Measurment proposal

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We need to leave measurement alone because we have a great system and we have pretty much wiped dwarfism out of AMHR. If we change the measurement to the withers we will bring a back dwarfism and mutton withers.
Well, let's see.

The system is not great. Dwarfism has not been wiped out - the only way to do that is to discover and the eliminate the genes that are responsible.. And mutton withers exist even in big horse breeds where they have always measured at the withers.

Can you clarify why measuring an animal at some other point will suddenly change its conformation for the worst?
I would like some clarification on this as well - as it makes no sense whatsoever... the conformation good or bad will be still be there - no matter where you decide to measure. And I have seen MANY muttonwithered QHs...

We can not allow the ulterior motives of a few individuals change a registry that has been successful for 40 years.
I dislike statements like that ^ - what "ulterior motives of a few members" are you even hinting at? Say what you mean instead of dropping little hints and insinuations... and suggesting conspiracies and hidden agendas...

Well, thank you for that broad sweeping generalization that taller horses are automatically better conformed and that smaller horses are automatically poor conformation.
Songcatcher - surely you cannot fail to see that a 31" Grand Champion must inherently be inferior to a not as well built 36" horse who gets the gate?
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drivinghoss - not all smaller horses are dwarfs with mutton withers as you seem to be suggesting...
 
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Can you clarify why measuring an animal at some other point will suddenly change its conformation for the worst?

What "ulterior motives" are you insinuating? I think a lot of people want more consistent measuring, and withers provide a solid landmark for a measuring point, whereas hair is not quite as unyielding of a spot.

Your statement is not clarified by the addition of other breed standards.

Andrea

Many people will breed for a low withered horse istead of a horse that is high withered good conformation horse.

Since you come from a pony background you would know that a nice prominent set of withers helps a horse to be able to move very well.

Some who own Minis here on the East coast dont like the refined, high withered good conformationed horse that is winning over low withered heavier horses.

The ulterior motive is that some want "old style" Minis to have an edge over the Shetland looking mini.

Every show I have been to the measuring has been consistent. i think our stewards do a good job.

And Andrea , the other breed standards clearly state that a prominent withers is desireable. Changing the standard of AMHR would make prominent undesireable.
 
Well defined withers are always desireable. Knife-edged, overly prominent withers are not. That is the opposite extreme of mutton withers. And as I said mutton withers exist in many other breeds - despite what the standard may call for.

Many people will breed for a low withered horse istead of a horse that is high withered good conformation horse.
No, they will breed for the best conformation possible, which does not include mutton withers.

Good conformation depends upon the individual horse, not the fact that he is 32" or 38"...
 
I guess I am confused.. high withers does not equal good conformation and a poorly conformed horse is not going to win anyone anything so why would someone breed for them?
 
I guess I need to clarify my opinon.

The quality of the miniature horse has improved greatly in the past ten years. I dont think we should change the standard for registration.

I put the breed standards on here to show that other breeds find prominent withers desireable.

I did not mean to disparage any small animal... I own several under horses who are better conformationally than some taller animal

And in the AMHR, all things being equal the nod goes to the smaller horse.

I just dont believe we should change what the founding fathers (and mothers) of AMHR put in place.

I am sorry if I offended anyone
 
I had this in my reply on page 2, but am reapeating it here too...

..."I don't believe that measuring at the Top of the Withers (TOTW) would 'encourage' breeding for mutton withers. If it were true that the measuring location affected how people were breeding their horses, then I think you would be seeing people breed for manes that grew further down a horse's back and sacrificing 'quality' for the length of the mane. So, I think that saying measuring from the TOTW would result in people breeding for mutton withers is not a very good reason to reject using the TOTW as a measuring location."
 
All of my minis have defined withers. I have seen only one mini that does not and he is a good western mover. I don't think anyone would set out to intentially breed minis with no withers, they are just hurting themselves more then hurting the breed. IMO AMHR does not go towards the smallest horse, thats not the way it should be but IMO thats what you see.
 
May I point out that there is nothing at all in that rule proposal about grandfathering in the OFFSPRING of the currently registered horses. The only grandfathering clause I see is in regard to those horses already registered prior to the date the rule change takes effect. So, if the rule goes into effect 1-1-1011 then the 2011 foals will be eligible for registration only if they do not finish up over the 38” at the top of the withers. They may very well finish up at 38” or less at the last mane hair, but not at the top of the withers….so that is why it makes a difference to have the rule start 1-1-2012 or 1-1-2013…to let the 2011 foals be registered the old way.

Will people purposefully breed for low withers? I can't say for sure--but I do think that there are a good many Mini owners and breeders who don't have a clue that well defined withers are a good thing, and so simply don't pay any attention to what kind of withers their horses have. And there must be some out there that don't care for high withers, because they don't seem to care for the improved action/way of moving that comes along with the kind of conformation that has good withers, a laid back shoulder, etc etc. If they don't want the bigger moving horses then they are likely to be breeding for lower withered horses....and I suspect there are plenty that, if they had to choose between two horses that were much the same size at the top of the wither, would choose the lower withered horse over the horse with the well defined withers.

