Miniature Horse dwarfism - Test Now Available!

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I got some good news today from Dr. Graves at the U of KY. She said they have been swamped with people sending in samples to be tested. I'm so glad lots of people are taking advantage of this test and having their minis tested.

Susan O.
 
That is awesome to hear. I thought the test being available would have gone viral, but I see almost no one talking about it. While it has only been 10 days I am waiting for results to see where we go with breeding.
 
Scottishlass, I was surprised at first also that almost no one is talking about it. But I think maybe it makes lots of people nervous, to find out, since we have been told the % can be high for carriers. But even if they are not talking I was excited to hear that lots are testing
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Susan O.
 
I am in The Netherlands and have send in samples of my two, 2yr old colts last week.
I want to know before I even start breeding with them, as I feel when a stallion carries it, no one would want a foal from him anyway, so he should be gelded.

I agree this test is gonna bring some changes in the mini world!
And YES it will cost money, carriers wil absolutely be lowered in price, but the free ones will go up in price!
And any good breeder would want to make the breed better and stronger.

I am now doing my two young colts, and will do my mares later on, need to save some money for that too.
Will I stop breeding my mares if they test positive? Good question, first of all a few of my mares are what I feel just awesome, and awesome producers, so if they do test positive I would be gutted...
For now I think I will geld the stallions for sure, stallions (can) produce much more offspring then mares, so that would be my opinion.
For my mares, I think I will continiue at first, testing all the offspring and again gelding the positive colts.
We will just have to see how many horses are really gonna test positive, and yes I am gonna be honest about it too.

But let's be honest now that the test is here... I would not buy, or breed with, a horse that is not tested anymore!
And I think the rest will follow.B
Lets be real if you want to make sales in the future you are just gonna have too.
It would be great if testing could be together wil PQ-ing for example?
 
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And YES it will cost money, carriers wil absolutely be lowered in price, but the free ones will go up in price!
I definitely agree that having the test WILL change things, and not everyone will make the same decisions about the test. And gelding stallions is rarely a bad idea. I agree that those minis free of all 4 ACAN genes should go UP in price, but I don't agree that carriers will be lowered in price. How can knowing WHICH of the genes they carry make them worth LESS than not knowing which ones they carry?

This is what always bothered me about people gelding a stallion as soon as it had a dwarf foal. Before the test was available, how could you possibly know that the stallion you replaced him with was not going to produce another dwarf foal for you? Now, with the test, you can at least make sure of the status of any replacement.

Have any of you really thought through what you will do if your stallion or mare tests positive for D1 but not D2-D4? Or tests positive only for D2-D4, but not D1?
 
Linda (Meavey) my sentiments exactly! I hope to see others follow this game plan.
 
I think...whether or not the value (sale prices) of tested and proven carriers drops will depend in part of how many horses prove to test negative. If 70% test free of all 4 mutations--the 30% positive ones will drop in value in most cases--simply because there will be so many others to choose from. If 70% test positive, the 30% that test free will be so high priced that many will not afford them--and the gene pool would be so limited that people will surely keep buying and breeding carriers, trying to raise more foals that will test free of dwarfism...

If the bigger percentage proves to test free--I think most people will want to buy and breed those free ones. This will mean less demand and generally lower prices for the positive ones.

Time will tell--but overall I do think those that test positive will be less in demand.

What is better (or cheaper)--to test all breeding stock, which then means the foals from two negative parents do not need to be tested--or to leave the mares untested, and then test only the foals as they are put up for sale?

How many buyers will ask for test results on every horse they buy--before they buy? Will sellers generally do this testing or will buyers have to do it as a pre-purchase exam? If it is a pre-purchase exam, if the buyer gets a positive test and does not buy the horse--next potential buyer has to do his own test? Same horse could get tested 6 times without selling.
 
I think honestly, no matter what there will always be dwarfism because those who are going to drop the prices of their stock are going to be the ones that first time mini owners will buy up, because they're cheap.

I don't think that any amount of education will help because there will always be somebody breeding inferior stock.

However, that does not mean that we should not test because I know that there are people with that mindset. Those who test are going to be the ones who strive to breed the best and they're the ones who should be breeding.

There is no excuse, and especially not money. If you can't afford to test, then you can't afford to breed. This is a test that ought to be required.
 
