Love :)

[Jill]

I just want to chime in and basically echo what Sonya has said.

While my opinion is different than Jayne's and while I feel a closeness to God that is not effected by my feelings of support for gays, I admire that she spoke up and told us how she feels when she knew that was the minority opinion when it comes to this discussion (as contained here). She has consistently stated how she feels in past conversations in much the same way and I don't feel she's forcing anything on anyone. My perspective is that Jayne has said "This is how I feel, and why I feel that way."

Also, I have a lot of mixed feelings regarding Prop. 8. My dilemma is that the it was open to a public vote and while it didn't go the way I personally would have voted, in this Nation, how do we rightfully try to set aside the will of the people? I have no idea the right answer.

I support an equal legal status to be available to gay couples as it is to straight couples. I disagree that marriage is a religious matter. Mine had nothing to do with the church. It only had to do with the court and the justice of the peace.

 

[osu_barrelracer]

I don't think Jayne is trying to force her beliefs...the original poster asked why, and she tried to answered why she doesn't agree with it. I don't know why everyone is surprised by her reasoning...obviously the majority feel similiar/same as her. And of course if she is going to defend her position, she is going to use her interpretation of the bible which is what she uses as a basis to lead her life.
I am not saying I agree with her because I don't , but to chastise her for her beliefs is no different than others chastising homosexuals, or anyone else for that matter, for thiers.

When someone makes a decision about what I can or can't do with my life (aka voting on prop 8) It does force their opinion/belief onto us. Gay marriage is about equality. Not religion. We allow Muslims and Jews and all other non-christians to get married. My being married to my wife, has not affected any other person anywhere.

As I stated before, I do not have a problem with her choice not to support gay marriage. She has a right not to. But, I have a problem with people who pick and choose things out of the bible to apply. You can't deny someone something because of one "sin" and not another. Thats discrimination.

 

[barnbum]

but to chastise her for her beliefs is no different than others chastising homosexuals, or anyone else for that matter, for thiers.

Bingo. I think this will mostly be a supporters post, since those who do not will get blasted, and there's no benefit in that. Bravo to Jayne to stating her beliefs.

I am a very traditional, conservative, Bible following person.

 

[Sonya]

I wouldn't say the fact that someone voted against same sex marriages is forcing their beliefs on others...frankly thats the gov't...they have asked the people and the people voted..yes based on their beliefs but it's the govt who wrote/enforces it....and alot have brought up that marriage is just a civil union...for many it is more spiritual than just a civil arrangement and many deeply religous people believe that...

To overturn the vote would be a travesty...isn't that what voting is about...I didn't like the outcome of the last presidential election, along with many others, does that mean we overturn it?

There will always be people who disagree with same sex marriages...you can not make them accept it but you can teach tolerance...which is a small step but at least a step.

 

[osu_barrelracer]

I wouldn't say the fact that someone voted against same sex marriages is forcing their beliefs on others...frankly thats the gov't...they have asked the people and the people voted..yes based on their beliefs but it's the govt who wrote/enforces it....and alot have brought up that marriage is just a civil union...for many it is more spiritual than just a civil arrangement and many deeply religous people believe that...
To overturn the vote would be a travesty...isn't that what voting is about...I didn't like the outcome of the last presidential election, along with many others, does that mean we overturn it?

There will always be people who disagree with same sex marriages...you can not make them accept it but you can teach tolerance...which is a small step but at least a step.

I'm not attacking anyone's religion. She stated her opinion and reasoning for it. And I stated mine against hers. I spent a lot of years in the Catholic Church, and I just don't believe that you should stand behind the bible when talking about gay marriage. It's picking and choosing. And I think that is wrong. Gay or not.

It simply just IS NOT an issue of Religion! Its basic rights.

And for the record lol. . . I DID NOT vote for our current president

 

[LowriseMinis]

Gay marriage is not an issue of faith, religion, or beliefs. Same sex marriage is an issue of equality and legality. We have THREE classes of people in CA, now. Straight people who are and can marry as they wish, homosexual couples who are married, and homosexual couples who can't marry. The couples who can't marry and barred from marrying because of their gender and sexual orientation.

It is discrimination.

They were granted rights, and the majority VOTED to remove their rights. Please stop and think about that-the majority were able to REMOVE RIGHTS from a minority group. That is a frightening precedent to set, isn't it? If they can do it to homosexuals...

In the end, no one is asking anyone to change what they believe. No one's forcing any church to perform or recognize a marriage they do not agree with. You can believe that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

Everyone deserves to be equal under the law, and they will be.

 

[Jill]

They were granted rights, and the majority VOTED to remove their rights. Please stop and think about that-the majority were able to REMOVE RIGHTS from a minority group. That is a frightening precedent to set, isn't it? If they can do it to homosexuals...

