"Miniture" Breeding Stock

[midnight star stables]

Over sized breeding stock.

First off, this is NOT about ANY farm or any person or any horse. Just a honest question I thought of at work last night.

Now, lets say you go to visit a farm of all AMHA and AMHA/AMHR horses. Some of their horses are rather small, however you see some much larger horses out in the back. You ask about them and are told that they are just their AMHA breeding stock broodmares. You go to look at them and they are clearly 36", 37", 38" miniatures....

Then the next day you go to another farm. This farm breeds AMHR and AMHR/ASPC. You are looking at their stock and notice some rather large ponys out in the field. You say something to the effect of "Oh I didn't know you also had only ASPC ponys." and are kindly told that thoses ARE their AMHR and AMHR/ASPC horses when some are clearly over 38"... Be it 40" to anything as high as 45", 46"....

Now, be it that the horse was hardshipped, out grew their papers or anything else.... Said horses are safe from protest.... As long as they never set foot in the show ring... right?

So you could have a 50" "miniatre" in your breeding stock, just as long as you never show it? Breeding it to say a 28" mini to a foal that would hopefully be under 38"

I theory, is this true?

Wow, Isn't that nice

 

[minimomNC]

Not only in theory but in reality, this is very true. A lot of farms have those oversize mares in their pastures, not every farm but some. And they do breed them and they do get foals that stay in size.

 

[ontherisefarm]

AMHA does have an oversize breedingstock section from way back so not sure how old those horses would be about now but there could possibly be some oversize AMHA's registered legally. As for the other sometimes horses with alot of leg tend to look pretty tall when in fact they are within limits but of course then there are some who do keep oversize to breed with.. Ya know I really dont worry about what others are doing . I just worry about what I am doing and if I dont like what someone else is doing I just dont buy from them., But that is just me.. I gotta live with myself.. If I worried about everyone else I could quite possibly go crazy...

 

[wcr]

This has been the topic of many, many,many discussions on this forum. It has also been the reason many people think we should have a breeding stock registry. We all are aware of the oversized horses in back pastures and in a perfect world people would turn in their papers but this is not a perfect world. I have only one over 34 horse on the place but have never gotten an oversized baby. Should I make this horse close to worthless in todays economy by turning in papers? I don't think so.

 

[midnight star stables]

I was just wondering. I didn't know if there was something in place to protest the bigger breed horses or not.

Oh well.... I guess that's the way it is.

I myself have never been to a farm where this is the case, so I was just wondering out loud.

 

[Genie]

I turned my papers in on an AMHA horse because I thought that when I registered her babies they would not qualify for AMHA papers since the mare's height is required on the registration?

I have since sold the mare with her AMHR papers only, but if I could have kept her and registered her babies to the AMHA registry anyway, even though she is oversize then that's ridiculous. Her babies are not huge and our studs are small.

The mare was just over 34 inches, but definitely over.

 

[maestoso]

I personally think that the AMHA should allow AMHA oversized mares to keep their papers as breeding stock, allowing any offspring to be registered AMHA IF it stays under. We are a height registry after all, so it shouldn't matter if the mare is 6 feet tall, as long as she can produce foals that will stay under.

 

[disneyhorse]

I don't really have a problem with it, personally, either way.

I think if the Registries REALLY cared, they would have a way to do an inspection. Some breeds have the horse inspected at a young age to get it's papers, and then as a mature horse (five or so) to get the permanent papers.

You could do this with minis, to screen out dwarfism as well as measure them to ensure they are in height.

But.... the Registries are pretty lax so I don't see it happening. And it would cut down on their income. BUT it would also increase the value of a registered animal. The breeds that do inspections (such as Andalusians, Friesians, etc.) are generally worth more because of the expense and time involved to get them registered.

Andrea

 

[MiLo Minis]

I personally think that the AMHA should allow AMHA oversized mares to keep their papers as breeding stock, allowing any offspring to be registered AMHA IF it stays under. We are a height registry after all, so it shouldn't matter if the mare is 6 feet tall, as long as she can produce foals that will stay under.

But Matt!!! If the mare that went over can keep its papers and register her foals shouldn't the foal be allowed keep its papers too and be kept for breeding even if it goes over? (playing devil's advocate here) Where does it stop?

 

[Mona]

I personally think that the AMHA should allow AMHA oversized mares to keep their papers as breeding stock, allowing any offspring to be registered AMHA IF it stays under. We are a height registry after all, so it shouldn't matter if the mare is 6 feet tall, as long as she can produce foals that will stay under.

But Matt!!! If the mare that went over can keep its papers and register her foals shouldn't the foal be allowed keep its papers too and be kept for breeding even if it goes over? (playing devil's advocate here) Where does it stop?

Yes, that's exactly what I thought when I read Matt's reply as well. Why would it be OK for the oversized mare(dam) to keep her papers, but yet the foal would lose theirs?