The fact that there are so many samples being submitted as soon as testing became available suggests to me that breeders may be treating this like the Lottery!. If they send in samples for all the stallions on their farm, then any that test free of all 4 dwarf genes are lottery winners! I suspect that most people will not advertise test results for horses that test positive for any of the genes. But having those results should help those breeders decide which crosses can be safely made without any chance of a dwarf. To me, that would be a good outcome. Do we know if UK is going to publish the overall test results periodically?

OK, now I will follow up on the question I posed above. As I understand from John's thesis - and I did write to him about his results - a high proportion of crosses, including D1 crossed with D1, D2. D3 or D4, result in early fetal death and not live dwarf foals. Having given this a lot of thought, I might be willing to chance a breeding involving a D1 carrier who was otherwise an outstanding specimen to another carrier if the worst result might be a slipped foal so early in the pregnancy it might never even be noticed. It would have to be an outstanding stallion or mare, and the point of this is that I am sure there ARE outstanding minis that will test positive for D1. They might include mares with poor foaling records, skipped years, hard to get in foal, you thought they took and they came back in heat, etc. Now I am not saying that would be the right decision for everyone, but everyone should be permitted to have the testing done and make what they feel is the right decision for them. Ideally, of course, I would want to breed a D1 carrier with a mini that was free of all 4 genes, but those might be hard to find. Oh, and I also think those slipped foals (early fetal deaths) are the reason that the estimates of carriers can be quite high while the number of actual dwarf births is nowhere near what might be expected from those estimates.
 
I am happy to announce that my mare Ozark Mtns Rare Penelope sired by Michigans Rare Penny and out of Horsefeathers Mel 'N Neeta tested negative for the full test panel!
Truly awesome news!! Thanks for sharing. I am still waiting with baited breath on our results on our two stallions. I got an email that samples were received on 4/16 so soon.
 
So, so, so excited for those of you that have sent in samples!

And jealous. Hoping to send in my samples this fall, probably one by one.
 
I'm also happy to see this, even if I don't have breeding animals at this time. Once I knew it was to be available, it changed my buying questions. I will be asking about test results, and a "none available" answer will result in a lot of "why's".

I expect that this will be like CA in Arabians. Some tested, posted results, and educated even if it hit their farm hard (Bazy Tankersley/Al-Marah are my idols for this!) Some tested, didn't share and dumped their carriers. Some didn't test, and unfortunately, some remained ignorant.

On a recent on-line auction, CA results were listed. Only one horse in the sale sold for less than $1750, there were no stallions offered. Those horses with negative results sold between $2000-$4500, depending on training level (all were under saddle.) The carriers sold from a low of $500-$2500. Broodmare with nice production record was the low seller--was her price affected more by the CA....or the fact that she was, by far, the oldest horse in the sale and wasn't under saddle? The other carriers were all under saddle, mares and geldings, and ONLY THE OLDER BROODMARE WITH NO TRAINING SOLD FOR LESS THAN $1750. (I'm writing this from memory, all errors are due to my own fault.)

The point to this? Marketing, education and training. Marketing and education go hand-in-hand. Many folks get interested by looking at the glossy print breed magazines. Some only look at the pictures/ads, and learn about inheritable faults in the content of those ads. Ads that share dwarf testing results will encourage buyers to question those sellers who don't list results. Education materials; I'd like to see at all shows, included in brochures and marketing materials that are sent from the registries, included in on-line content sponsored by the registries and by breeders, and member clubs holding meetings that cover just this topic. Encourage test results be included on registration certificates, and eventually (no more than 10 years) to be required for registry. In the absence of required DNA testing by the registry--even if both parents have no carrier results on file-- still require testing to register. Why?? Because it keeps the paper trail honest. *shrug*

Training, particularly in the last 10 years, is essential. This is true for the equine industry, not just miniatures. Flooded/depressed market means buyers want-and can get-more for their money. "But what can it do?" may be more common for us, however, I see it with all the breeds I have interests in. General observations....green at something seems to equate to about twice the sales price for unhandled animals. Solidly trained, or with modest show records, seem to sell for 3-5 times that base, unhandled animal price. There are exceptions, that's for another thread.

What to do with carriers? As many have said, that depends. And depends on many factors. How widespread is it? How does each strain affect the usability of the positive animal? Usability in this context is in relation to performance and general caretaking. For breeders, how does this affect their gene pool? If, as has been theorized, one registry will be more deeply affected than the other, it might require significant changes to be made. Again, more detail requires another thread.