That may be the grounds to have it over turned. Makes sense to me the way you've said it (*smile* -- We agree... it was bound to happen sooner or later!).

 

[LowriseMinis]

(*smile* -- We agree... it was bound to happen sooner or later!).

I was looking for a hi-5 smily-I guess we don't have one!

Adding in: Looking at it that way, it is no longer an issue of gay marriage, or gay rights (or GLBTQ rights, to be all-inclusive). It is a matter of civil rights. Equality under the law. California, after all, is a republic. One of the duties of a republic is to protect the minority from the 'tyranny of the majority'. California has failed to do that this time.

 

[SilverDollar]

I have a question that I don't want anyone to think is a "red herring", but...what about polygamy? I'm serious. I am a huge fan of the HBO series "Big Love". While I understand that on that show (and in most publicized cases of polygamy) it's about the religion and, many times, underage people, but what if someone wants to marry more than one person? Would there be anything wrong with that from a legal standpoint? (Other than it is currently illegal like gay marriage.) Couldn't/shouldn't that be added to the gay rights marriage scenario? I'm not talking about underage boys or girls but situations where it's agreed upon by all parties concerned and that's how they want to live their lives. If children can have two moms or two dads, what would be wrong with having two moms and one dad, or two dads and one mom?

Just curious. I would think it's the same argument as gay marriage. Living in California myself I think it's only a matter of time before that would get put on the ballot. Seeing as we're in such a financial crisis here, let's just put it all on one new ballot to save some money!

(I don't mean any disrespect to those in favor of gay marriage with this question so I hope no one is offended. As for the Bible issues with this, I'm not questioning that part of it. I think I know the answer.)

(Personally I couldn't handle more than one husband!

)

 

[MiniMaid]

I have a question that I don't want anyone to think is a "red herring", but...what about polygamy? I'm serious. I am a huge fan of the HBO series "Big Love". While I understand that on that show (and in most publicized cases of polygamy) it's about the religion and, many times, underage people, but what if someone wants to marry more than one person? Would there be anything wrong with that from a legal standpoint? (Other than it is currently illegal like gay marriage.) Couldn't/shouldn't that be added to the gay rights marriage scenario? I'm not talking about underage boys or girls but situations where it's agreed upon by all parties concerned and that's how they want to live their lives. If children can have two moms or two dads, what would be wrong with having two moms and one dad, or two dads and one mom?
Just curious. I would think it's the same argument as gay marriage. Living in California myself I think it's only a matter of time before that would get put on the ballot. Seeing as we're in such a financial crisis here, let's just put it all on one new ballot to save some money!

(I don't mean any disrespect to those in favor of gay marriage with this question so I hope no one is offended. As for the Bible issues with this, I'm not questioning that part of it. I think I know the answer.)

(Personally I couldn't handle more than one husband!

)

I think if all the other wives, and husbands are OK with it people should be allowed to have more then one spouse.

 

[LowriseMinis]

(Personally I couldn't handle more than one husband!

)

I don't think I could, either!

I have to issue a few caveats before I go into this. One, it is a red herring because the two movements are not related. Two, the two movements are not related. I hate the "If this, then this" arguments because they do imply a direct connection. "If we let gay people get married people will marry goats next!" Ahem, anyway...

If you asked me this two years ago, my basic response to polygamy would have been "Ew, no, no way", but frankly this movement HAS made me rethink that. Polygamy isn't something I want for myself. It isn't something I necessarily agree with. Frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable. There's a lot of negative stigma around it-things you mentioned like overbearing religion and underage participants.

But if we are talking about a group of consenting adults wanting to enter into a legally recognized union...I have a hard time gathering any ire for them, or any will to stop them. Yes, it could get complicated. Some sort of system would have to be worked out to deal with legal issues arising from a marriage like that. I think it could be done, though.

If one of my friends or family told me they were a polygamist, then I'd show up at their marches and rallies in support. Otherwise, I might simply vote with them to give them the equal rights under the law that they desire and deserve.

 

[TripleDstables]

You always see warning labels on things that could hurt you. So if you are sensitive about your beliefs and love your god dearly... don't read this I guess.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was raised catholic. Then my mother switched to a lutheran church. I despised all of it. When I would ask questions, I was told "Not to question him and all that he created" which is bologna. I saw right through all of the contradictions and improbable things they were telling me. I cannot grasp the concept of bowing down to a big man in the sky that we cannot see and reading a book written by another man and actually believing that he controls my life and the world around me. I don't believe in wishing on shooting stars, karma, or that my life has already been planned out for me by someone else. I don't capitalize the name or the word "he" and never have unless it's at the beginning of a sentence. I have no god in my life, and I couldn't be happier.

