research done on this issue. I have also listened to vets over the years, have been on other farms when their vets were there, or talked with other horse folks who have had the problem. I have never heard a vet state that this could be caused by bad trimming, but only made more evident by bad trimming and confinement also.

Most vets I know recommend FORCED excercise to get the horse in shape- not just letting them out in a pasture to play at their leisure. Leia has some good recommendations that sounds similar to what I have heard vets recommend to clients horses. The owner's vet could certainly recommend the best program for the horse in question here.

Nobody here has claimed to be a vet or have all the answers, but please do not discount people's research, years of experience, etc.... and their opinions here as claiming to 'know it all'. Why would this conversation turn into that type of discussion?!

 

[Janis]

I, myself, do not believe that nutrition causes this, but I'm not going to tell someone that it's a sign of ignorance if they believe that.

I have a filly that was sold then a month or so later the owner called and said she was popping. We picked her up, refunded the $$ and brought her home. She was on stall rest and meds for about a week. She is much better now but still pops from time to time. Before she left we had NEVER noticed a problem, Nothing. I don't know what happened to her while she was gone, I can't speculate but I do know we never heard her pop before and she had never locked up. Now, she'll be sold as a pet, as will her dam. We don't know - that's the bottom line. But, I don't think genetics show up out of the blue.

KayKay, I didn't say you called me ignorant, or anyone else, but it was referenced in an earlier post to be a sign of ignorance.

I'm sorry the post got off subject.

 

[K&H Miniatures]

I am sorry that this post has come to what it has. I am new at minis and have been told by a "mini" horse farrier that this is what has happened. I don't hear him "pop" when he is moving. It is there just the same though. In my personal opinion, even though I am new at this, it is not genetic with this horse, but poor farrier work combined with possibly being stalled too much. As I said before I am a physical therapist assistant and have worked with many "humans" that have other problems caused by another injury or "mess" up by a doctor. Why is it any different in horses. If this happens to us, why not them? I can see where it could be caused by poor farrier work or just someone not knowledgeble with minis.

I may be wrong, but this is my opinion. I have not decided whether or not to breed Duke or not. Since it to me is not conformation issue I may in the future. My focus when purchasing these two wonderful guys were for mainly to learn how to show. I have always loved horses. Yes, I want to acquire some great mares over the next few years, but at the moment I just want to learn about these wonderful creatures.

I am sorry if some think "I am barn blind" I am not that at all and was a little hurt by that comment. I have been hurt/upset on here before, and wish it hadn't happened again. If was to turn out to be from confirmation, then I of course would not breed him, but it is not conformation with him in my opinion.

Also, after bringing them home I got a closer look at their feet and knew my farrier was coming out for my grade horses. I had been told they had just been done, but they didn't look right at all to me. So, thank goodness I had Dawn look at them. He is moving better already and I am going to start him on a daily exercise program. He is not used to my place yet, so I will have to give him time to adjust to me and the p lace as well. I make people exercise all day long. I agree that sometimes slow is better than fast. The muscles have to work harder, and thus you have a better contraction. Anyway, thanks. If anyone else has any further advice on what I can do for him such as exercise or feeding or supplements please let me know. Thanks Kristy Just trying to learn and take care of my horses to the best of my ability.

 

[HGFarm]

On a more serious note, I have known 'farriers' whose real occupations have run from 'fireman' to 'office manager'. They filled in with extra money or between jobs, as a farrier!! We saw some of the messes left behind them, but we have also seen some disasters by some who shoe as a full time job!

If it were my horse, rather than second guessing, I would have my own vet examine and diagnose the horse, as that is what they are trained in/for. I would not accept the opinion of anything less than a licensed vet.

I have seen horses in the past that hung up so badly because of stifles they couldnt walk- and I didnt always hear a pop- sometimes nothing at all- they just couldnt unlock. I know of a breeder who had a mare that was terrible, yet that mare continued to be bred every year, and every foal developed the problem- one had to be put down as a yearling it was SO crippled and had just been let go....... it was heartbreaking to even watch it.