Now, I am not saying that is any reason to not change the measurement spot to the top of the wither. The reason I say not to change to the top of the wither is that this proposal does not include any increase in height to allow for a good wither. And IMO passing this rule as it is would be taking a step back in overall quality. Why? Because those people breeding taller horses will be in luck if their taller foals finish up at 38" at the top of the wither, out of luck if the foal finishes up over 38" at the top of the wither. A horse with low withers will be more likely to have little difference between the last mane hair and the top of the wither. The horses with higher withers will likely have more difference between those two points. So....this means that if you raise taller horses, all of which finish up at 37-38" at the last mane hair....those foals that have high withers are likely to be 39" or a little more at the top of the wither. They will be out. Those with lower withers will be in. Since better withers as a rule go along with the shoulder that has a better angle--and of course not always, I've seen some butt-ugly high withered horses too!!--and better withers are associated with better movement....by eliminating one you are quite possibly eliminating the other. The hidden agenda....that really isn't so well hidden at all....is eliminate some of the taller and/or better moving horses.

I also maintain that delaying this rule to 2012 or 2013 is of little benefit otherwise. Overall it is not going to help those breeders that have the taller horses in their program. Sure, they can register their 2011 foals, but what are they supposed to do with that taller breeding stock then. Chances are slim that 10 or 12 year old broodmares are going to go back out into the showring…certainly they won’t be marketable as show horses! There will be no market for them as breeding animals. How many people are going to buy 37” or 38” mares or stallions for breeding? I would guess not very many. I have gotten 37.5 and 38” foals off 36” mares bred to 30.5 & 32” stallions…and yes, those same mares have given me 36” foals when bred to a 37” stallion, so you just don’t know—but I can say for sure that if I were wanting to breed AMHR Minis and the height limit is 38” at the top of the wither, I sure wouldn’t be buying broodmares that are 37.5 or 38” at the last mane hair! I suspect that there are many that would agree with me on that choice. Perhaps a few would take the chance, but “a few” doesn’t make much of a market for all the taller horses in AMHR.

I know those in favor of this rule change don’t want to see that, and those people will say that it’s not really true that this rule change would ruin a number of breeding programs the moment it is passed, but it is true. It’s easy to say just make a few adjustments & all is good, but that is easier said than done in many cases. It’s easy enough to do if you have plenty of money and can afford to keep those taller horses that are undesirable for breeding or if you really don’t care what becomes of them & can just dump them somewhere for next to nothing and then go out and buy new breeding stock. Many people, though, don’t have that kind of money—unless they can sell some horses they cannot afford to buy new ones and unless they sell some horses they don’t have room for new ones and if the horses they have to sell are not marketable they don’t want to just dump them for whatever they can get at some sale.
 
May I point out that there is nothing at all in that rule proposal about grandfathering in the OFFSPRING of the currently registered horses. The only grandfathering clause I see is in regard to those horses already registered prior to the date the rule change takes effect. So, if the rule goes into effect 1-1-1011 then the 2011 foals will be eligible for registration only if they do not finish up over the 38" at the top of the withers. They may very well finish up at 38" or less at the last mane hair, but not at the top of the withers….so that is why it makes a difference to have the rule start 1-1-2012 or 1-1-2013…to let the 2011 foals be registered the old way.

Will people purposefully breed for low withers? I can't say for sure--but I do think that there are a good many Mini owners and breeders who don't have a clue that well defined withers are a good thing, and so simply don't pay any attention to what kind of withers their horses have. And there must be some out there that don't care for high withers, because they don't seem to care for the improved action/way of moving that comes along with the kind of conformation that has good withers, a laid back shoulder, etc etc. If they don't want the bigger moving horses then they are likely to be breeding for lower withered horses....and I suspect there are plenty that, if they had to choose between two horses that were much the same size at the top of the wither, would choose the lower withered horse over the horse with the well defined withers.

Now, I am not saying that is any reason to not change the measurement spot to the top of the wither. The reason I say not to change to the top of the wither is that this proposal does not include any increase in height to allow for a good wither. And IMO passing this rule as it is would be taking a step back in overall quality. Why? Because those people breeding taller horses will be in luck if their taller foals finish up at 38" at the top of the wither, out of luck if the foal finishes up over 38" at the top of the wither. A horse with low withers will be more likely to have little difference between the last mane hair and the top of the wither. The horses with higher withers will likely have more difference between those two points. So....this means that if you raise taller horses, all of which finish up at 37-38" at the last mane hair....those foals that have high withers are likely to be 39" or a little more at the top of the wither. They will be out. Those with lower withers will be in. Since better withers as a rule go along with the shoulder that has a better angle--and of course not always, I've seen some butt-ugly high withered horses too!!--and better withers are associated with better movement....by eliminating one you are quite possibly eliminating the other. The hidden agenda....that really isn't so well hidden at all....is eliminate some of the taller and/or better moving horses.

