Measuring Proposal

[drivinghoss]

Any proposal that will change the standard of registering horses is bigger than a single convention or Board of Directors.

If the Board is truly wise they will recoginize that changing the registery standard is bad for business.

Any proposal this big should be put to a vote of all the members of ASPC/AMHR. Send out a ballot and let people read the proposals and make up their minds and vote by secret ballot.

 

[~Lisa~]

"Fifty some years ago when the Shetland market was at it's lowest point, some breeders rebranded their smaller Shetland ponies as Miniature Horses. Fast forward to today and the current trend of cheap hardshipping of ever taller horses, Shetland ponies, and Hackney ponies which dilutes the very successful Miniature Horse brand. Our new customers can no longer see the difference between a pony and a miniature horse, the only people who benefit from this change are the Shetland pony breeders who now have a new market for the smaller ponies. The ASPC - AMHR is sacrificing long term demand for the Miniautre Horse for short term increases in revenue."

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]

I agree fully.

Iam not sure what the answer is as it will effect others but then again what is happenening now is effecting others

maybe the real answer here when looking out for the AMHR registry is to leave the height and measuring where it is and simply close hardship to anyone and everyone? I am not sure

 

[AshleyNicole]

I am fiercely opposed to changing where we measure. Why should I be forced to change my breeding program, that I have spent 17 years of blood, sweat , tears and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ developing, just because *some* people cheat at shows? Why should I have to be the one to adjust my life and whole herd because some people can't enforce the rules or write them them better?

Even if they are changed, there will still be cheaters and still people that make mistakes trying to enforce them (I'm NOT talking about everyone, but the ones that caused this to be an issue in the 1st place)

I say, leave it alone and just enforce it, re-write it better, set down uniform standards etc.

Most people are thinking of showing or show horses. I'm thinking of horses LIVES and how they'll be affected if they're suddenly not worth diddly. It's hard enough marketing NICE registered horses, I hate to think about horses that are suddenly "grade".

Sorry, I must have put on my grumpy old lady suit today, but that's how I feel. I'm usually quiet, but I feel very strongly about this.

I agree!!! Horses will be suddenly worthless even if they are grandfathered in....who wants a horse that will produce something oversized.... It is not fair that a few people get to decide what happens to the rest of us. I agree with the person who said that this is for the few that sell overseas. Although I know that another reason is that measuring needs to be fixed or enforced better, but at least add a couple of inches so that current stock isn't suddenly worthless. I fear that a lot of the breeding stock will end up like Champ.....This will affect not only the future of AMHR but also the horses who suddenly no one wants. Also what about the many small breeders who can't suddenly even in two years rework their breeding programs?? Is AMHR going to reimburse those who have spent money, time, etc into their breeding programs only to have the rules changed and suddenly valuable horses aren't worth anything? The small breeders are the majority of AMHR and if you try to please the few and forget the many it is very bad business and I think the registry will regret it in the long run really....

 

[kaykay]

The small breeders are the majority of AMHR and if you try to please the few and forget the many it is very bad business and I think the registry will regret it in the long run really....

Amen sister. I have said for years that the small little farms are what enables this registry to continue. They are the ones that pay to register, pay trainers, pay to show locally, pay pay and pay some more. They are without a doubt the backbone of the registry but have very little say in what goes on.

For most small farms its not that they dont want to go to convention and be able to have their say, they simply cant afford it or cant be away from their farm that long as they dont have a hired staff to care for horses while they are gone etc.

THE MAJORITY DO NOT WANT THEM.. yes it may just be a name and calling them minis made them more marketable- that is evident in the amount registered and amount of revenue brought in from minis compared to ponies.

If no one wants them and they are such a tiny percentage then who cares? And how could they have such a huge impact? Doesnt make sense.

Again fix the problem where it lies and stop blaming registration papers. The issue isnt Shetland ponies its having stewards measure properly and enforcing the rule book.

Kay

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I agree fully. Yes these small ponies have been around for ever but gues what the reality is and was THE MAJORITY DO NOT WANT THEM.. yes it may just be a name and calling them minis made them more marketable- that is evident in the amount registered and amount of revenue brought in from minis compared to ponies.

People (the majority) still do not want "ponies" and if we make AMHR a a small sized ASPC registry then yes we will lose people in the long run. I have been saying that for a couple of years now.

There is a reason that ASPC was and still is not even close to as marketable as Miniature Horses again it may just be in a name but whatever the reason both ASPC and AMHR need to realize

and think ahead as to what would happen if AMHR lost revenue.. it would change a lot of things for both and frankly it is only a matter of time.

This is not about who is winning in the ring that is a small percent of mini owners this is about the perception (and somewhat of a truth) that AMHR is becoming nothing but a place for small ponies.

