National Top Ten vs. National Champion

[Fred]

Well I will tell you I DO see champion this or that advertised [on a regular basis mind you] in my area for horses I KNOW have only won at either regionals or little podunk shows. Yes it does irk me also. I ALWAYS [when I do advertise] put the correct placing in the ad. Have yet to be in a class of less than ten at nationals though and there are very few of those. Though I have seen more less than ten at Worlds.

 

[Jill]

It sounds like I'm not the only one annoyed by this kind of mis-statement! And, I totally agree that National Top 10 is an accomplishment of which to be proud. I know some of the classes where Destiny and DunIT earned those honors had 40 and 50 + horses in the ring... Sooooooo, doesn't that mean there are 30 - 40 + that would love to claim National Top 10? There's no reason to not get it right.

On a side note, kinda, when it comes to looking up show records, make sure you look far enough before passing your own judgement. I know some of my horses have won a class of one... or two... small classes, and then gone on to take the grands where the contenders came from classes of many.

 

[frekles93]

[SIZE=14pt]All I know is that if I went to Nationals-- got 10th in my class--- I would want EVERYONE to know that I have a National TOP TEN horse. I would have worked hard to get there. Granted this staement can be missread or mistaken by a potential buyer, but HONEST sellers will put it out front that he/she placed tenth out of XX amount of horses...... wether or not I placed 10th there or 10th in a local fun show, I would be a tellin people...

[/SIZE]

April

 

[kaykay]

What really gets me is advertising fun show results to sell a horse and not saying it was a fun show placing. I saw an ad a long time ago that advertised a horse as Grand Champion his first time out! well number one it was a fun show and number two there were no other horses in the class LOL. I love fun shows and they are great fun and a great learning tool. But you cannot compare those wins to a rated show win. I really think people should always clarify if its a rated show or a fun show or an all breed show.

 

[Jill]

What really gets me is advertising fun show results to sell a horse and not saying it was a fun show placing. I saw an ad a long time ago that advertised a horse as Grand Champion his first time out! well number one it was a fun show and number two there were no other horses in the class LOL. I love fun shows and they are great fun and a great learning tool. But you cannot compare those wins to a rated show win. I really think people should always clarify if its a rated show or a fun show or an all breed show.

I guess I see your point with horses who've only got "local" or "fun" show wins. I always list the name of the show, the location of the show, the date and the judge's name. Since my horses have done well Nationally, I don't feel guilty by being proud of our local victories as well :bgrin But you won't catch me calling my National Top Ten horses National Champions... And I always disclose if it's a conformation class or something less meaningful (from a breed standpoint), like color or costume.

 

[Lisa Strass]

Jill~ I agree, too, but no big surprise there.

: In additon to the National Top Ten vs National Champion, Sheryl mentioned my particular pet peeve...

This also happens when people come back from sanctioned shows claiming they won Senior or Junior Stallion/Mare/Gelding Grand Champion and than took over all Grand Champion.

You do NOT have a Grand Champion/Reserve Grand Champion per age division (JR/SR), just a Champion and Reserve Champion. It is those Junior & Senior Champions and Reserve Champions who come back for the title of Grand Champion/Res. Grand Champion.

A Grand Champion is the horse that beats ALL aged horses in its proper division.

A Champion is a horse that beat all others IN that age division.

Senior Champion has beat all those 3 and older.

Junior Champion has beat all those 2 and under.

I guess it applies only to ASPC/AMHR and not AMHA, but it drives me crazy

:

 

[Erica]

I think it would be most honest, if that is not too strong a term, when advertising a "Top Ten" to state his placement- "placed 5th out of 6 in top ten" does not sound so impressive but gives a far better idea of the horse's abilities- after all, those horses all had to qualify to be there and a statement like that tells me a lot about the advertiser!!

It really is somewhat up to the BUYER or should I say potential buyer to dig the dirt so to speak if they want ot know about a horses show record. And I say that NOT meaning that the seller doesn't diclose information, what it's won, what shows, judges ext...........

I know more about what my horses took at what show, under what judges, how many were in the class and who the other horses were than what I had for lunch yesterday :bgrin

But more on the lines, there are some shows/areas ext....where a 3rd out of just 6 horses could be quite impressive; I mean even at several of our shows in Area Five that a class may have 6 horses and I'd venture to beat 5 of them will be top ten in a huge class at Nationals..........