I also maintain that delaying this rule to 2012 or 2013 is of little benefit otherwise. Overall it is not going to help those breeders that have the taller horses in their program. Sure, they can register their 2011 foals, but what are they supposed to do with that taller breeding stock then. Chances are slim that 10 or 12 year old broodmares are going to go back out into the showring…certainly they won't be marketable as show horses! There will be no market for them as breeding animals. How many people are going to buy 37" or 38" mares or stallions for breeding? I would guess not very many. I have gotten 37.5 and 38" foals off 36" mares bred to 30.5 & 32" stallions…and yes, those same mares have given me 36" foals when bred to a 37" stallion, so you just don't know—but I can say for sure that if I were wanting to breed AMHR Minis and the height limit is 38" at the top of the wither, I sure wouldn't be buying broodmares that are 37.5 or 38" at the last mane hair! I suspect that there are many that would agree with me on that choice. Perhaps a few would take the chance, but "a few" doesn't make much of a market for all the taller horses in AMHR.

I know those in favor of this rule change don't want to see that, and those people will say that it's not really true that this rule change would ruin a number of breeding programs the moment it is passed, but it is true. It's easy to say just make a few adjustments & all is good, but that is easier said than done in many cases. It's easy enough to do if you have plenty of money and can afford to keep those taller horses that are undesirable for breeding or if you really don't care what becomes of them & can just dump them somewhere for next to nothing and then go out and buy new breeding stock. Many people, though, don't have that kind of money—unless they can sell some horses they cannot afford to buy new ones and unless they sell some horses they don't have room for new ones and if the horses they have to sell are not marketable they don't want to just dump them for whatever they can get at some sale.
Thank you... I do not have your way with words but that is exactly what I have been wanting to say and I think couldn't get across. The more I think about it ( and I am trying to look at both sides really I am ) the more I am convinced that this simply will not work. It will not only ruin many small breeders for reasons you have stated(which I have said before is the backbone of AMHR) it may even hurt the registry. What people need to realize is that it is these small breeders who pay the fees etc. I see it as bad business especially if it is to take effect so quickly without needed research and no increase in the heights. I am sure that a lot of people who this will effect had no idea about it...which is why I wish on issues like this there was a way that all members could be heard. Whatever the case we have registered for the convention and have taken days off.......it's too important not to and we are lucky enough to live 20 min away,
 
I see both sides of why this proposal can be a good and a bad thing. I also feel its being rushed, which is why I don't think it will pass.

However, doesn't mean it won't be brought up again in the future. So how does everyone feel about breeding papers to those horses that have gone over 38" at the highest point of the withers that were born after this rule has been taken to affect? They can still be AMHR registered but only breeding papers, they would not be eligible to show. Their foals will be eligible to be registered into AMHR but with a significant higher fee. I think that would be the only fair way to do this.
 
I see both sides of why this proposal can be a good and a bad thing. I also feel its being rushed, which is why I don't think it will pass.

However, doesn't mean it won't be brought up again in the future. So how does everyone feel about breeding papers to those horses that have gone over 38" at the highest point of the withers that were born after this rule has been taken to affect? They can still be AMHR registered but only breeding papers, they would not be eligible to show. Their foals will be eligible to be registered into AMHR but with a significant higher fee. I think that would be the only fair way to do this.


You had me until I read "their foals will be eligible to be registered into AMHR but with a significantly higher fee." Why? That would make it difficult for the smaller breeders (larger breeders too, really) and it would also make those horses with just breeding papers far less valuable still.

I really agree with what Minimor said. Extremely well-stated.
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You had me until I read "their foals will be eligible to be registered into AMHR but with a significantly higher fee." Why? That would make it difficult for the smaller breeders (larger breeders too, really) and it would also make those horses with just breeding papers far less valuable still.

I really agree with what Minimor said. Extremely well-stated.
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You have to give an incentive for buyers to buy show and breeding stock. It would still allow for the bigger minis in but it gives an incentive to breed smaller.
 
I see both sides of why this proposal can be a good and a bad thing. I also feel its being rushed, which is why I don't think it will pass.

However, doesn't mean it won't be brought up again in the future. So how does everyone feel about breeding papers to those horses that have gone over 38" at the highest point of the withers that were born after this rule has been taken to affect? They can still be AMHR registered but only breeding papers, they would not be eligible to show. Their foals will be eligible to be registered into AMHR but with a significant higher fee. I think that would be the only fair way to do this.
What's fair about that statement? Who wants breeding stock that is too tall to show and has a 50% or greater chance of foaling "over" the limit foals? Then you want them - if they happen to want to register these "unshowable" horses- to pay a higher fee?