I simply do not understand the failure to see if ponies are still not as marketable to the public as a whole today then what on earth makes anyone think they will be in the long run marketable to the public as a whole as ASPC registered minis?

Of course ASPC breeders love this it is what they have wanted for years who would not want the demand for their ponies to increase however the fact is the demand is not raised by the public as a whole or the majority the demand is up from the small percentage that show and I do think it will effect our AMHR registry negatively in the long run.

Iam not sure what the answer is as it will effect others but then again what is happenening now is effecting others

maybe the real answer here when looking out for the AMHR registry is to leave the height and measuring where it is and simply close hardship to anyone and everyone? I am not sure

Lisa I totally agree. I know many are tired of going against the shetlands they either are just giving up competely or are switching to AMHA. So I think AMHR is loosing either way.

 

[~Lisa~]

Well kay the difference they are making is the perception.. marketing remember is all about perception

Just like some may give the perception they are an expert - others will buy it be it the truth or not if they market themselves well enough that it becomes a common perception

The perception is AMHR is now a place for ponies so yes that perception could very well make a very big difference in the future of AMHR seeing as many who do not even show small farms have the perception that for their horses to be marketable - their programs to profit they must add ASPC

Of course not all perceptions are based in truth but often times truth doesnt seem to matter the perception takes precedent

 

[Minimor]

There are so many contradictions in this. Lisa is saying no one wants them (ponies that are also AMHR registered), or at least the majority do not want them and there are so few being shown, and yet someone else said earlier on in this thread that they are changing the AMHR horses so much that Minis are no longer possible to tell apart from Shetlands. So, a big minority of people/breeders are having such an impact on the breed that they are changing (or have changed?) the entire breed into small Shetlands? Come on now, that doesn't even make sense.

The majority don't want them, so it's said, and yet there have been others complaining on this forum about how they are ruining the market for non-ASPC AMHR horses, people say they want to stop things before it gets to where they cannot sell their AMHR horses at all...fear is no one will want AMHR because they want only ASPC/AMHR. If the majoirty don't want the ASPC/AMHR horses then this shouldn't be a concern at all. The majority want and will continue to want AMHR only--a small minority will want ASPC/AMHR. So, where is the problem?

Reference has been made to only a small number of ASPC/AMHR horses being shown, yet someone commented to me yesterday that the over division at Nationals this year was "all Shetlands"...sounded like the over classes were full of Shetlands. She wasn't complaining, even though she doesn't have Shetlands, it was simply an observation on her part.

I guess I just don't see how on one hand people can state that the majority of people don't want ASPC/AMHR and yet on the other had they are fussing because ASPC/AMHR is taking over AMHR. How can there be so many ASPC/AMHR horses taking over everything when so few people supposedly want them?

I think the truth is that there are a lot of people that do want them....not the majority of Mini owners overall perhaps, but the majority of show people and the majority of breeders that breed for the show ring....really the high profile people that the public hears the most about overall, those that are putting their horses out into public view with showing and advertising...those people DO want ASPC/AMHR. I'm not sure why those exhibitors and breeders should give up their wants for that "majority" who mostly are not even affected by the ASPC/AMHR horses. Just in the people I know personally there are a fair number who don't have ASPC/AMHR, don't care if they never have ASPC/AMHR and will never see their market affected by the ASPC/AMHR horses. That "majority" doesn't really care one way or the other about what happens with ASPC/AMHR horses and the measurement issues. Some, though, would like to use that majority to suit their own agendas.

 

[~Lisa~]

AS an afterthought here instead of focusing on how much the ASPC can help improve the minis why does the ASPC not focus on improving the ponies within its registry as well as actually promoting them to the general public so that they to as they sit ASPC registered ponies in all divisions could eventually become as appealing to the general public as the miniature horse?

And yes the amount of members who show is a small percentage but the reality is in any breed good or bad what is winning in the show ring does effect how others feel about the breed and perceive what is happening in that breed. A judge said to a group of other judges ( I am paraphrasing here) we must pick carefully and as best to the standard as we can. We are what makes a breed good decisions and bad we make the breed. That is a huge responsibility. I could not agree with her more she realizes the decisons come with great perceptions about the breed to those at the show and the thousands and thousands of owners not at the show

and Holly yep you are darn right I have an agenda that agenda is simple and one I have no shame in. Keeping AMHR as financially healthy as possible. Iam one who realizes and admits and appreciates the fact that with the funds coming in from AMHR - ASPC is allowed to continue- ASPC is allowed a Congress show- I am aware of the financial statements and how Congress in one year can cost more then ASPC brings in for the year. It should be everyones agenda not to push what will maket their farm- not to belittle others for being sore losers-

But to realize that what has worked in the past to bring in the dollars - has done just that worked- what has not worked in the past to bring in a lot of revenue is still not bringing in alot of revenue.

