Natural Breeding/Management can Work!

[Rootin Tootin]

:aktion033: I just read an incredible post by miniwhiny (spelling?). What a wonderful topic and how very lucky to have the opportunity to observe horses in the WILD!!!!!

I am sure this particular topic can be very controversial. I recently posted an announcement on the free sale board announcing the update of my website. I also mentioned that I had a 1 year old Filly for sale (regretably) due to the fact that my stallion had rejected and was becoming increasingly aggessive with her.

I received an email from an unknown source informing me that I really shouldn't be running my yearling with a stallion and for the health/safety I should re-consider.

At first I was very offended to have received this email. Then I contemplated the reason for the email and what people may perceive as acceptable or unacceptable breeding management. I certainly don't want to offend anyone and do not make claim that my method's are the best, but they have worked and that speaks volumes for me.

I truly truly believe that if at all possible horses should be let to be what they are... horses. I love to watch them interact in the herd heiarchy and have learned more from watching this interaction than I ever have by reading books, etc.

My stallion runs with his band year round. He is not seperated but for grooming, farrier and health maintenance. The mares cry and distress while he is away (well....most of them!) My mares foal unassisted in their pasture (get this...with the stallion!!!) Yes, just like they have done successfully for many more years than we have occupied this planet.

Now I feel very fortunate in that I have the pasture space to allow such a natural setting. They have adequate forage and roaming terrain so that a foaling mare can do what she does naturally in the wild.. Remove herself from the herd during foaling.....and then with amazing little fanfare, re-join the herds edge after the miracle event. I do involve myself with the care of their health and love and interaction, but I feel these are bonuses for the herd and not hinderances to their natural way of life.

I have observed the stallion interacting with the babies and at times marvel that he is calmer and more forgiving than the foals own dam at times. Stallions in a setting that is natural and not stressful to the herd order seem to take on much parental responsibility. I can't speak for all, but mine is gentle with the foals and even in situations where he is "herding," he seems to take on a gentler manner with the little ones. All in all, my stallion seems content and adjusted, which from what studies have proved, lends to his calm behavior in the herd and with people.

Well...thank you for letting me post. I hope that everyone has a wonderful weekend!

 

[Songcatcher]

It is a free country and a person has a right to do as they choose, but I would never go that natural.

I provide hay and grain. I worm mine regularly. I give vacinations. And, I would NEVER purposely allow a yearling filly to run with a stallion. There is too much risk involved.

 

[Rootin Tootin]

It is a free country and a person has a right to do as they choose, but I would never go that natural.

I provide hay and grain. I worm mine regularly. I give vacinations. And, I would NEVER purposely allow a yearling filly to run with a stallion. There is too much risk involved.

: Yes, free country. I do respect the opinions of others though, thank you.

RTCR has operated this way for the past 6 years and I have NEVER had a problem. I think we OverManage our horses at times. That is o.k. An ounce of prevention can prevent a pound of cure....tis true.

: Just to clarify...My horses are my friends and are not so natural that I ignore ANY of their needs. They lack for nothing that they could desire and/or require.

 

[Rootin Tootin]

I have taken some excerpts from various Equine experts to help defend my approach to equine herd/breeding management. Some of these are only opinions. Others are actual studies performed by Equine Analyst Groups in which many performed studies on "wild horse" in their natural herd environment.

"One way of allowing stallions to behave normally while minimizing the threat of harm is by keeping them in a natural setting-in which mares, stallions, and offspring are allowed to commingle-as much as possible."

"While most domestic horses breed successfully under intense domestic management, there is a considerable amount of sexual behavior dysfunction, and/or sexual behavior related management and performance problems in horses managed under these conditions."

"Under natural social systems, a harem stallion interacts continuously year round with his mares and offspring. The harem stallion also is quite attentive and gentle with his offspring. It appears that in free-running conditions, the harem stallion performs a good portion of the parental care"1

1. American Association of Equine Practitioners

Sue McDonnell, PhD, Research Assistant Professor in Medicine and Preproduction.