Your vet can tell you if the problem is because of conformation or..... ??? Your vet can usually give you some pretty good advice and instruction on things, and is a great person to learn from as well.

I have also seen problems in people that were caused by someone else in the medical field, from an injury, etc... however it is usually easy to tell that the person was not born with the problem or developed it as a young adult, etc... on their own.

It is obvious that you care and are concerned for your horse, or you would not have posted for information here... I hope that you have your vet check the horse over so you can fully know what is going on there.

 

[Fred]

I am sorry you were hurt by the barn blind comment but I don't think you really understood what I said. I said I have good friends that keep me humble and keep ME from becoming barn blind. It was not aimed at you. I am a full time farrier, that is my sole income and have been doing so for many years. I also see Freisans that have passed inspection that lock up. Linda

 

[Minimor]

Miniature horse owners do tend to come up with every excuse in the book for why their horse is locking, yet shouldn't be gelded or removed from the breeding pool. I would suggest that every person who has a horse that is locking should take a long hard look at that horse's stifle conformation. Look at a lot of stifles and learn what is good stifle conformation and what is bad stifle conformation. This isn't just directed at the original poster, but at everyone!

Locking stifle is a major problem in the Miniature breed, and it's going to continue to be a problem in the breed until more people start being honest with themselves and really look at stifle conformation and admit that there are conformational issues behind most cases of locking stifle! As far as injury, it's generally a very specific type of injury that causes a stifle to lock up afterwards. Most stifle injuries do not cause locking--they cause lameness, yet, and even luxation, but most locking stifles that are attributed to injury are actually not caused by the injury. Most people who claim injury don't even know that there was an injury, they just think there must have been because the horse has "perfect" conformation and the locking started up so suddenly.

Bad trims can make a mess of legs, and can even worsen an existing condition or predisposition to that condition. I simply don't believe that a horse with good stifle conformation will start locking because of a bad trim, or even an ongoing series of bad trims. I don't believe that nutrition causes locking stifle, though certainly I believe that it can cause problems in a horse that is predisposed to the condition. I have these beliefs because of 40+ years of being around horses, and from as many years in talking to owners and vets and farriers, and as many years of studying conformation. Yeah, I grew up tagging along after my mom while she worked with all sorts of horses on a variety of farms...listening to her talk to people about horses....I grew up with horses, not kids!!! There's nothing I've ever seen/heard/read that indicates bad trimming will ruin a good stifle.

I've bought horses--and been around plenty of others, big horses as well as little ones-- that had little or no hoof care...long feet, broken off feet, long toes....and still no stifle problems...but then these horses didn't have weak stifle conformation.

Do you KNOW what constitutes good stifle conformation? And what makes poor stifle conformation? Again, this question is for all, not specifically directed at the OP.

 

[disneyhorse]

Excellent post, Minimor.

I think the problem is, we invest so much in our horses that it is devastating to realize our horse has locking stifles. Genetic, and simply aggravated by (trimming, nutrition, exercise)? I tend to think so.

Most other breeds I have known, come up with "other" issues. Such as epiphicytis (goodness I think I spelled that wrong). Minis, no... no epiphicytis, they got a locking stifle.

It is very VERY hard to give up on a colt that has locking stifle. I had to do it myself. It was sort of a judgement call... do I continue to feed and put money into this horse, only to geld it (which unfortunately in the mini industry means a severe devaluation) and perhaps do the ethical thing to make him more comfortable by performing a surgery? To do the RIGHT thing costs a TON of money, and most people would rather find an excuse.

I sort of chickened out on my locking stifle colt, I sent him back to the breeder and got NO money back. Yeah, my loss but could have been a bigger loss in the future. And I really LIKED that colt.

But by breeding horses with "issues" that we don't know 100% what caused them, we are making MORE horses with "issues" and that is just not the ethical thing to do as a breeder.

I have known, by the way, SEVERAL people who have done the "right thing" and gelded horses with locking stifles. And kudos to all of you. There ARE ethical breeders out there, but I don't think they are the majority.