 

[maestoso]

It stops when you bring the registered mini to the show and they measure out, and are ineligible to show. The horses that sell for reasonable money are ones that have show records, or are bought for the purpose of showing, or have produced horses with good show records so they are marketable as a breeding animal, or they are sold to people who are smart and can really see a horses potential. Horses with show records are obviously the appropriate height, because they were measured in. Horses that have produced show winners can obviously produce horses that stay under. The horses that are bought as show prospects are going to be measured by the prospective buyer(smart buyers anyway) and if they were oversized they wouldnt buy it as a show horse. And horses bought by people who see potential, well that person is going to notice if they look big, and will likely think twice before spending lots of money.

The only horses that all that doesn't cover, are the ones that sit in the back yard and do nothing, and/or produce horses that will also sit in the back yard and do nothing, or maybe used for pleasure driving, pet type back yard whatever. In that case, why does it matter that they are over?

 

[crponies]

As it stands right now, it is against the rules to keep a horse registered if they are over height. That depends on the owners' integrity if the rules are followed are not. If an AMHA horse goes over 34" and the owner chooses to keep the papers, they are being dishonest. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Same is true if an AMHR horse goes over 38". This measuring problem definitely goes a lot deeper than who's measuring at shows. It is an honesty problem with the members too. If the registries are interested in becoming more than just height breeds, than they need to change their rules to something like Matt has suggested. Let horses keep their papers no matter their mature height but be strict at shows that those heights are correct and be honest about every registered horse's height. So, a mare grows to 36". AMHA would register her permanent height as 36" and she would be ineligible for AMHA shows. However, she could still be used for breeding if her owner chose to do so and would produce AMHA eligible foals that would not have to be hardshipped and would be able to have their pedigree accurately reflected on their registration. This is not how it currently is though, and I agree with you, Lisa, that it is a shame that there are people out there not following the rules. It reflects very poorly on their character IMO.

 

[maestoso]

I can't speak for everyone, but what I am saying is that I think AMHA SHOULD allow over sized mares to keep their papers as breeding stock. Currently, as you know, the registry does not allow that. How I feel about not turning in papers on oversized mares is a totally different subject. Integrity is important to me. However to think that there aren't MANY people who are doing this is crazy. They are and have been for several years I am sure.

But registry inspections would require several inspectors, and then the inspectors will be accused of playing favorites or being intimidated or bought, or AMHA will be accused of not training them properly, much like the fiasco with official measurers now.

What will be next on the agenda????

Sorry to poke a little fun, I do respect those working so hard towards changes they feel strongly about, I just sit back and sort of sigh at it all. Things are never going to be perfect, and sometimes trying to "fix" problems tends to cause even bigger ones....... We will have to just wait and see where it all goes I suppose.

 

[maestoso]

Lisa you now have me confused........

To recap, for both your and my understanding

AMHA does not allow it

I think they should

Everybody knows people do it (I didn't say I did it, I own just one 31 and 3/4 inch yearling colt)

And how does this make me dishonest? I am dishonest because I think a rule should be changed? Or because I know people are breaking rules? Or because I am not running around reporting these people?

If that makes me dishonest than I guess I am among the majority of the members of the AMHA.

I am not a breeder either, so what exactly are you referring to?

And like you advised, i just thought about it, but I still think that AMHA should allow oversize mares to keep their papers as breeding stock

Allowing this would hurt AMHA? Where is the evidence for that? This would not allow oversize horses to show, just to breed, and have foals be eligible for registration. The only hurt this would cause, is that the registry would collect a lot less in hardshipping fees.

 

[dreaminmini]

I am not a breeder and fairly new to minis. But my question is this: why would people be breeding with oversize stock? Why are they breeding in faults? What if these foals get sold to other breeders who in turn breed them to a taller (closer to 34") stallion and end up with that resulting foal going over? Because maybe both the mothers of these were oversize. It's now become a problem for someone else to perpetuate using that foal possibly as an over mare to have more babies. Or having to try and sell it as a pet only. Kinda seems rather dumb to me. If they weren't doing this then maybe we wouldn't have such a concern for measuring at shows as everyone would legitimately be under the 34". Just my opinion for what it is worth.

 

[maestoso]

The size of horses at shows has everything to do with measuring and nothing to do with breeding. As for your comment about breeding faults, that depends on what you consider a fault. To me, cow hocks is a fault, height is not. Again, I am not saying change the height requirement, but if a mare can produce under 34" why not allow the foals to be registered. Again, we ARE a height registry.

 

[dreaminmini]

I am assuming the since the AMHR registry is 34 " therefore those over 34" have a fault. In terms of breeding, you should try not to perpetuate faults. Also since these horses should have lost their papers they have no right being bred regardless if they produce smaller as the genetics may also end up giving some honest breeder over size foals to deal with in the future. (like stallion with oversize mother being bred to either oversize mare or better yet oversize mare from an oversize mother)

Like I said before that if all horses being bred to one another are all under 34" (not from parents of 36"-38") then there is very little likelihood of the offspring going over and therefore would probably end the big measuring dilemma.

 

[maestoso]

LisaF--- No worries, I was more confused than angry

Dreamini--- If what your saying is true(If we only bred under 34" minis, the liklihood of producing larger is low) than explain to me this...

