Miniature market...i think I am cutting back..
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ECMHC
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As an established Miniature Horse Club and sanctioned with AMHR and AMHA, we appreciate and understand the concerns expressed here, especially with our NC neighbors. We strive to educate new folks, and had the opportunity to do that this weekend in Raleigh, NC at our Summer Classic show. There were several families there who expressed an interest in the Miniature Horse, were anxious to learn about them and their care, and to meet other enthusiasts. It was a great weekend, celebrating our love of the Miniature Horse !
There was also an open horse show going on at the same time, with Arabians, Quarter Horses, Warmbloods, English and Western style.... it was also a great weekend to celebrate the Equine community !!! (and several of the "big guys" came over to chat with us and enjoy the little ones)
We invite you all to join us, watch our website for upcoming events and let's all continue to support and promote the American Miniature Horse industry . We won't let those who choose to flood the market, and continue to breed large volumes of lesser quality foals, get us down. We can collectively advertise our love of the well planned out foal, the well cared for adult horses and, of course, the GELDING !!!!
That approach will only help us all, and, most importantly, help our horses have productive, healthy lives. We owe that to them, after all they give us so much in return.
There was also an open horse show going on at the same time, with Arabians, Quarter Horses, Warmbloods, English and Western style.... it was also a great weekend to celebrate the Equine community !!! (and several of the "big guys" came over to chat with us and enjoy the little ones)
We invite you all to join us, watch our website for upcoming events and let's all continue to support and promote the American Miniature Horse industry . We won't let those who choose to flood the market, and continue to breed large volumes of lesser quality foals, get us down. We can collectively advertise our love of the well planned out foal, the well cared for adult horses and, of course, the GELDING !!!!
That approach will only help us all, and, most importantly, help our horses have productive, healthy lives. We owe that to them, after all they give us so much in return.
vickie gee
Well-Known Member
I did not breed for next year and will for sure be cutting back. My time needs to be spent the next couple of years getting this place ready to sell, getting retired, and moving to an area of the country that suits us better. I got my dream filly this year. She will make a good playmate for my 3 year old 24" mare that is "special." I just need to get serious about trying to cut back...I jokingly refer to myself as the horse hoarder. Cutting back on the numbers will help me cut back on the time and money I spend on my fur babies and thus help us get prepared for our ultimate goals. Right now I am trying to figure out what I need to do as far as re-homing my insulin resistant mare to a proper home. Thanks to some good advise from members I have her back in good health but no way am I letting her go just anywhere and risk relapse. I would encourage anyone just starting out to limit their initial numbers to just a couple and take their time deciding what their intentions are as far as just having pets, showing, breeding, etc. It is for sure a buyer's market right now.
Little Wolf Ranch
Well-Known Member
I know I'm replying again but I got to thinking about a few points....
In an effort to keep breeders from producing ridiculous amounts of foals per year, why not get the registries to put a CAP on the number of foals that can be registered not only PER STALLION (say 5) but PER FARM/RESIDENCE/OWNER (let's say 10). This in return would cause breeders to breed only their best stock and therefore it should help foal prices rise, less quanitity and more demand?
Also if we REALLY WANTED to help the miniature horse as breed itself - I believe that registries should start making INSPECTIONS NECESSARY for all intact animals, geldings and proof of spayed mares are exempt. It would work like this, at every show they would offer this service, and it would be a one time thing. The registry would NOT allow 2y/o's to breed and as of 3 years old any horse who they want to get a foal from (be it mare or stallion) must be inspected, and must pass the inspection. Upon passing the inspection you would mail the horses reg. papers to the registry and they would put a seal on its papers deeming it breeding quality and therefore you can now breed said horse. It would make it to where only inspected horses could be bred, as the registry would NOT allow any stallion or mare's foals to be registered if BOTH the sire and dam have not been inspected.
I guess I would just like to see more strictness with the breeding management of these horses.
On a personal note, I myself just purchased a new colt this morning (will share details once I get him home) to replace my herd sire who is getting gelded this fall. It's a buyers market for sure and I just took advantage of this great market too! Bought an exceptional show quality weanling colt that is exactly what I wanted color wise and a beautiful horse to look at for super cheap. I consider myself lucky to be in such a position, I only have two mares, one soon-to-be gelding and one yearling overo stud colt (still wishy washy on him being intact or not....has bad yearling uglies lol) plus two riding horses so I am in no real need to reduce my numbers. Both my mares are bred for 2013 and they very well may never hit the sale market because I love what those two crosses produce. Then again, if I get flooded with boys I very well may place one or both up for sale.