As a buyer, IF I decide to buy an untested animal from a breeder, I may ask for a sales contract with a buy-back or refund clause. It's still early days for the test. By this time in 2016 though, I won't buy from untested stock. Why? A TRUE breeder, in my opinion, has the BEST INTERESTS OF THE BREED at the core of their program. Failing to test for inheritable faults is irresponsible. If necessary, test your stock in stages, stallions first since they "get around" more.

Testing positive for any one of these genes, for me with my breeders' heart, would take a tremendous amount of honesty and integrity to keep an animal in my breeding barn. Carrier + successful show/performance record + strong producing pedigree = breeding prospect. Non-carrier + successful show/performance record + strong producing pedigree = breeding prospect. Carrier/non-carrier - anything in the above formula = cull from BREEDING program. Keep for my own program, or sell to an educated buyer. If that buyer comes to me uneducated, I'll give them the resources they need.

Edited to add: Mary's (targets mom) post #51 above has, as it's root, breeder integrity as the basic question. And, in my opinion, Best Business Practices and TRUE breeder integrity don't often make comfy bed partners. So ask ourselves....are we BUSINESSMEN or BREEDERS????
 
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Dragon's Wish Farm, I agree with most of what you stated and say AMEN.

The only thing I view differently is the "show". Take the horse (California Chrome) From unknown and poorly raced parents, from an unknown owner. Look at what that horse has been able to do. Then look at Secretariat, never produced a foal that had what he did. I feel showing is not so much about a certain line or farm. It is that owner with that horse and they get out of it what they put into it. That being said, breeding for correctness with no ACAN, good bite, no stifle issues and the list goes on. Along with mind is the most important. Correct horses that match the breed description don't have to come from top names. If you think about it, those big names keep the best and truly most of what they sell are their culls. IMO.

If breeders are looking to improve the breed, then why are they breeding?

Within that sentiment, farm A likes the halter looking conformation, while farm B wants a more athletic look for carting and performance. Neither is wrong.
 
Scottishlass--thank you for the comment, now I have the opportunity to clarify my views on the "show".

Within my own (on paper at this point) breeding program, the show/performance portion of the formula is this:

I love to compete on the open show circuit. Why, when so many rated-show pros "pooh pooh" it?! Because if my horses are competitive under all-breed judges, I'm not suffering from barn blindness when assessing my animals. FOR ME AND MY PROGRAM, performance is, and always will be the basis for my stock. Good, trainable, inquisitive minds that are inclined to partner up with their trainers are my goal.

On this forum, one that comes to mind as a good example of the positive in dwarves, is misty'smom and her filly Josey. A well-cared for example of the SPIRITUAL usefulness of a miniature horse. In spite of Josey's physical challenges, she seems to enrich every life she comes into contact with. Would you want a carrier, who had Josey's temperament WITHOUT the conformation issues, to be excluded from the gene pool? Individual breeders will need to decide that within their own programs.

In Arabs, I wouldn't consider a CA carrier as a breeding prospect (with one exception) as there are enough non-carrier options for my program. I use the same formula as in my previous post for Arabs. The exception would be if I were a niche breeder...is: preservation bloodlines, Straight Spanish or other line-breeding subsets of a recognized breed.

Unless, or until, I see my choices limited beyond my self-imposed ones I will maintain the same position in my miniature program.

I have a question as well. I understood that AMHA wouldn't issue registration papers if the enclosed photos showed dwarf characteristics. Is that correct? Combine this with AMHA's policy of requiring the return of registration papers for horse that go oversize, and I wonder at the changes I'll see coming soon.

Guess that means if I want my opinion to count, I'd better update my memberships!! LOL
 
Until we know more of a percentage of those who test positive vs negative we can't do any rash changes. I personally feel that there should be enough negative carriers out there to not justify opening up both registries, BUT I could be wrong and could be more carriers then we realize. So far with the ones I have seen the results on its about 50-50 but a lot aren't posting results. But I personally think that the registries need to continue and support the breeders who have gone out and spend the money to test their horses vs letting unregistered horses back in. AMHA is closed, end of story. From what I heard they aren't even going to post the results on the horse's papers and I haven't even heard a statement from them about this test. Whereas with AMHR you can update the horse's papers for a small fee and they will put the results on the horse's papers.
 

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