Measurment proposal

[JMS Miniatures]

Ok I'm trying to figure this part out. Isn't the base of the withers what AMHA was trying to do but failed after several protests? Or am I thinking something totally different? Explain to me when they say measure miniatures at the base of withers? I know they are also trying to change it with the ponies going from the highest point of the withers to the base of the withers.

Either way the way it is written here does not want me to vote for it like I wanted it too.

 

[kaykay]

There are two separate measuring proposals and I hope neither passes.

The one at the base of the withers for ponies and minis says that anything registered before 2011 will still be measured at the last mane hair.

This failed miserably for AMHA and I think we should leave it alone until more is known. I wish they would have tried measuring some this way at Nationals because I think the impact would be much bigger than some think.

Theres a lot of odd ones in there but I do think it shows why so many dont pass because they are written so oddly.

Kay

 

[aBreeze]

As a big horse person just peeking into the mini world I am really having a hard time why people are fighting the withers concept?

There is a reason that the withers has been the standard among horsemen for hundreds of years, it is the one factor that wont change and is easy for the most green of horsemen to judge. Yes, it will push some horses over the edge, but that is why there is a grandfather clause. The mini horse organizations have been effectively lieing to themselves about the size of their horses... Why would the breed/showing organizations make something so easy to fudge in addition to the usual issues: cheating, abuse, drugging, etc?

As an outsider it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[~Lisa~]

The mini horse organizations have been effectively lieing to themselves about the size of their horses... Why would the breed/showing organizations make something so easy to fudge in addition to the usual issues: cheating, abuse, drugging, etc?

As an outsider it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Reble]

I am lucky my horses would not go over even it it was at withers etc.

But some peoples horses would go over and than what happens to their off spring would you buy to take a chance on them going over after 2011.

I would not buy, so this is one good reason to leave it alone.

Especially if your horse is sitting on 34.00" or 38.00"

It is like the foundation horses that they let it years ago. Do not see very many of them now.

 

[AshleyNicole]

I think that most people wouldn't mind and might even welcome the change to measuring at the wither but with an inch or two height increase to the breed. What is winning today at the shows are the taller horses so of course that's what many are breeding for. Even with the grandfathering clause many small breeders' farms will be ruined. I know many who support the rule with no height changes say to just change your program but it has taken most small farms years to build up their breeding programs and why should we change our breeding goals for the few?? Also what happens to the horses that are only AMHR registered that no one wants now because they will produce the taller horse or even dual registered horses that no longer fit into the breeders new goals? Many people have strong opinions for both sides as I'm sure you will see lol

 

[drivinghoss]

Since the beginning of the AMHR there has been questions about measurement. It was decided that measuring at the last hair of the mane would insure that a horse with better conformation was in the registry rather than measuring at the withers.

The reason miniature are not measured at the withers is because: Measuring at the withers for height rewards a poor conformation fault of a horse having low or "mutton withers". Any true horseman knows that low or "mutton withers" is not desirable in any breed or registry.

We need to leave measurement alone because we have a great system and we have pretty much wiped dwarfism out of AMHR. If we change the measurement to the withers we will bring a back dwarfism and mutton withers.

 

[stormy]

Leave measuring alone or go to the top of the withers w no height increase.

I am sure that some horses will measure out but can be grandfathered as AMHA did years ago and bred to smaller individuals for future offspring.

Base of withers! Pretty ridiculous but I am sure will have support from the Shetland world as many more would measure in.

 

[HGFarm]

I also agree- if a change is made, do it to the top of the withers like 'everybody else' does, and allow another inch for the difference. Anything else that happens to be over can be grandfathered in and left alone.

 

[AshleyNicole]

Since the beginning of the AMHR there has been questions about measurement. It was decided that measuring at the last hair of the mane would insure that a horse with better conformation was in the registry rather than measuring at the withers.

The reason miniature are not measured at the withers is because: Measuring at the withers for height rewards a poor conformation fault of a horse having low or "mutton withers". Any true horseman knows that low or "mutton withers" is not desirable in any breed or registry.

We need to leave measurement alone because we have a great system and we have pretty much wiped dwarfism out of AMHR. If we change the measurement to the withers we will bring a back dwarfism and mutton withers.

Thanks for posting this..... makes a lot of sense

 

[Songcatcher]

We need to leave measurement alone because we have a great system and we have pretty much wiped dwarfism out of AMHR. If we change the measurement to the withers we will bring a back dwarfism and mutton withers.

That does not make any sense at all to me. The point of measurement has no effect whatsoever on dwarfism.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Thats just it, it won't make the horses go measure taller in fact it may bring more in. Cause when we tried to measure at the base trying to find this imaginary notch we were able to get atleast 1" off that horse, this was back when AMHA was going to measure this way. I don't know just have to wait til Convention for them to dicuss this.