In an effort to keep breeders from producing ridiculous amounts of foals per year, why not get the registries to put a CAP on the number of foals that can be registered not only PER STALLION (say 5) but PER FARM/RESIDENCE/OWNER (let's say 10). This in return would cause breeders to breed only their best stock and therefore it should help foal prices rise, less quanitity and more demand?
Also if we REALLY WANTED to help the miniature horse as breed itself - I believe that registries should start making INSPECTIONS NECESSARY for all intact animals, geldings and proof of spayed mares are exempt. It would work like this, at every show they would offer this service, and it would be a one time thing. The registry would NOT allow 2y/o's to breed and as of 3 years old any horse who they want to get a foal from (be it mare or stallion) must be inspected, and must pass the inspection. Upon passing the inspection you would mail the horses reg. papers to the registry and they would put a seal on its papers deeming it breeding quality and therefore you can now breed said horse. It would make it to where only inspected horses could be bred, as the registry would NOT allow any stallion or mare's foals to be registered if BOTH the sire and dam have not been inspected.
I guess I would just like to see more strictness with the breeding management of these horses.
On a personal note, I myself just purchased a new colt this morning (will share details once I get him home) to replace my herd sire who is getting gelded this fall. It's a buyers market for sure and I just took advantage of this great market too! Bought an exceptional show quality weanling colt that is exactly what I wanted color wise and a beautiful horse to look at for super cheap. I consider myself lucky to be in such a position, I only have two mares, one soon-to-be gelding and one yearling overo stud colt (still wishy washy on him being intact or not....has bad yearling uglies lol) plus two riding horses so I am in no real need to reduce my numbers. Both my mares are bred for 2013 and they very well may never hit the sale market because I love what those two crosses produce. Then again, if I get flooded with boys I very well may place one or both up for sale.
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In an effort to keep breeders from producing ridiculous amounts of foals per year, why not get the registries to put a CAP on the number of foals that can be registered not only PER STALLION (say 5) but PER FARM/RESIDENCE/OWNER (let's say 10). This in return would cause breeders to breed only their best stock and therefore it should help foal prices rise, less quanitity and more demand?
I, for one, would adamantly OPPOSE this idea. Although we rarely breed more than 2-3 here anymore and generally keep those, because we breed for QUALITY for ourselves first.....but this would not do anything to stem the flood of unregistered horses, but actually create more. Most big farms breed 30 to 100 mares are year and if you only limit the ones that can be registered, it would not stop some. They will contine to breed, pick 10 of their best to register and do what they do now, sell the rest cheaply-but as purely grade stock. If you have ever gone to some of the sales/auctions you know that it is not the "Best of the Best" that comes through for sale and has for years. In my humble opinion, the QUANTITY would not go down...just the QUALITY of what is out there for sale to the public and they would not be able to ever be registered in either registry after 2013....just a flood of grade horses out there.
Plus, the loss of income for both registries if they limit the amount of newly registered foals would be staggering.....a loss they can ill afford at this time for sure.
I, for one, would adamantly OPPOSE this idea. Although we rarely breed more than 2-3 here anymore and generally keep those, because we breed for QUALITY for ourselves first.....but this would not do anything to stem the flood of unregistered horses, but actually create more. Most big farms breed 30 to 100 mares are year and if you only limit the ones that can be registered, it would not stop some. They will contine to breed, pick 10 of their best to register and do what they do now, sell the rest cheaply-but as purely grade stock. If you have ever gone to some of the sales/auctions you know that it is not the "Best of the Best" that comes through for sale and has for years. In my humble opinion, the QUANTITY would not go down...just the QUALITY of what is out there for sale to the public and they would not be able to ever be registered in either registry after 2013....just a flood of grade horses out there.
Plus, the loss of income for both registries if they limit the amount of newly registered foals would be staggering.....a loss they can ill afford at this time for sure.
Carolyn R
Well-Known Member
In regards to your response Katie, I see nothing wrong with a stallion inspection, many breeds have it in order to deem as breeding quality (not so much with the mares). As far as putting a cap on the number of mares a stallion can service, I don't agree with it for the simple fact that I feel it is too much of a "big brother is in control" type of move, I think a better choice may be to offer an incentive, discount or coupon voucher on foal registration something for those that choose to breed selectively. With that said, two major issues that come up with this.......one, any discount or cap put on foals would affect the cash flow of the registries, the second issue, there will still be a ton of unregistered horses, maybe even more so. if there was a cap placed on a stallions number of offspring each year, some larger breeders may be inclined to do test runs when it comes to crossing certain horses, resulting in unregistered foals. If it was a great cross it would be repeated for a registered foal the next year, if it was not a good cross they wouldn't waste their time or "waste a registered breeding" on the cross the following year.