Or was this horse shown at a show and took Grand Champion, was 8 in his class, but the quality of horses were not nearly as high as the show above that only had 6 in the class??

Buyers are able to log on to either AMHR or AMHA and see some of the horses/people/trainers at any given show and judge whether the competition was stiff or not. It's all right there for the potential buyer to look up with just a click of the mouse if they want.

Everyone should be proud of EVERY ribbon they bring home, as it takes a lot of time and effort to achieve it, strive for better each show.

 

[Bess Kelly]

On a side note, kinda, when it comes to looking up show records, make sure you look far enough before passing your own judgement. I know some of my horses have won a class of one... or two... small classes, and then gone on to take the grands where the contenders came from classes of many.

As Jill mentions, this is so true. Most know I am a "champion" pusher of the tiny ones....

: and I can tell you for certain that the under 28's were always a class that you hoped had more than 3 in it at the sanctioned shows! In fact, there was a time when even the National show didn't always have a full class -- which has, thankfully, changed -- but not the 50 you see in some classes.

The points are given based on numbers in the classes. Thus the little guys often got NO points unless they went on to win the overall stallion/mare at the show -- the Grands, Supremes, etc. Then they earned points. So people who feel SHOW WINS are the main criteria in their search really need to do the homework to know and understand just what it takes to get where they are and how impressive the win really was :bgrin

"Took FIRST under all four judges" and only one in class isn't a biggie -- just sounds it! That same horse then taking SUPREME at the show, is a biggie, if a decent sized show with reputable contenders.

And when you first begin to show -- who knows what's good!? I didn't!!! :bgrin It can be confusing.

 

[txminipinto]

But more on the lines, there are some shows/areas ext....where a 3rd out of just 6 horses could be quite impressive; I mean even at several of our shows in Area Five that a class may have 6 horses and I'd venture to beat 5 of them will be top ten in a huge class at Nationals..........

Everyone should be proud of EVERY ribbon they bring home, as it takes a lot of time and effort to achieve it, strive for better each show.

AMEN ERICA!! That's one thing that I find it hard for exhibititors in this area to understand. We show in Area V......the toughest competition in the nation in my personal opinion on all circuits (AMHR, ASPC, and AMHA). Yes, I'm a little disappointed if I don't get in the championship classes, but I know when I get to the National level show we'll be up there in the placings. This is a tough crowd to climb to the top in!

:

:

 

[Jill]

AMEN ERICA!! That's one thing that I find it hard for exhibititors in this area to understand. We show in Area V......the toughest competition in the nation in my personal opinion on all circuits (AMHR, ASPC, and AMHA). Yes, I'm a little disappointed if I don't get in the championship classes, but I know when I get to the National level show we'll be up there in the placings. This is a tough crowd to climb to the top in!

:

:

Well said, Carin. I'm not in Area 5, but some of my horses are or have previously been. Reading the names on the class rosters, I couldn't tell you the number of times I've thought "wow..." and been very proud at how my guys stacked up against "those famous horses". So many top farms and trainers are in your region!

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We sold a mare that we said shouldn't really be bred (she had an off bite) but they went ahead and bred her anyways. I got an email later that stated her foal was National Champion Weanling gelding, she was so proud....

He was the only one in the class.

:

Ah, well....

But I agree, if the horse isn't FIRST, s/he isn't the Champion.

Lucy

 

[txminipinto]

We sold a mare that we said shouldn't really be bred (she had an off bite) but they went ahead and bred her anyways. I got an email later that stated her foal was National Champion Weanling gelding, she was so proud....

He was the only one in the class.

:

Ah, well....

But I agree, if the horse isn't FIRST, s/he isn't the Champion.

Lucy

Now, I do have to say there is something to be said for those who have the guts to show up. I was a bit intimidated at my first Nationals until someone said this to me: "You've already beaten everyone who didn't have the b**** to show up!" I have different opinion now on those one horse classes...... :bgrin You can't help it if no one else wants to compete against you!

: By the way, I was PROUD to take home 2 Top Tens at that Nationals!