Yep my agenda is keeping revenue coming in and looking long term as to the ramifications of AMHR being percieved as a place for ASPC ponies that cant compete in ASPC. I do not believe that to be fact.. but that is the common perception based here on this forum and out there in the mini world.

Imagine the increase in ASPC classes locally as well as at Congress if they could only show ASPC

As a AMHR member and a ASPC member I would hate for us to not look into the future and find a way to promote ponies to the outside world. To get the revenue the ASPC brings in up and even close to the revenue AMHR brings in. Only then can we have the things many members say they want a bigger Congress a bigger and better facility. A Congress equal to Nationals and a thriving AMHR industry and well as a thriving ASPC industry

 

[JMS Miniatures]

AS an afterthought here instead of focusing on how much the ASPC can help improve the minis why does the ASPC not focus on improving the ponies within its registry as well as actually promoting them to the general public so that they to as they sit ASPC registered ponies in all divisions could eventually become as appealing to the general public as the miniature horse?

I agree, I think the ASPC itself needs help in promotion, why do they need to go thru with it in AMHR? Get out there and advertise why the ASPC is so special, they can certaintly make great kids ponies.

 

[~Lisa~]

I do believe AMHR is a great place to promote the ASPC divisions - I think it is an easy market to cross over people who are already going to shows and know the farms ect. However that said I would love to see all those small Shetlands back in the Shetland ring to help increase local participation which in turn would allow more show managers to add ASPC classes to the line up.

I just think we all need to think long run and look at the bigger picture- the whole and complete picture and right now I personally do not think that is happening.

 

[OhHorsePee]

There are so many contradictions in this. Lisa is saying no one wants them (ponies that are also AMHR registered), or at least the majority do not want them and there are so few being shown, and yet someone else said earlier on in this thread that they are changing the AMHR horses so much that Minis are no longer possible to tell apart from Shetlands. So, a big minority of people/breeders are having such an impact on the breed that they are changing (or have changed?) the entire breed into small Shetlands? Come on now, that doesn't even make sense.

The majority don't want them, so it's said, and yet there have been others complaining on this forum about how they are ruining the market for non-ASPC AMHR horses, people say they want to stop things before it gets to where they cannot sell their AMHR horses at all...fear is no one will want AMHR because they want only ASPC/AMHR. If the majoirty don't want the ASPC/AMHR horses then this shouldn't be a concern at all. The majority want and will continue to want AMHR only--a small minority will want ASPC/AMHR. So, where is the problem?

Reference has been made to only a small number of ASPC/AMHR horses being shown, yet someone commented to me yesterday that the over division at Nationals this year was "all Shetlands"...sounded like the over classes were full of Shetlands. She wasn't complaining, even though she doesn't have Shetlands, it was simply an observation on her part.

I guess I just don't see how on one hand people can state that the majority of people don't want ASPC/AMHR and yet on the other had they are fussing because ASPC/AMHR is taking over AMHR. How can there be so many ASPC/AMHR horses taking over everything when so few people supposedly want them?

I think the truth is that there are a lot of people that do want them....not the majority of Mini owners overall perhaps, but the majority of show people and the majority of breeders that breed for the show ring....really the high profile people that the public hears the most about overall, those that are putting their horses out into public view with showing and advertising...those people DO want ASPC/AMHR. I'm not sure why those exhibitors and breeders should give up their wants for that "majority" who mostly are not even affected by the ASPC/AMHR horses. Just in the people I know personally there are a fair number who don't have ASPC/AMHR, don't care if they never have ASPC/AMHR and will never see their market affected by the ASPC/AMHR horses. That "majority" doesn't really care one way or the other about what happens with ASPC/AMHR horses and the measurement issues. Some, though, would like to use that majority to suit their own agendas.

Loved it! Awesome post!! I see this proposal as much agenda based as the A's and B's being dropped and as well as the China ponies escapade.

 

[Minimor]

This discussion is pointless, I know that. But...

Imagine the increase in ASPC classes locally as well as at Congress if they could only show ASPC

What makes you think people would show these double registered horses ASPC if they couldn't show them AMHR? A good low of those owners would ditch those horses or keep them and just not show them at all, they would haul other AMHR horses instead. Many of them bought them to be AMHR because that is what they want to show in.
And I still don't see how you figure that the ASPC/AMHR horse that comes from 10 generations of ASPC/AMHR horses are any less "MINIATURE" than the AMHR horses that came from 10 generations of AMHR-only horses?? Try looking at it this way. Supposing that those same 10 generations of horses had been bred exactly the same as they have been, with the only difference being that 10 generations back someone had thrown away ALL the ASPC papers, so that those horses were then AMHR only for all of these 10 generations. You would have the exact same horse you have now, only it would be AMHR only, not ASPC/AMHR. You would be okay with having those "Miniatures" in AMHR because now they would be Miniature and not Shetland? That is the part in this whole thing that really makes no sense. Why should a number of ASPC/AMHR horses now be penalized because way back when some breeders just happened to keep their ASPC papers on the horses that they registered AMHR?