Suzie, we must have been writing at the same time
Suzie, we must have been writing at the same time
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Riverrose28
Well-Known Member
I agree with Suzie. I too only breed a couple of mares a year, and even then, not every year. Havn't had a foal on the ground since 2010. Some auctions though do offer their best, such as the Champion Sale or the online auctions to the public. I also breed for myself but obviously can't show all I would like to have shown. I used to have more finances and was able to hire a trainer to help with showing, but this recession has taken its toll. I've already cut back on breeding as sales are flat and part of it is my fault concerning marketing. I did just have my web-site redone, and am now working on updateing, so maybe marketing will improve for me. I've been to my share of auctions and some of the buyers want the most awful horses ever! It is so hard to believe that a buyer will spend $1000 on a dwarf, and pass by a horse with good conformation and pedigree. I swear if I had the room I would have bought a buckskin mare I saw at auction last year sired by Buckaroo and she had it all except she needed conditioning, she sold for around $350. Shame! I think the major problem with our mini market is education and bringing in new people, we need to get our good quality horses out in public more often for more people to see!
I know I replied once, but something has continued to bother me. A few weeks ago, I attended a clinic where a well-known trainer/breeder spoke. Something he said has continue to play on my mind. He mentioned "judging changes for the current trend in the market. If you breed to the current trend-you are always behind due to gestation, etc." He was referring to people who like nice croups, nice shoulders, etc. I understand his point, but it bothers me.
When I got home, I thought about this long and hard. We have been breeding here on our farm for many, many years, not to sell to the current "trend" but to provide the best balanced, best conformation of the foal we can. Period. I have no idea if I am breeding for the current "trend", probably not. But, it always bothers me a bit when I see folks selling horses "because we have changed our breeding program". Maybe they mean for conformation improvement or ?, but I always wonder if it is for black/whites to palominos or appys or ? I really hope not.
If there are truly folks out there breeding for the "current trend" then the population explosion will never diminish, and I suspect there are a lot of them out there. There is so much education lacking in mini horses. They have the "puppy factor" working against them. Puppies are so cute and cuddly, as are minis as foals. The same factors apply to puppy mills and minis....and we don't seem to be able to control puppy mills either.
Personally, I have turned down sales to folks I knew for sure were in the dwarf production business. None of my horses had produced dwarves, but I had a tiny stallion that a buyer wanted for his dwarf mares. He flatly told me that dwarf horses he sold were 3 times what my nice horses were going for and he fully intended to continue his business. Sad, but true. That trend needs to be halted but as long as there is a market, there will be suppliers like him.
When I got home, I thought about this long and hard. We have been breeding here on our farm for many, many years, not to sell to the current "trend" but to provide the best balanced, best conformation of the foal we can. Period. I have no idea if I am breeding for the current "trend", probably not. But, it always bothers me a bit when I see folks selling horses "because we have changed our breeding program". Maybe they mean for conformation improvement or ?, but I always wonder if it is for black/whites to palominos or appys or ? I really hope not.
If there are truly folks out there breeding for the "current trend" then the population explosion will never diminish, and I suspect there are a lot of them out there. There is so much education lacking in mini horses. They have the "puppy factor" working against them. Puppies are so cute and cuddly, as are minis as foals. The same factors apply to puppy mills and minis....and we don't seem to be able to control puppy mills either.
Personally, I have turned down sales to folks I knew for sure were in the dwarf production business. None of my horses had produced dwarves, but I had a tiny stallion that a buyer wanted for his dwarf mares. He flatly told me that dwarf horses he sold were 3 times what my nice horses were going for and he fully intended to continue his business. Sad, but true. That trend needs to be halted but as long as there is a market, there will be suppliers like him.
I have 6 foals from this year and yes, all but 2 are for sale. If they don't sell, the colts will be gelded as soon as their testes are accessible. I just sold a 3 yr old filly as a pet and was surprised to get the $400 I was asking. I have a total of 9 of my 20 minis for sale, but am set to care for them if they don't. I have even considered gelding my Gold Melody Boy bred stallion if he doesn't sell. I have not nor will not breed for next year, or the year after, and after that I MIGHT breed one or two if my numbers are down. I generally only breed 2 mares every other year, but last year took a chance and now it's biting me in the rear as I didn't expect to become pregnant myself!