My personal opinion is that people use faith as an excuse to erase their wrong doings, that they know are wrong. Why do people chose faith? I'm not sure. Maybe they lack structure in their lives, or are lost and need something to follow. I rather collect stamps. I don't need an explanation for what I do. I don't need to answer to anyone for my actions. I'm not committing a crime, and I'm not going to heck for putting my elbows on the table. If there is a big man shaking his finger at me up there, I can't see him anyways.

The fact that people "of god" feel that they can judge others, sickens me. If they are "of god" like they say, then they know that he is the only one that can judge. Going by their beliefs of course. Which religion is always called "belief" which I find funny. I've never heard someone say that unless they were unsure of themself. But then again, everyone sins and everyone is forgiven. So whats the point anyways?

I support gay marriage.

I'm completely straight and I know they should have the same rights as me. They are people. They've committed no crime against me. Their marriage effects me none, it just makes them happy. And, if you're against that... well you have worse problems than being homosexual...

I think polygamy is... different. If it makes you happy though... more power to you. It doesn't effect me. So I don't mind if it goes on. I'm open minded. I don't think I need to rule other people's lives. I don't judge. It's not my place. It's no ones. I think the government needs a kick in the rear for trying to control what we can do as well. I understand laws for drugs and traffic and such... but who we can marry? Thats extreme. I think it's time for a governmental reform.

If anyone is offended... well. Thats a shame. I don't know what else to say besides that.

 

[~Lisa~]

I truly do not see why in the year 2009, we are STILL making these things such issues...*sigh*

The fact that people "of god" feel that they can judge others, sickens me. If they are "of god" like they say, then they know that he is the only one that can judge

I could not agree more. Saying it is a religious thing or a Christian thing or a bible thing is just a crock.

If only we as a society were just as concerned with the amount of petifiles on the loose, or battered women, or abused and neglected children - or the amount of homeless women and children and how many kids go to bed and to school hungry every day.

But, again, why do you care? If I am going to heck...God will decide that. If it's "wrong" for me to declare a beautiful bond with the person I love, why are you judging that? I

Matt you are correct for anyone else to decide who is sinful and going to H E L L makes no sense to me but no matter I have been told many a time I am going to H E L L right here on this very forum. Due to the type of parent I am and the type of dogs I owned and who knows what else

(and I am straight lol) but no worries I have my handbasket decorated and ready to go

 

[LowriseMinis]

If only we as a society were just as concerned with the amount of petifiles on the loose, or battered women, or abused and neglected children - or the amount of homeless women and children and how many kids go to bed and to school hungry every day.

The anti-gay marriage folks out here like to label their side as being pro family, and for the children. What I've found though is when they say "for the children" they mean for THEIR children. They seem to forget that there are kids out there with LGBTQ parents. Kids and teens who grew up being taunted by THEIR kids, because their parents felt it was okay to teach them to hate, or at very least never taught them to be tolerant.

They seem to forget that about 1 in 10 (or so?) people are gay. Odds are, some of their kids are going to grow up gay. Do they want their kids to repress themselves out of fear? To have to lie, and hide? Or would they rather love them for who they are, and still be able to sit in the front row at their son or daughter's wedding?

In addition, I heard this weekend that the suicide rate for LGBTQ teens is four times higher than it is for straight teens. That figure jumps to NINE TIMES higher if those teenagers come from families that are considered 'unaccepting'.

So, who's for the children, exactly?

 

[LindaL]

In addition, I heard this weekend that the suicide rate for LGBTQ teens is four times higher than it is for straight teens. That figure jumps to NINE TIMES higher if those teenagers come from families that are considered 'unaccepting'.
So, who's for the children, exactly?

This is indirectly related, yet is related by your statement...People Magazine had an article recently about two 11 year old boys who committed suicide for being bullied for being "gay". Children use words like that a lot even if they do not know exactly what it means, but obviously "gay" for these boys (whether they were gay or not) had such a bad connotation that they felt the need to end their lives!

How sad that just the possibility of being "gay" should EVER have such an affect on anyone's life!!

Being gay has NO affect on anyone's life other than the people involved with them sexually...NONE! Denying a person's right to love and marry someone based ONLY on their sexual orientation is wrong...I do not understand how someone has the right to say "because I think this is sinful I am denying you this right." Well, I am here to tell you that I DID marry another woman and I am happy and live my life in a such a way that I do NO harm to anyone, so why the H E L L (was gonna say something else....

) does ANYONE care?? I need to stop or

.... :arg! :arg!

 

[miniwhinny]

TripleDstables...