My colt is a yearling and stands at 31 and 3/4, maybe a little taller, and I am hoping he holds out on another growth spurt until after the world show. he will likely mature around 33-33 and 1/2. If you go back 3 generations in his pedigree, there is only one horse over 30" and she stands at 32". So where does my Pogo come from?

Yes, that is only one example, but within a 3 mile radius, I have several friends who have had similar experiences. So your theory doesn't have a lot of factual backing.

Furthermore, trying to remove height, can mean removing valuable stock. One example of this is the Rowdy line, which is notorious for throwing taller horses. There are stories of Rowdy himself having to be kept trimmed almost to the point of soreness just to keep him at 34". Without Rowdy bloodlines, where would the miniature horse "breed" be today???

 

[R3]

I have a 35" AMHA mare in my pasture, and she has been producing registered AMHA foals for me.

! ! ! ! GASP ! ! ! !

OK, now that you have had time to think what a terrible cheater I am, or that I have no integrity, or any other number of terrible things.

My mare is 29 years old, and is a Foundation Oversize mare. AMHA knows all about her and her size, and doesn't have a problem registering her foals.

There are benefits to allowing 'oversize' horses to be kept in the gene pool. Maybe not with 'regular' AMHA papers, but at least with some documentation and the ability to have 'regular' AMHA offspring, if the foals stay within the AMHA 'Standard of Perfection'.

One of the benefits, is INCREASING the integrity of the organization as a whole. If a person could admit that their horse is over 34", and not lose it from the legal gene pool, then people would be more likely to tell people how tall the horse reallly is. That would be better for buyers than what happens when a horse is oversize, but the papers are not turned in, and they continue to breed it. The buyer of the foal does not know how tall the parent really are. At least if the oversize horse had some form of AMHA papers, buyers would KNOW how tall the parents are.

I do not advocate the showing of 'oversize' horses. The Standard of Perfection would be the same. I don't think that a 'breeding stock' or some other division necessarily means that AMHA is changing the Standard. They would just be acknowleding the pedigree of 'pure-bred' AMHA horses in this special division.

Maybe some people don't realize it, but with dogs, there are Standards for the height of each breed, and if a dog does not meet the Standard, it is disqualified for showing. BUT, it does not lose it registration, it is just not eligible to show. The 'breeding stock' (or whatever a person wanted to call it) Division, would be similar, but even more distinct than with dogs, as the horse would lose its 'regular' papers, but still allowed to produce registered foals. To be eligible for the special division, the horses would have to be the offspring of two registered parents, but if they didn't meet the Standard, could not show. With proper selection of a mate, these horses could still produce foals that met the Standard.

The other thing that needs to be considered, is that at some time, we are wanting the Miniature Horse to be more than just a 'height' registry. We are hoping to move toward it becoming a 'breed'. The first step is being taken as it has been voted on to do away with Hardshipping horses in the future. That means we will no longer be admitting horses with unknown pedigrees into the registry. But, unlike with dogs, once we establish ourselves as a 'breed', are we going to 'throw away' a 'purebred' animal? Or, will we be like the dog breeds that recognize all the offspring of two registered parents? I don't believe that height is a genetic 'flaw' that should disqualify an animal's birthright once the registry is closed and we become a breed.

The other benefit is monetary. But, I even hate to say that, as some people will get 'negative' because they think that making money, or even the consideration of a financial benefit is 'bad'. But, all organizations need to make money to cover their expenses so they can continue to offer their services to the members. Right now, when a horse goes over 34", the horse is 'lost' to AMHA. It will (should) never be brought permanent, so no more fees will be collected from that horse. It is denied the right to have any registered offspring, so there will never be any income generated from the registration of those foals. Therefore, having a separate Division for the over 34" horses would be a financial benefit to AMHA.

I just thought I add all of this to what Matt has been trying to say. I do understand where he is coming from.

 

[dreaminmini]

Okay, I can see both of your points of view (I am trying to learn as much as I can and I am not trying to get after anyone) but: if you think of what I said and then what you are arguing for in terms of breeding oversize, then explain to me the seemingly large prevalance of AMHA horse going over and this giant measuring mess.

Matt- if your horse is going to exceed his lineage in height, then how woud you be feeling now if you saw a bunch of horses in his pedigree WERE oversize? Bet you be a lot more nervous he would go over. I wasn't saying it would never happen but I would bet it would lessen the chances quite a bit.

R3- I was not insinuating anyone was cheating or taking shots. I do realize that the AMHR has two different height classes. And the oversize would not have a fault there and if they want to hardship in no arguments here but as an AMHA horse the fact that it is over 34" is a fault for that registry. They want to perpetuate the 34" and under mini which probably is not being helped with the common practice it seems of breeding oversize minis as you are putting more oversize into the genetic pool increasing the likelihood of oversize offspring. If breeders are feeling that these oversize horses are worth breeding to and have much good to offer the breed maybe there would more to be gained by registering them AMHR, then they would be free to HONESTLY reveal their true size.

I guess I'm just seeing so many blurred lines in many aspects of miniature horses that I feel that the breed/height registry is being eroded and wondering what the outcome will be and if we'll like it or regret our choices.