So, I will have 7 "infants" to care for this summer
I am absolutely opposed to the 'dictatorship' of a registry telling me how many I can register. This would not benefit the registry either. You can't force big breeders to have common sense. They will breed dozens of mares anyhow and then take the rest to auction with no papers. That would do nothing to help the market for sure.
Littlegoesalongway
Well-Known Member
As a non-breeder and new (as of 2 years ago) mini owner, this thread has made for an interesting read.
I've been involved with horses my whole life, mostly as a rider. Have seen miniature horses throughout the years, thought they were 'cute' but...what on earth can you do with a mini? Wasn't until I tried to get into Combined Driving with my big horses that I came to appreciate the mini's potential as a sport horse. I gained a ton of respect for their abilities after seeing one come in from a full marathon with very little sweat, he recovered quickly and was even ready for more. It blew my mind!
Decided right then that I wanted a mini for CDEs. I'm on my own in all my horse endeavours (my husband has severe allergies) and although I've fallen in love with Combined Driving I wasn't able to compete as I couldn't load/unload a carriage by myself and I didn't have anyone to groom for me. Having a Mini solved everything & I haven't looked back since.
I think the performance miniature needs to become more visible to the average horse person. Combined Driving is one sport where mini's can compete on the same level with larger horses. Our driving club does a lot of clinics & events to increase the profile of driving to the local horse community and I get a lot of comments from riders that they had no idea a mini was so capable, portable, tough, strong and just as fulfilling as a 'real' horse!
However, people need to realize that a mini IS STILL A HORSE. They require the same care and the cost of that care is the same for any horse (cost of feed is really your only savings). And the cheapest part of owning any horse is the purchase price!
I think this is the biggest challenge to the mini market.
I've been involved with horses my whole life, mostly as a rider. Have seen miniature horses throughout the years, thought they were 'cute' but...what on earth can you do with a mini? Wasn't until I tried to get into Combined Driving with my big horses that I came to appreciate the mini's potential as a sport horse. I gained a ton of respect for their abilities after seeing one come in from a full marathon with very little sweat, he recovered quickly and was even ready for more. It blew my mind!
Decided right then that I wanted a mini for CDEs. I'm on my own in all my horse endeavours (my husband has severe allergies) and although I've fallen in love with Combined Driving I wasn't able to compete as I couldn't load/unload a carriage by myself and I didn't have anyone to groom for me. Having a Mini solved everything & I haven't looked back since.
I think the performance miniature needs to become more visible to the average horse person. Combined Driving is one sport where mini's can compete on the same level with larger horses. Our driving club does a lot of clinics & events to increase the profile of driving to the local horse community and I get a lot of comments from riders that they had no idea a mini was so capable, portable, tough, strong and just as fulfilling as a 'real' horse!
However, people need to realize that a mini IS STILL A HORSE. They require the same care and the cost of that care is the same for any horse (cost of feed is really your only savings). And the cheapest part of owning any horse is the purchase price!
S
StarRidgeAcres
Guest
Wow! Once of the best posts in a long time in my opinion!! You hit several nails squarely on the head...the ever-changing "fad" which I think is BS when the judges are changing "their impressions" constantly of the standard, when the standard is documented and does NOT continually change. The puppy factor, the dwarves, etc. Excellent post!
mshasta88
Well-Known Member
The mini market or the horse market in general isn't moving at all here. I started feeling the same way that you and others do in regards to cutting back and not breeding but I have already bred all my mares back so it is too late to change my mind. Like others have said, I have some of the best horses I've ever owned now but it is a shame that 5 years ago I would have been able to sell them for 3 times what I'm asking. I also recently had an inquire for stallion that someone wanted to breed to unregistered mares and I respectfully responded by telling him to look elsewhere because I don't think it is right to bring horses in the world and our market that aren’t quality in these hard times.
Lewella
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Some thoughts....
Registries are businesses. Yes, they are not-for-profit for the most part but they still have to have a business model and conduct themselves as a business or in no time flat they will be broke. Fewer foals born means fewer new registrations which means LESS income for the registry right now and less residual income for the registry in the future from the transfers, temp to perm, future foals, etc. If income isn't coming in then the registry can't put money out. Remember that when you want a new program that will cost the registry money - money must be coming in for money to go out.