Just some information I found interesting~

 

[Ojai Minis]

I personlly think this is pretty cool!!! I would love to have this kind of enviroment.

Liz V.

 

[Anne]

This is a prime example of why I no longer automatically refer "new" mini owners with idealistic ideas to this forum.

This is a wonderful place to be most of the time, but such wonderful information is so easily misconstrued and passed along as a "cool idea'.

There is nothing "cool" IMHO about running a yearling filly with a stallion. I have seen the results.

I think you need to reread the wonderful post by miniwhinny.

I did not read anywhere in that post that running stallions in a domestic situation with yearling fillies was a good idea.

 

[disneyhorse]

Unfortunately domesticated horses are NOT wild horses. We have the ability and RESPONSIBILITY to provide the best, most educated and informed care that we can.

In the wild, WHO CARES if a young mare is bred and foals at age two? She could die, her baby could die, but it's just survival of the fittest and luck. Wild horses are there to feed the predators and be part of the food chain.

Our domesticated horses have the luxury of shelter, health care, and controlled reproduction to optimize the offspring with regard to the health of the mare.

I definitely agree that stallions need to live social lives. I have no problem with stallions living with their mares and babies. However, we have the ability to prevent young mares from being bred, and inbreeding indiscriminately unlike the ''wild'' and ''nature''. It is NOT natural for a poor stallion to be locked in a small box stall all their lives and be forbidden to ever touch another horse. I know many, many stallions like that.

My own stallion(s) live in their own stall(s) but always are turned out and allowed to be social with other horses of all ages, from foal to adult mare and stallion.

Extremes on EITHER end of the spectrum should be avoided in my opinion.

AND to top it all off... registered miniature horses must have parents that are THREE years of age when they are born for a REASON.

Andrea

 

[Stacy Score]

While it may seem "natural" and "cool" to run a stallion with HIS band - running him with yearling fillies will eventually lead to a pregnancy - while some may be able to foal out at age 2 - it is not always the case. I know from experience just how devastating it can be - my stallion got in with the yearling band and bred one of my little girls, although I did not know it until she was nearly 9 mos and it was too late to abort - almost lost her during delivery, did lose the foal of course - many thousands of dollars and tears later she recovered and has since gone on to become a great broodmare and mother. I would NEVER again risk the wellbeing of one of my yearlings to any stallion. JMO

Stacy

 

[virginia]

I too love the natural way of being a horse. However, as minis have never been in the wild, I feel there are limits to Natural. My stallion is in with herd and it is a wonderful thing to see how natural he is with his foals and his mares. Here comes the but....there is too much inherent danger involved with a mini mare giving birth. So my mares wear Halter Monitors and are put in a stall under camera during the night. Someone is watching them 24/7. Once the foal is born and deemed healthy and has a day or two to get his bearings, then mom and baby are reunited with herd, stallion and all. It works great. Now here's the 2nd but....any filly is removed before Spring comes and the mares start having heats. She is put into a mare herd and does her growing and learning there. I see no need to take the chance that dad might breed her. Maybe he wouldn't but why take the chance.

I am not knocking the Natural way of doing things, it may work just great for some people. I'm just a little more cautious and don't want to take unnecessary chances.

Ginny StP

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I realize that is your opinion and respect it for that.. however our horses are not wild, no different then dogs not needing to run in packs to be happy.

In many cultures it is perfectly acceptable for a grown man to have relations with children may work wonders for them.. sure doesnt cut it around here.

Sure many can say years ago it was great for a 14 yr old girl to get pregnant and start a family however.. the difference is today there are OPTIONS just as there are options with our horses.

I am not saying my way is the only way however it is the only way for me. NOt being there for one mare when she was foaling.. and comig on the situation to late to do much was devestating to me. I will NEVER forget the pain that mare suffered and my guilt for not being responsible enough to make sure I was there for her at a time when she needed me most. That day (although to late to save that mare and foal) I bought cameras, breeder alerts and dont leave my house period when mares are close. That is what works for me and for my horses.

