Miniature Horse dwarfism - Test Now Available!
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I'm curious. Say I have a mare who tests as a full blown dwarf and send in her test results because she IS registered, will they strip the papers? How would that affect offspring that are registered or are going to be, if they are not dwarves but are carriers?
(Just thinking here)
Do you have a link to that post? I couldn't find it?
horsehug
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Tremor, I don't think I'm supposed to put a link to FB on here but if you go to FB and type in
ASPC/AMHR/ASPR in the search bar you will get the page that Lewella posted it in. Just scroll down til you see her post, not very far down.
Susan O.
ASPC/AMHR/ASPR in the search bar you will get the page that Lewella posted it in. Just scroll down til you see her post, not very far down.
Susan O.
Reignmaker Miniatures
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I'm in the 'no longer breed' group but I think this is very good news. How wonderful to be able to tell ahead of time what you are dealing with and what the risks are! Thank you to those who have spent so many long hours deciphering this genetic puzzle and making this test available.
Lewella
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The ASPC/AMHR Board of Directors voted at Convention in November that once available, members would be able to record Dwarf test results on their horse's registration papers. Having the results recorded will incur a registration paper update fee just like adding color test results (which AMHR will also do).
Tremor - the ASPC/AMHR Board of Directors has not yet addressed the possible issues with test results that indicated the horse that was tested was itself a dwarf.
Tremor - the ASPC/AMHR Board of Directors has not yet addressed the possible issues with test results that indicated the horse that was tested was itself a dwarf.
Maple Hollow Farm
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This is great news. Just will take me a while to be able to afford to test all of our horses at that price. I am unemployed so dont have tons of extra cash laying around LOL! I would assume AMHA would have no problem with adding the testing results to the papers since they already allow the color testing results to be added. Would be interesting to call and ask and find out
JMS Miniatures
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I don't see how the registries can take away registration papers to those who tested positive. Possibly if they make it into effect on future registrations where they make every foal tested before registration and you have to test negative for all panels then yes I can see them deny registration. But I think the registries will loose money on registrations that way.
It's important unfortunately it's going to be costly but who know how widespread these horses will test positive for the dwarf gene.
It's important unfortunately it's going to be costly but who know how widespread these horses will test positive for the dwarf gene.
stormy
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So some food for thought.....the test is here, costly so can't run out and test everyone all at once but here are some random thoughts
Most of the conversation here is about eliminating carriers.....not just testing to assure positive is not bred to positive as in LWO for instance.....what is the feeling about this.....
remove everything carrying any of the 4 identified mutations?
test and breed with full knowledge to eliminate the chance of producing a dwarf but not selecting against carriers? (as is currently be done with LWO)
test all stallions and use only negative stallions and breed out the mutations over time?
If elimination is the answer what becomes of the non-expressing carriers?
and of course we really won't know for a while how prevalent these mutations are so at this point is just discussion but I think worth some serious thought.
Most of the conversation here is about eliminating carriers.....not just testing to assure positive is not bred to positive as in LWO for instance.....what is the feeling about this.....
remove everything carrying any of the 4 identified mutations?
test and breed with full knowledge to eliminate the chance of producing a dwarf but not selecting against carriers? (as is currently be done with LWO)
test all stallions and use only negative stallions and breed out the mutations over time?
If elimination is the answer what becomes of the non-expressing carriers?
and of course we really won't know for a while how prevalent these mutations are so at this point is just discussion but I think worth some serious thought.
susanne
dB
We have a performance-only registry, and many AMHR, ASPC, AMHA and other show horses are never bred. Geldings do just great and often show for a longer time since they are not retired to the breeding shed.
There are so many things a horse can do other than breed, and this is equally true with non-expressing dwarf carriers. Consider the youth who will benefit from showing an experienced show horse. Perhaps we will see horses older than three years in the senior classes? And then there is CDE, ADS shows, and recreational driving...
I believe that to continue breeding carriers (albeit to non-carriers) is to simply kick the can down the road. The recessive gene will survive and put future generations at risk. Breeders of integrity will test their stock and avoid breeding two positive horses, but we all know there are too many irresponsible or ignorant breeders who will allow dwarfism to continue.
There are so many things a horse can do other than breed, and this is equally true with non-expressing dwarf carriers. Consider the youth who will benefit from showing an experienced show horse. Perhaps we will see horses older than three years in the senior classes? And then there is CDE, ADS shows, and recreational driving...