 

[Boinky]

Ok i'll admit.. i got 6/7 in the Fine harness pairs or more class (i went tandem with my boys).. On the "look up" it actually says there was like 15 in the class..but i think they counted each horse in the multi's individually..to an untrained eye you probably could get away with saying there were alot int he class..LOL

I do say these horses are top ten. In MOST INSTANCES i'd probably blow that off if i got a low placing in a small class..but i'm darnED proud of that 6/7 in my multi hitch class... firstly because i DIDN'T come in dead last..and SECONDLY in my opinion ANYONE that is able to drive more than one horse has some skill! Everyone in that class in my opinion has every right to be proud that they can do what they did. There's NOT a ton of people in that class because there AREN'T that many people that can drive a multi hitch.

Ontop of that it was also the first time i'd ever shown tandem. My hitch is two stallions that don't particularly like each other (hehe yes we've had a few funny moments with that "issue" here at home!!) and i hadn't been driving them tandem for a very long time before nationals. ..... Just the fact that we went in and made it around alive was exciting to me (no seriously i'd never have taken them in if i REALLY felt we were going to die.. but i wasn't sure they'd be paying much attention with other horses in the ring ect). when it all comes down to it i AM honest about how many were in the class.. I may not put it out there that it was a 6/7 placing but if someone were to ask or if i'm talking with people i know i almost always admit to it! lol but i'm very proud of that top ten just having DONE it.....

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

I think if you are pinned in any the classes offered at the AMHR Nationals in ANY type of class, whether its halter, driving, costume, color, ect. it is still an accomplishment, with having tons of work involved and something to be proud of since you are competing against the best around. Everyone has their own opinion and I do agree that alot of people don't know the proper use of the terms of "Championships" given when they advertise.

 

[Boinky]

oh yeah..another thing i've noticed which i think leads to a bit of the confusion is ...... The ribbons say "champion" on them in the top ten. Actually i didn't look at the 06 ribbons to see.. but I got the 2001 ribbons that my stallion won when i purchased him and they said "CHAMPION" on them in BIG letters down the front.. then it said the placing in little letters at the bottom! Wheni saw them i thought that was nuts since i've shown big horses all my life and had never seen a ribbon say "champion" on them when you weren't First place or reserve!

 

[alphahorses]

oh yeah..another thing i've noticed which i think leads to a bit of the confusion is ...... The ribbons say "champion" on them in the top ten.

I had someone tell me that too when I was looking at a horse advertised as a "National Champion" and couldn't find a record of that Championship (a top 10, but no championship). I asked the advertiser about it and they told me it was on the ribbon so the association recognized top 10 as a championship.

I always walk away from these sales because it makes me wonder what else is being misrepresented about the horse.

:

I have purchased 2 horses who had earned National Top 10's before I bought them (3rd and 5th) and I agree with those who have already stated that it is still an incredible accomplishment that owners should be proud of! :aktion033:

Sometimes people seem almost applogetic when they tell you their horse was "only" top 10. Maybe if everyone would brag more about our "top 10's" rather than being worried - even ashamed! - that that they were not 1st, those top 10's would be more valued by our buyers!

:

 

[Fred]

To even get a ribbon at nationals is a great accomplishment. A lot of people go and get nothing. A top ten is nothing to sneeze at, just when you advertise put what the horse did. Linda

 

[LisaB Ozark]

How do you correctly state futurity wins at the AMHR Nationals. In 2005 one of my fillies got reserve in her weanling class. Is this correct

Reserve National Futurity Champion

or

Reserve Champion in Futurity

or ?

Also how do you state your top ten winnings in one of the futurity classes?

Thanks, Lisa

 

[Jill]

I think both are correct as well as Reserve National Champion being correct (imo). That's a wonderful accomplishment -- congrats!

Personally, I state top 10's in the classes (whatever they are) as National Top Ten (Five or Three). Same for National Champion or Reserve National Champion for 1st or 2nd place in any class at the Nationals

I don't "qualify" it by spelling out the class but would be ready to on the spot if asked, and if advertising a sale horse, would probably be more explicit.

 

[HGFarm]

Lisa B- I would take 'Reserve Champion in Futurity' as not very specific. What futurity? A local one? A large area show? It doesnt say who sponsored it and what futurity they won. I would state it was National Reserve Champion Futurity or Reserve Champion at National Futurity or something to indicate what show it was affiliated with. I agree, any ribbon is an accomplishment!