Again the "natural " method works for some - however my horses would not be happy they enjoy there creature comforts in fact pretty much demand them and I am more then happy to oblige.

 

[Rootin Tootin]

: O.K. - Please re-read my message, my web, my post.

I run my stallion with my herd, including babies not because I think it's cool or charming or "wild". I do it because I have first hand seen the benefits associated with doing so. This may not be possible or acceptable for many as tradition leans to the conservation right of keeping our animals "penned up" and "safe". I no where in my questions, opinions or practices condoned the breeding of a 1 year old filly! There is a reason she is offered for sale and a reason she is not with the herd and an even more important reason that I posted her in the first place.

I totally understand the emotions and opinions and feedback, just please understand my intent was NOT to promote underage breeding of any animal.

The very important responsibility of properly caring for and ensuring the safety of animals is beared by each invidividual owner. Proper education, common sense and caring are all imporant and taken into consideration.

Let us not judge a portion of the book without reading all chapters.

Thanks everyone....It was good feedback.

:saludando:

 

[Nichcole]

I to wish my horses had the chance to run on a bigger piece of property. Every weekend I let all my big horses in to a 3 acre are and let them run , play and be horses. The one thing I have learned in the horse world big and small is that everyone has thier opinon and the way they do things. You have to take it all in and filter out what works best for you and your animals.

 

[nootka]

Y'know there's good points about keeping your horses as close to natural as possible, and then you can argue that minis are not really all that natural as far as we've intervened a lot in this "breed" anyway, but then again, we need to intervene with common sense.

We can't always leave it up to THEM to decide what is in their best interests, or safest, or even healthiest. Most animals are like small children in that they will eat things that aren't good for them (that we know thanks to science and past experience), go places that are not good for them, or any combination of problematic situations may arise.

WE as their caretakers, are there to help minimize the risk, to manage them with our experience and knowledge. We may not always know we are doing something wrong until we have a problem, one dies, one becomes sick, or forbid, we lose a lot of them, or their behavior goes off. So we think we have the "right" answer up to that point, and then we modify our ideas, be they radical or just ill-conceived.

Running a stallion, or stallions, with a herd is a nice idea, and I myself like to let my stallions live with their mares and foals. BUT, I would remove a filly from the herd as soon as she has weaned from her dam, and likely at or before 8 months of age if not sooner. It just makes sense to me as my horses don't have to live in this wild situation, which has its downfalls as well as its benefits.

I think my version, which involved (when I had a stallion), him getting to be with his girls, and me taking the young fillies out when they were weaned, as well as any colts that began having "issues" with dad, or that he had issue with, is probably the best of both worlds. My stallion gets to have his cake, and his daughters don't have to deal with him harassing them one way or the other. It's my responsibility to control the risk, as well as offer the benefit of social life. Oh, yeah, he was not dysfunctional at all...hehe four foals (3 fillies/1 colt) on the ground and I would bet more on the way next year.

Letting the stallion decide which of his daughters he wants to breed or which he runs off seems irresponsible to me, and so no matter what size property I had, I would not choose to manage mine that way, nor would I let my mares foal where I could not see them or immediately assist them if they needed it. Outside is fine, as long as I am nearby/watching.

My horses spend as much time as humanly possible OUTSIDE, but I do know when and where to step in.

Enjoy your horses, it sounds like they have a very enjoyable life.

Hopefully noone gets any ill-advised ideas from any of this.

Liz M.

 

[Rootin Tootin]

All these responses were actually very interesting....informative....many educated.

 


As well as hoping that no one gets ill-conceived ideas, let us all acknowledge and appreciate that like many have pointed out....We all as animal "owners" have varied conceptions of what is "acceptable"

 


Just like to some dog owners the thought of "cropping" a puppies ears is unthinkable and horrible, whereas to some this procedure is totally within the acceptable realm of breed specifics.