I believe that to continue breeding carriers (albeit to non-carriers) is to simply kick the can down the road. The recessive gene will survive and put future generations at risk. Breeders of integrity will test their stock and avoid breeding two positive horses, but we all know there are too many irresponsible or ignorant breeders who will allow dwarfism to continue.
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little lady
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This is fantastic! After all the hard work to see this come to fruition. I was able to attend a Little King Farm seminar and hear first hand John's valuable information. Hoping the miniature horse can make great strides forward with this.
targetsmom
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This discussion is now getting to the nitty-gritty of the dwarfism issues. This is likely the reason that the letters I wrote to MHW (which didn't publish it) and the Journal (which did but did not seem to get any reaction) got the reactions they did (or didn't!) get. It would have been nice to see some of this type of discussion in the breed magazines. I think it is hard to make decisions without knowing how many horses will test positive for one of the dwarf genes, but I believe John Eberth estimates it may be 25-40%. One perhaps unintended consequence of the recent re-infusion of ASPC blood into minis will be the reduction in those numbers.
I have hair samples from one mare on the way to be tested, but since I am no longer breeding, it really doesn't matter to me how she tests. I have absolutely no reason to think she will be positive for any of the 4 genes, but we will see. She is for sale, and my plan is to post the test results in the ads. I want to set an example. I would like to see dwarfism treated like LWO, which I am quite familiar with. As long as horses that are carriers of the gene suffer no consequences (until they are crossed with another carrier) I see no reason to eliminate them from the gene pool (like LWO). Dwarfism is more complex because 4 genes are involved, but (as I understand it) as long as you don't cross certain genes, you will be OK. Certainly if you cross a horse negative for all 4 genes with one positive for one or more you will not get a dwarf, but maybe another carrier. But dwarfism is also different from LWO in that some of the combinations produce early abortions and NOT LIVE DWARFS. Like those mares that "slip a foal" or are hard to get in foal. From John's thesis, it looks like about half the gene combinations that produce "dwarfs" don't produce live dwarfs, but an early fetal loss. How many breeders have had one of those? We had one several years ago where the mare was U/S as pregnant but never foaled. Was she a carrier? I have no idea and we no longer own her. Most breeder probably just breed the mare again, and don't even think about the fact it might have been a dwarf.
I see the testing as making it much easier to figure out which horses to cross safely with no chance of producing a live dwarf. And that breeders may not all use the information the same way - some might risk a slipped foal if a live dwarf is not possible from the gene combinations. Some breeders already know which stallions and mares are carriers so maybe they feel they don't need to test. But I think having information on which genes are involved will be useful to breeders who understand the genetics.
I have hair samples from one mare on the way to be tested, but since I am no longer breeding, it really doesn't matter to me how she tests. I have absolutely no reason to think she will be positive for any of the 4 genes, but we will see. She is for sale, and my plan is to post the test results in the ads. I want to set an example. I would like to see dwarfism treated like LWO, which I am quite familiar with. As long as horses that are carriers of the gene suffer no consequences (until they are crossed with another carrier) I see no reason to eliminate them from the gene pool (like LWO). Dwarfism is more complex because 4 genes are involved, but (as I understand it) as long as you don't cross certain genes, you will be OK. Certainly if you cross a horse negative for all 4 genes with one positive for one or more you will not get a dwarf, but maybe another carrier. But dwarfism is also different from LWO in that some of the combinations produce early abortions and NOT LIVE DWARFS. Like those mares that "slip a foal" or are hard to get in foal. From John's thesis, it looks like about half the gene combinations that produce "dwarfs" don't produce live dwarfs, but an early fetal loss. How many breeders have had one of those? We had one several years ago where the mare was U/S as pregnant but never foaled. Was she a carrier? I have no idea and we no longer own her. Most breeder probably just breed the mare again, and don't even think about the fact it might have been a dwarf.
I see the testing as making it much easier to figure out which horses to cross safely with no chance of producing a live dwarf. And that breeders may not all use the information the same way - some might risk a slipped foal if a live dwarf is not possible from the gene combinations. Some breeders already know which stallions and mares are carriers so maybe they feel they don't need to test. But I think having information on which genes are involved will be useful to breeders who understand the genetics.
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BSharpRanch
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Okay, let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. We all know what a responsible breeder will/should do. However, we all know that there are a few who love money more then horses and may/will be testing their horses for the genes and breeding + to + to increase their chances of getting the dwarf that will bring big bucks. So it is possible that with the great intentions of minimizing dwarfism, some may be using this test for the wrong reasons. Food for thought.