Andrea

 

[K&H Miniatures]

Excellent post, Minimor.

I think the problem is, we invest so much in our horses that it is devastating to realize our horse has locking stifles. Genetic, and simply aggravated by (trimming, nutrition, exercise)? I tend to think so.

Most other breeds I have known, come up with "other" issues. Such as epiphicytis (goodness I think I spelled that wrong). Minis, no... no epiphicytis, they got a locking stifle.

It is very VERY hard to give up on a colt that has locking stifle. I had to do it myself. It was sort of a judgement call... do I continue to feed and put money into this horse, only to geld it (which unfortunately in the mini industry means a severe devaluation) and perhaps do the ethical thing to make him more comfortable by performing a surgery? To do the RIGHT thing costs a TON of money, and most people would rather find an excuse.

I sort of chickened out on my locking stifle colt, I sent him back to the breeder and got NO money back. Yeah, my loss but could have been a bigger loss in the future. And I really LIKED that colt.

But by breeding horses with "issues" that we don't know 100% what caused them, we are making MORE horses with "issues" and that is just not the ethical thing to do as a breeder.

I have known, by the way, SEVERAL people who have done the "right thing" and gelded horses with locking stifles. And kudos to all of you. There ARE ethical breeders out there, but I don't think they are the majority.

Andrea

To me now that he has had a good trim, it seems more like a contracture than stifle, but I am not sure. He is moving so much better now. I still do not think it is confirmation. I exercised him this evening and he did great. His does not stay locked anyway. He will not be guelded at this time. Some may think it is the right thing to do and I definetely agree if it is a confirmation issue, but in his case it is not a confirmation problem. I am not just making excuses either. Think about the science of the movement itself. If a foot(hoof is off) then you have ligaments and tendons that develop contractures secondary to the hoof problem. No enough was trimmed from these horses which forced their ligaments/muscles to make up for in some form or fashion. They have probably been trimmed this way for awhile and it is going to take time. No, I am not an expert or even think anywhere close. I do know about muscles, ligaments, and injuries in us. I personally can't see the difference. Muscles, ligaments, and tendons all work the same.

I do not have a vet very close that is knowledgeable with minis. Dawn recommended a guy in Norman Oklahoma that could xray him and do the stifle surgery if that is the problem. Since he is doing so much better just after one good trim, we are going to wait a little while. Thanks

 

[disneyhorse]

Just throwing this out there, too...

If a "bad trim" could make a horse's stifles lock up, wouldn't those Modern Shetlands and Saddlebreds and OTHER breeds which have horrendously grown feet and weighted shoes and such get locking stifle?

Or draft horses, which have scotch bottom shoes in front and then the back feet are only trimmed in the insides so the outside heel grows super long and tries to exaggerate cowhocks and hind end motion aggravate at least SOME of these breeds?

Not all of these breeds are trimmed by "expert farriers" so I'm sure some are not done "properly" yet I haven't really heard of as many locking stifle as the miniature breed?

Andrea

 

[hahler]

ok bare with me I'm trying to do this from my cell phone. what I meant about it being caused by a "big" horse farrier is that duke was probably picked up to high in both back legs. he had all heel and no toe typical for inexperienced mini farriers. I also do the breeders horses and have never seen any kind of problem. in all fairness that is the way farriers are taught on full sizers around here they don't teach the little differences between the to. hope that clears up some of the controvercy. if there r any questions feel free to contact me

 

[Minimor]

The thing is--a horse with locking stifles is actually helped by rolling the toe and raising the heel--in a big horse, if a horse has a problem with locking up the farrier will often put wedges on him. I do know of some horses that have been "corrected" that way and it did help the condition.

 

[hahler]

he was severely clubbed all around yes rolling the toe does help but there was no rolling done in this instance. it is correctable and If I had mini mares I wouldn't be afraid to breed to this stud. ok nuff said from me and I will do everything in my power to correct it. anyone who has tried to type on forums from a cell has my respect. fat fingers and little keys. lol