 

[muffntuf]

There are so many contradictions in this. Lisa is saying no one wants them (ponies that are also AMHR registered), or at least the majority do not want them and there are so few being shown, and yet someone else said earlier on in this thread that they are changing the AMHR horses so much that Minis are no longer possible to tell apart from Shetlands. So, a big minority of people/breeders are having such an impact on the breed that they are changing (or have changed?) the entire breed into small Shetlands? Come on now, that doesn't even make sense.

Just to come back to my comments. This is based on observation from Congress. In the Foundation and Classic classes I competed against a lot of what seemed to me to be the double reg'd equine and they looked like miniatures to me, not shetland ponies. Since I competed, I did take notice. In one class it seemed my pony was the only Shetland looking pony in it, and that pony placed 4th. The first three placings were miniature looking - but ASPC/AMHR miniature/pony.

Oh and there was one miniature miniature, who is also registered as ASPC who competed, everyone towered over the animal as it was only 30" or something like that. But - to prove the point, that was a true miniature in my eyes, it did not look like a pony in any respect. And unfortunately the halter class I saw the miniature compete in, it was placed low in the placings.

 

[Devon]

What makes you think people would show these double registered horses ASPC if they couldn't show them AMHR? A good low of those owners would ditch those horses or keep them and just not show them at all, they would haul other AMHR horses instead. Many of them bought them to be AMHR because that is what they want to show in.

True if anyone really thinks pushing our aspc/amhr ponies out of amhr will somehow make ASPC as successful as AMHR it won't I love AMHR bought a horse that is mini height and a shetland; if I couldn't do that anymore I wouldnt show them at all my interest isn't in showing shetland besides the closest show is like 7 hours and out of country

So Id probably just not do anything with that stock and maybe start a whole new program or maybe not seems like a huge waste of my money thus far in my program...

 

[~Lisa~]

I am very open to being wrong I am very open to everyone embracing the ASPC in the mini ring and out and that this will only help the entire registry and the revenue thrive. I am not heck bent on my fears being right. I would love for it not to be I am just saying we need to consider the possiblity and the results it could have

 

[JWC sr.]

I guess I am just stupid or something, personally I would love to have nothing but multiple registered horses. ASPC/AMHR/AMHA/Pinto and whatever else I can come up with. It gives me more options for owners in order to find life jobs for my horses.

In my mind this is not as big a deal as some would have us believe. We as a registry were fine before all the Shetland versus mini stuff started and we will be fine after it has died down. Breeding for the best small equine you can produce cannot and is not a badthing in my book anyway. Breed what you like and enjoy! After all nobody is getting rich doing this stuff!

 

[Echo Acres]

Once again I have to admit I have not read this whole topic, but looks as though it has gotten slightly off subject as a shetland verses miniature debate.

Now back to the topic. I thought the measuring down at nationals was way off. For one thing one of the stewards doing the measuring was very rude and made many inappropraite comments. Some of which went against the rule book. I think as the show went on they got worse because no one wanted to get measured by them. For one thing they measured about an inch higher than the others. Also the spots they had to measure it were terrible. If you stood back you could clearly see the dips in the floor. We discovered that only one of the areas was somewhat flat so they could be measured accurately and insisted we use that one. The others it was obvious that the horse was standing higher than where the stick was being placed. I had a senior horse measure close to 35 inches. Tell me how a senior horse can grow 1 1/2 inches in 2 months time? He normally measures 33 1/2. A young horse I may believe, but not a senior horse. Also it was frustrating if you had to remeasure to try and find the right time where the right steward was available. I know those stewards work long hours there and I thank them for that. Could a few changes be made to make it better, sure.

 

[kaykay]

Of course not all perceptions are based in truth but often times truth doesnt seem to matter the perception takes precedent

I guess we can finally agree on something. Perceptions can be misleading. There are some that profess to love the American Shetland Pony and then blame them for everything wrong in the registry and bash them every chance they get.

Kay

 

[~Lisa~]

Thankfully we all have a chance to be part of the decision making process. I hope that a decision can be made that will allow AMHR members to feel heard and one that ASPC members will be happy with as well. I think we can all agree that without one..we would not have the other!

 

[LaVern]

No it did not change anything for me. And I guess I don't care anymore. It will Be as it will Be. It doesn't matter what it says our horses or any other breed of horses are supposed to look like, we as humans will try to change things and push the envelope. That is what we do.

If tall wins we will breed tall. If high steppers win we will breed high steppers. Whatever - and we have chosen to play the game.