Inspections - Who are you or I to tell someone their animal who has no prohibited genetic defects isn't worthy of registration? Who is going to bear the cost of inspection? Who is going to pony up the lost income to the registries from the animals that won't be inspected or fail inspection? What will happen to the genetic diversity of the breed?
A breeding cap won't stand up in a court of law. We go back to the AQHA's embryo transfer lawsuit again - a ruling that said that you can't restrict the number of foals per animal per year. If AQHA can't restrict how many foals a mare produces from flushed embryos a year, the miniature registries certainly can't restrict the number of foals that can be registered per animal per year.
Registries are businesses. Yes, they are not-for-profit for the most part but they still have to have a business model and conduct themselves as a business or in no time flat they will be broke. Fewer foals born means fewer new registrations which means LESS income for the registry right now and less residual income for the registry in the future from the transfers, temp to perm, future foals, etc. If income isn't coming in then the registry can't put money out. Remember that when you want a new program that will cost the registry money - money must be coming in for money to go out.
Inspections - Who are you or I to tell someone their animal who has no prohibited genetic defects isn't worthy of registration? Who is going to bear the cost of inspection? Who is going to pony up the lost income to the registries from the animals that won't be inspected or fail inspection? What will happen to the genetic diversity of the breed?
A breeding cap won't stand up in a court of law. We go back to the AQHA's embryo transfer lawsuit again - a ruling that said that you can't restrict the number of foals per animal per year. If AQHA can't restrict how many foals a mare produces from flushed embryos a year, the miniature registries certainly can't restrict the number of foals that can be registered per animal per year.
mshasta88
Well-Known Member
Nicely put Lewella
your comment made me feel somewhat better about having 5 foals next year. Even though I will be paying for registration, I need to keep in mind the future of the registries and my own business.
I believe folks it comes down to responsible breeding. A registry can't tell you how many to breed per year....with that said, I believe what you do breed, buy or accumulate, you are responsible for for the rest of its natural life.
The entire equine market is in the clanker, it is irresponsible to keep breeding to get the 'one, or the 'ten' that would make the cut and then flood auctions with 100-400 head of unwanted animnals.
Be reasonable, sensible, conscientious and accountable.
The entire equine market is in the clanker, it is irresponsible to keep breeding to get the 'one, or the 'ten' that would make the cut and then flood auctions with 100-400 head of unwanted animnals.
Be reasonable, sensible, conscientious and accountable.
I realize there are circumstances that some may have lost jobs, taken a pay cut, etc... but as soon as the financial issues started to get bad, people started to bail. They sell out entire herds because now they are not going to make the money they were. This is another big thing adding to the flooded market- reminds me of the issues with the Depression and the problems and everyone ran to pull their money- that helped just send it all over the edge.
Riverrose28
Well-Known Member
Laurie, I think you may be right, I know when when got into minis we had a great income and thought we would keep all of our purchases and anything bred here, right here. But, after a job lose, two daughters with cancer, another job lose and other health issues, not to mention the high cost required to bred, register, feed, show, we have decided to scale down. There are other reasons too for people such as death in the family, retirement, etc. So although many start out with the best of intentions, sometime circumstance change that are beyound our control. It is not up to us to judge why someone needs to sell or at what price, I'm sure they have their reasons, but since prices are down it is shame with so many suffering in this economy.
mshasta88
Well-Known Member
Laurie, once again you nailed it. I have noticed a lot of her dispersals sense January. I’m glad that I will be one of the few left when the market does come back J. I had a major loss in my life a few years back the forced me to sale my whole herd but when I got back on my feet I was able to purchase my stock back. I sure hope that when the economy levels out, we will see people coming back to the industry.
Yes, I have had some ups and downs too- death of each parent, my own health issues a couple of times along with my BF, so I can't say it's been easy at times. That I understand- sometimes life just throws rocks at people.
It's all the ones- and I have seen dozens it seems- that have just dumped herd after herd on the market because uh oh, now the money is not as good- and the market is floodine not just because of excessive breeding- but because of those dumping hundreds out there simply because they will move on to something else to see if the market is any better on that 'product'.
It's all the ones- and I have seen dozens it seems- that have just dumped herd after herd on the market because uh oh, now the money is not as good- and the market is floodine not just because of excessive breeding- but because of those dumping hundreds out there simply because they will move on to something else to see if the market is any better on that 'product'.