Think about it -- times are tough and you just offered to make them tougher!
 
I agree with Magic; I was with you until the 'higher fee' part came up.

I think that the 'incentive' to breed for smaller would be in the fact that the smaller ones would be able to be shown while the taller ones could not.

Of course I am also of the opinion that even now any foal born to two AMHR registered parents should be able to keep its papers if it goes over 38"--such a horse would not be eligible to show, but it wouldn't lose it's papers.

With eligibility to being an incentive to stay within size I don't think higher fees are necessary.
 
So the hidden agenda thing is bothering me quite a bit, I am one of those straight mini supporters who is suffering greatly from the influx of Shetland blood, 20 yrs of selecting for the best miniatures possible and now am being told by many they have no worth to the registry because they do not have ASPC type conformation and movement. That hurts.

So breeding programs are impacted by all kinds of changes. There are also plenty of good moving horses under 36" 37".

That said once again my preference is to NOT change the standard of measure from what it is now. If we do go to top of the withers DO NOT change the height standards, why? Because many are selling internationally and there the withers height standards are at the heights the US uses for last hair of the mane. No hidden agenda. Just thinking how nice it would be to have an internationally recognized height standard. Never would I go for bottom of withers though if this were to pass should be with a height reduction to again standardize so horses sold internationally measuring at the bottom of the withers at 32" (new standard for A size) would measure closer to 34" at the top of the withers internationally. (Don't think over horses are seen much ouside of the US yet but could be wrong...difference would be greater in the taller height division)

So is there a hidden agenda behind the bottom of the withers measure then?? Would bring in many more Shetlands that would be way over 38" at the last hair of the mane or top of withers...in fact at top of withers would be as much as 4" differant so 38" at base of withers would put 42" horses in the over class!!

I must add too that I would be STRONGLY against any change in location of measurement that did not include at minimum a three year grandfathering claus so breeders would have time to adjust programs.
 
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No height adjustment for top of the withers measuring, but make a height adjustment for base of the withers measuring--it is perfectly obvious that the only goal is to keep out as many of the ponies as possible. I don't think that the European market is any reason to not adjust height if top of the withers is used for the official measurement point. Even if AMHR uses a height limit of 36" for unders and 40" for overs, European buyers can just select horses that measure under whatever height they want. There are complaints from European buyers now that when they buy horses that measure 33" at the top of the withers the horse proves to be taller when it arrives in Europe. I have to point out that changing the official measurement point to the top of the withers isn't going to benefit Europeans at all. If there are people who cannot properly measure to the top of the withers now, I don't see how changing the official measurement point is going to make those people measure any more accurately. Regardless if AMHR has a height limit of 36" or 34" for the unders, if someone is measuring a 35" horse as 33" now, they are going to measure that 35" horse as 33" later too.
 
Well I still think there should be a slight registration increase for foals out of breeding papered stock, if anything just double the registration fees. But what do I know. I would be all for it if we could measure to the wither, allow horses keep their papers by breeding papers only, and still allow their foals to be registered, even at regular price. What I am against is raising our heights. That would be the determining factor for me.

Mominis no one is exactly sure where the base of the withers is. AMHA tried to get this passed a couple of years ago and it was passed by the few people that were there at their Convention. But no body could find this imaginary knot in the vertebrae that they were talking about so with protests it never happened. My friend thought she found it and measured and we atleast got a 1" smaller on everybody. So measuring at the base would bring taller horses into AMHR. Which is not what I want. Especially if our stewards can't determine where the last hair of the actual mane is I'm sure they would have even much more of a harder time to find the base of the withers.
 
Minimor I am sorry you feel that way but influx of shetland blood will not stop or decrease as long as hardshipping is open. Changing height standards to max 38" at the top of the withers will have no impact on that whatsoever. There are plenty of shetlands that will measure under 38" at the withers, there are plenty of straight minis that would not measure under 38" at the withers including about half a dozen here on my farm.

One standard over all is what I would like to see, US, EU, AMHA, AMHR...or leave it alone.
 
Let me ask everyone this..... would anyone be opposed to the new rule if they also increased the maximum height from 38" to 40"??? We all know that our 37" minis would now measure 38" (or higher). I would think the person that proposed this new rule would also know that (although I do not know who proposed it), so ask yourself why he/she didn't also propose for a height change too!!!!!I show shetlands too and they are measured at the withers. I have two PERMANENT measurement cards on one of mine, one is 44.5" and the other is 45". So even measuring at the withers is not consistant, and with this new rule change, 1/2" will make a HUGE difference!

Now this new rule would not affect my minis one bit, but I still am HIGHLY opposed to it!!!! It will get a vote of "no" from me.
 

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