THANK DOG !!!!!!!!!!! At last a thinking human YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooo BRAVO for EVERYTHING you just said

"what another human brave enough to admit that you really DON'T hear voices in your head other than your own mind thinking"

 

[osu_barrelracer]

In addition, I heard this weekend that the suicide rate for LGBTQ teens is four times higher than it is for straight teens. That figure jumps to NINE TIMES higher if those teenagers come from families that are considered 'unaccepting'.
So, who's for the children, exactly?

This is indirectly related, yet is related by your statement...People Magazine had an article recently about two 11 year old boys who committed suicide for being bullied for being "gay". Children use words like that a lot even if they do not know exactly what it means, but obviously "gay" for these boys (whether they were gay or not) had such a bad connotation that they felt the need to end their lives!

How sad that just the possibility of being "gay" should EVER have such an affect on anyone's life!!

Being gay has NO affect on anyone's life other than the people involved with them sexually...NONE! Denying a person's right to love and marry someone based ONLY on their sexual orientation is wrong...I do not understand how someone has the right to say "because I think this is sinful I am denying you this right." Well, I am here to tell you that I DID marry another woman and I am happy and live my life in a such a way that I do NO harm to anyone, so why the H E L L (was gonna say something else....

) does ANYONE care?? I need to stop or

.... :arg! :arg!

Oh Don't stop preaching now! lol

I have never hid the fact that I was gay. Everyone has always supported me in everything I have done.

I fell in love with the most beautiful woman in the world. We are so lucky to have each other, and our lives are better for it.

BUT, I can't marry her here (smack in the bible belt in Oklahoma)...BUT Dumb a s s redneck down the road from us has all the right in the world to get drunk, go on a spree and marry some random girl from the local dump of a bar...then wake up in the morning and realize oh crap and just get divorced. And he can do it over and over again as many times as he likes.

But I can't get married? How does that make any sense?

But you know what, I love my wife. And I enjoyed the trip to Canada

 

[LindaL]

But you know what, I love my wife. And I enjoyed the trip to Canada

YOU GO GIRL!!

 

[SilverDollar]

(Personally I couldn't handle more than one husband!

)

I don't think I could, either!

I have to issue a few caveats before I go into this. One, it is a red herring because the two movements are not related. Two, the two movements are not related. I hate the "If this, then this" arguments because they do imply a direct connection. "If we let gay people get married people will marry goats next!" Ahem, anyway...

If you asked me this two years ago, my basic response to polygamy would have been "Ew, no, no way", but frankly this movement HAS made me rethink that. Polygamy isn't something I want for myself. It isn't something I necessarily agree with. Frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable. There's a lot of negative stigma around it-things you mentioned like overbearing religion and underage participants.

But if we are talking about a group of consenting adults wanting to enter into a legally recognized union...I have a hard time gathering any ire for them, or any will to stop them. Yes, it could get complicated. Some sort of system would have to be worked out to deal with legal issues arising from a marriage like that. I think it could be done, though.

If one of my friends or family told me they were a polygamist, then I'd show up at their marches and rallies in support. Otherwise, I might simply vote with them to give them the equal rights under the law that they desire and deserve.

I disagree...it is not a red herring. (I knew someone would bring up the "...marrying animals" thing.

) I brought up polygamy because it challenges peoples' sense of what's been "normal" and "acceptable" for a very long time, just like the concept of gay marriage. I would speculate that most heterosexual married people as well as gay married people wouldn't want polygamy for themselves, but I suspect there is a small segment of the population that might want polygamy in their own lives (yes, consenting adults only). There are other cultures in the world that embrace polygamy. My point is that there will always be some segment of the population that will want something that is not the "norm". Not everyone will be comfortable, but it's critical that we try to see all sides of peoples' opinions and beliefs and respect each other. I don't like the assumptions and blanket statements made on both sides of the gay marriage issue--it's gotten pretty ugly with people on both sides spewing hate. I hope people can just agree to disagree as they passionately stand for their beliefs.

 

[LindaL]

Not everyone will be comfortable, but it's critical that we try to see all sides of peoples' opinions and beliefs and respect each other. I don't like the assumptions and blanket statements made on both sides of the gay marriage issue--it's gotten pretty ugly with people on both sides spewing hate. I hope people can just agree to disagree as they passionately stand for their beliefs.

I do agree to disagree...which is why I didn't keep coming back to respond to every post. I do NOT hate, nor do I disrespect those with different views than my own...HOWEVER, it is when those views are PUSHED onto ME (and MY rights are taken away) that I must take a stand. It is OK for those who don't believe in gay marriage to not believe in it...but it is NOT Ok for them to subject me to those same beliefs and expect me to live my life according to what they think is "right and wrong". There is a difference in agreeing to disagree and speaking your mind...and my opinions are only meant to make a point....never to spew hate or hurt anyone for their beliefs.