 


Just like to some the thought of raising animals for food (i.e.. chickens, beef, etc.) is not only acceptable but a neccessity for putting food on their table...however to some this is barbaric and cruel and not to be tolerated.

 


Just like to some the thought that if you feed an animal and provide it with minimal shelter that is enough, wheareas others feel strongly that there is more...health, caretaking, love, respect.

 

 


Opinions, just that. Let us make sure when we express them we are clear in our protrayal that it is our "opinion" and not expressed in such a manner as to imply it is the only way and the "right" way.

 


Like so many subjects and matters that relate to animal care, we can not isolate the topic to not include the whole picture of how one does or does not properly care for their animals.

 


I love animals. To me they have souls and are more than just "pets." I believe this and live in this mentality in my aspects of ownership.

 


To any that are "new" to horse ownership, please do not misinterpret my herd management. It works for me but has taken research, proper farm layout, family involvement, the right herd and observations to determine that it is indeed the most reasonable, functional and harmonious situation for "my" little ones.

 


With that said, thank you again all.... I hope to make new friends along this endeavor and so in that token of understanding... well wishes to all.

 

[Ashley]

Well I will stand up and say I was the one that emailed about her. I wasnt not rude in any aspect in my mind, other then simply asking her to reconsider it for the health and saftey of the filly.

As for condoning it or not, if you are letting a yearling run with a stallion you are allowing her to be bred. I would be very suprised if she wasnt already in foal. A stallion just doesnt breed a horse because she is to young. All they know is that they are supposed to breed when the mares are in heat, and just because she is to young doenst me the stallion is going to think twice about breeding her.

 

[nootka]

Yep, there are many methods of management of anything. It's just that some methods are easily confused with romantic idealism, which often gets out of hand because it isn't tempered with enough sensible realism to know when enough's enough, and when it isn't working.

An argument can be made for and against anything under the sun. We do the best we can, and learn in the process, hopefully not to the detriment of those in our care.

I did see Ashley's original email and it was very gently suggestive and not offensive at all.

I would also like to add about considering the

Like so many subjects and matters that relate to animal care, we can not isolate the topic to not include the whole picture of how one does or does not properly care for their animals.

part of your text.
I think any reasonable person has to adjust small factors and portions of their "program" to ensure the success of the "whole" from time to time. For example, for a long time, I fed my horses on locally grown hay. My vet suggested it might be causing my mare to sneeze, and so I switched to Orchard Grass. I did not change but one small aspect of my horse care program, it did not mean I loved them less or more, because they were eating a more expensive hay, it meant that I was changing something because I understood that that one choice of MINE was possibly affecting their health.

If you saw a stallion breeding a yearling filly, or trying to breed say a ten month old filly, what would you change about your current program? What if you found one of your yearling colts injured or deceased due to violence from a fight w/his sire? Would you then adjust your program? Or if your mare, in the days before she foaled, was bred by the stallion and caused an infection which killed the foal (these are possibilities), would you change, or just accept that risk/loss for the benefits, or might you just change in order to still reap the benefits of your program, yet minimize the risk?

I guess what I am trying to say is that for most of us, the situation you present is fraught with more than one type of risk. Not saying it's right or wrong, as having horses at all is risky, heck living is risky, and we all do it anyway. We all just grow and learn and do what we feel is best. I do wish you luck and success.

(OK, am I hallucinating or was this thread locked earlier today...?)

Liz

 

[Rootin Tootin]

Yes Liz...if those things happened I indeed would re-evaluate. None of them has happened and bear in mind the reason my original post was even read was due to the fact that I had removed my filly from the herd. So please all, do not judge me too harsh as yes..I did/have taken action.

As for the email : "As a yearling your filly really should not be running with a stallion anyway. Please reconsider for the health of your filly. " These words initially brought on defensive feelings. I don't think she was attacking me. I told her so and thanked her for her response.