Then we can only hope that they misinterprete the results and they end up carrying D1 carriers to each other.
A dead foal is better than a suffering foal.
wingnut
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This is great news! I'm not a breeder nor am I in the market for a horse. I do, however, take every opportunity to educate people about miniature horses. One of the things I stress is the issue of dwarfism. I can now tell people who may be interested in purchasing a mini that they are best served by finding a line that's been tested and found to be negative.
horsehug
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I have a question for any and all who would like to give your thoughts on it.
If you test and find some of your horses are carriers, but very nice correct examples of miniature horses.......... what do you plan to do with your carriers.......?
Keep them for showing or pets or therapy or some other purpose, but not breed them?
Sell them Honestly as carriers, but possibly at even lower prices than the market has fallen to in recent years?
Find them good adoptive homes as loved pets?
Continue to breed them knowing if you breed them to non carriers, you will never produce a dwarf and only have a 50% chance of producing another carrier, and realizing they have good characteristics to add to the gene pool, and will still be gradually weeding this gene out as time goes by?
Other options?
It will be interesting to finally find just how prevalent this is if enough people step forward and test their horses. In my 26 years in the miniature world I have known of many NICE minis that are carriers, some for sure nicer than some non carriers! And I just tend to wonder what will become of them.
Thanks!
Susan O.
If you test and find some of your horses are carriers, but very nice correct examples of miniature horses.......... what do you plan to do with your carriers.......?
Keep them for showing or pets or therapy or some other purpose, but not breed them?
Sell them Honestly as carriers, but possibly at even lower prices than the market has fallen to in recent years?
Find them good adoptive homes as loved pets?
Continue to breed them knowing if you breed them to non carriers, you will never produce a dwarf and only have a 50% chance of producing another carrier, and realizing they have good characteristics to add to the gene pool, and will still be gradually weeding this gene out as time goes by?
Other options?
It will be interesting to finally find just how prevalent this is if enough people step forward and test their horses. In my 26 years in the miniature world I have known of many NICE minis that are carriers, some for sure nicer than some non carriers! And I just tend to wonder what will become of them.
Thanks!
Susan O.
BSharpRanch
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I have another question as for some reason the past links to the initial information on the research only pulled up a blank page for me. Will these test test for the hot dog type dwarves? The type that resemble a normal mini on very short legs?
targetsmom
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The tests do not test for the "hot dog" type dwarfs with short legs in relation to body.
I will tell you what I plan to do with the test results on my mare - no matter what they are. I plan to add the test information to the ad, and tell anyone who expresses interest in her what they are. I figure that ANY information about dwarf genes is better than no information and you have to start somewhere. I am only selling her as a broodmare because I feel for this mare - a daughter of Cross Countrys Call Me Sir with a stellar production record - that is her chief calling in life. I do not plan to change the price. (I hope the moderator does not consider this an ad because I think the info needs to be in here to make my point about the dwarfism testing). So yes, if she turns out to be a carrier, I will still offer her as a broodmare pointing out that any OTHER mare on the market could ALSO be a carrier but this way you at least know which gene the mare carries and can select a stallion accordingly to avoid a dwarf foal.
Now, all our OTHER mares are being used for 4-H and our stallions have all been gelded and will also be used for 4-H and therapy work. Our youngsters and our all-around show mare Princess will be hitting the show ring in A, R, and local shows and (as appropriate) ADS events. I do not see any need to have them tested.
I will tell you what I plan to do with the test results on my mare - no matter what they are. I plan to add the test information to the ad, and tell anyone who expresses interest in her what they are. I figure that ANY information about dwarf genes is better than no information and you have to start somewhere. I am only selling her as a broodmare because I feel for this mare - a daughter of Cross Countrys Call Me Sir with a stellar production record - that is her chief calling in life. I do not plan to change the price. (I hope the moderator does not consider this an ad because I think the info needs to be in here to make my point about the dwarfism testing). So yes, if she turns out to be a carrier, I will still offer her as a broodmare pointing out that any OTHER mare on the market could ALSO be a carrier but this way you at least know which gene the mare carries and can select a stallion accordingly to avoid a dwarf foal.
Now, all our OTHER mares are being used for 4-H and our stallions have all been gelded and will also be used for 4-H and therapy work. Our youngsters and our all-around show mare Princess will be hitting the show ring in A, R, and local shows and (as appropriate) ADS events. I do not see any need to have them tested.
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