Kay where does it say they will be grandfathered in? I'm sure I missed it but all I saw was to change it to the base of the withers effective in 2011. Did not say about grandfathering in horses.

 

[sfmini]

The problem AMHA encountered was how to determine the base of withers. Many minis don't have well defined withers either, and yes, you can cheat using the highest point of the withers as a measurement. Had a pony that was trained to shrink down to make 14.2 and no, I didn't train her to do that.

 

[kuelinkellyville]

Thats just it, it won't make the horses go measure taller in fact it may bring more in. Cause when we tried to measure at the base trying to find this imaginary notch we were able to get atleast 1" off that horse, this was back when AMHA was going to measure this way. I don't know just have to wait til Convention for them to dicuss this.

Kay where does it say they will be grandfathered in? I'm sure I missed it but all I saw was to change it to the base of the withers effective in 2011. Did not say about grandfathering in horses.

Page 14 Sectin VI..

Danny

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I found it. Thanks!

 

[AshleyNicole]

That does not make any sense at all to me. The point of measurement has no effect whatsoever on dwarfism.

I think it would because you are encouraging breeders to breed for poor conformation and mutton withers. People will breed for that so that they can still have the taller horse that a lot of people want but with the mutton wither so it will still measure in. You are effectually encouraging people to breed poorly conformed horse .... many people will do this to get around the rule just like some people cheat now to measure in at shows....I think it will do much more damage to the breed to change it without the height being raised than most realize.

 

[R3]

I have been around horses, big and small, for nearly 50 years, and until AMHA brought it up, had NEVER heard of any specific, 'official' spot that was called the 'base of the withers' (BOTW). To me, BOTW has always been a general area, not a readily identifiable, pin-pointable spot. So, I am adamently oppose using this 'arbitrary' location as a new point of measurement. No one at AMHA could anatomically describe the exact point that designated the 'base'. I am still waiting for someone to tell me which vertebrae consitutes the 'base' ...

I whole-heartedly want to change to measuring at the 'top (highest point) of the withers' (TOTW), and for me, I would like to keep the height limits the same, and grandfather in any horse that were foaled prior to 2013 (or some other future date that would allow breeders to prepare for the change).

I don't believe that measuring at the TOTW would 'encourage' breeding for mutton withers. If it were true that the measuring location affected how people were breeding their horses, then I think you would be seeing people breed for manes that grew further down a horse's back and sacrificing 'quality' for the length of the mane. So, I think that saying measuring from the TOTW would result in people breeding for mutton withers is not a very good reason to reject using the TOTW as a measuring location.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I have been around horses, big and small, for nearly 50 years, and until AMHA brought it up, had NEVER heard of any specific, 'official' spot that was called the 'base of the withers' (BOTW). To me, BOTW has always been a general area, not a readily identifiable, pin-pointable spot. So, I am adamently oppose using this 'arbitrary' location as a new point of measurement. No one at AMHA could anatomically describe the exact point that designated the 'base'. I am still waiting for someone to tell me which vertebrae consitutes the 'base' ...

I whole-heartedly want to change to measuring at the 'top (highest point) of the withers' (TOTW), and for me, I would like to keep the height limits the same, and grandfather in any horse that were foaled prior to 2013 (or some other future date that would allow breeders to prepare for the change).

I don't believe that measuring at the TOTW would 'encourage' breeding for mutton withers. If it were true that the measuring location affected how people were breeding their horses, then I think you would be seeing people breed for manes that grew further down a horse's back and sacrificing 'quality' for the length of the mane. So, I think that saying measuring from the TOTW would result in people breeding for mutton withers is not a very good reason to reject using the TOTW as a measuring location.

Agree

I would not like to see the heights raised either, and I also think 2011 is rushing it. I may possibly turn it down because of that. Atleast give it til 2012. I also may like to see if horses do go over with this new rule to still allow breeding papers, you just won't beable to show them.

I also think if people is going to sacrifice conformation just to beable to get their horse smaller they are just hurting themselves.

 

[sedeh]

I can't believe they're trying to get that "base of withers" measurement passed again. It caused so much drama last year when they tried. I wish they'd measure top of the withers like every other horse breed and be done with it.

 

[Songcatcher]

Songcatcher, on 30 September 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

That does not make any sense at all to me. The point of measurement has no effect whatsoever on dwarfism.

I think it would because you are encouraging breeders to breed for poor conformation and mutton withers. People will breed for that so that they can still have the taller horse that a lot of people want but with the mutton wither so it will still measure in. You are effectually encouraging people to breed poorly conformed horse .... many people will do this to get around the rule just like some people cheat now to measure in at shows....I think it will do much more damage to the breed to change it without the height being raised than most realize.

There is a BIG difference in poor conformation and dwarfism.