I am not an expert and find that forums such as this can lend much help/information/insight into various topics. That is the reason I read them. Too much focus on the yearling with stallion issue though. My main herd focus is on continous co-mingling of stallion, mares and foals, but my foals are usually sold prior to their 1 year birthday and so....hmmmm.... I guess I should have been more clear so as not to invite such harsh jugement.

I assure you all (because I know how much we love our critters) that I take well care of them. My facility may not be multi-million dollar status, but it is very much a wealth of love and labor and attention. Rest assured.

"Simple modification of husbandry to better model the natural social environment of horses, while still considering safety of animals and handlers, is often immediately effective in overcoming as well as in preventing behavior problems."

I will, based on all your very valued posts, continue to evaluate, re-evaluate, monitor and consider the herd management currently in-place on my farm.

Thank you much!

:

 

[nootka]

I will, based on all your very valued posts, continue to evaluate, re-evaluate, monitor and consider the herd management currently in-place on my farm

Basically, that's what most of us do, but also go with a good dose of your own experience, the experience and expertise of vets/farriers and other professionals.

Good luck,

Liz

 

[Miniv]

I too love the natural way of being a horse. However, as minis have never been in the wild, I feel there are limits to Natural. My stallion is in with herd and it is a wonderful thing to see how natural he is with his foals and his mares. Here comes the but....there is too much inherent danger involved with a mini mare giving birth. So my mares wear Halter Monitors and are put in a stall under camera during the night. Someone is watching them 24/7. Once the foal is born and deemed healthy and has a day or two to get his bearings, then mom and baby are reunited with herd, stallion and all. It works great. Now here's the 2nd but....any filly is removed before Spring comes and the mares start having heats. She is put into a mare herd and does her growing and learning there. I see no need to take the chance that dad might breed her. Maybe he wouldn't but why take the chance.

I am not knocking the Natural way of doing things, it may work just great for some people. I'm just a little more cautious and don't want to take unnecessary chances.

Ginny StP

I second the motion........Yes, we manage things with our horses so they are as natural as possible, BUT, our minis are NOT wild, but domesticated. So we basically do what Ginny posted above as well....... for their own health and well being.

MA

 

[rabbitsfizz]

With Miniature Horses there is NO "natural" only in as far as they are Equines.

There are a number of basic behavioural patterns in wild (Not "Feral") Equines, at least five have been "gleaned "from various sources.

Miniature Horses are from Shetland root stock, without fail, and I have first hand experience of Shetland "natural" behaviour- where's Wally when you need her- I shall go and dig her out if I can and get her on here- anyhoo in the meantime, Shetlands will keep the stallion with the herd all year round, and the herds are small.

The surplus stallions form a bachelor band(s)

In spring the stallion will drive out all yearlings, fillies and colts.

This is fine if the fields are huge, it is life threatening if the field is three acres, as mine was (This incident is what caused me to start researching behavioural patterns!!)

The yearling filly in question was nearly killed, her dam was nearly hurt protecting her- thank God I was there!!

So, if you leave a yearling filly with a herd one of two things will happen- she will be driven out- which is OK if the field is large enough, or she will be bred.

If your fields are 40-60 acres you should not have a problem (seriously now, no sarcasm here, some people on here really do have fields this size, remember!!)

Mustangs are a bit different, I shall referr back to my research as I really did not go into Mustangs, Brumbies or the NZ Ferals- we have SO many feral ponies here I stuck with what I had.

BUT the feral ponies we have are the source of the Mini, not the Mustangs and although all these references are fascinating, none (mine, obviously, included)should be taken as a gospel for mini care.

As has been said, our little horses are unique and human manufactured.

Although I enjoy watching the behaviour of my "wolves by the fireside" there is NO way my Dobes could run with a Wolf pack, or even communicate properly- dogs are domesticated and bred for a purpose, just as horses now are.

If you have found that, so far, running a stallion with a band all year and not removing yearling fillies works for you, well done.

It is not something I would recommend anyone should try to do.