Need your feedback - NEW AMHA Program

[TyeeRanch]

I am completely for this idea. But do have to add in my two cents worth.

I think to hold separate shows for these horses is not the answer. As Mark said, there are already so many show dates, etc that it is hard for normal people to get to all that they want to already, let alone adding more weekends/cost in. I believe that adding in these "stock" or "QH" type classes at the regular AMHA shows would be most beneficial. By making sure that the Judges know the difference between their types, you will eliminate the need for multiple shows. For those that show at the pinto shows, there is always a stock/hunter and saddle/pleasure type that is offered. The same Judges judge both of these styles, but know the differences between the two.

I have grown up in a stock horse background, showing western pleasure and stock halter horses. However, I appreciate the look of both types of minis and would love to see the more QH type have a chance in the ring as well. It was said earlier that these type of horses tend to do better in the performance divisions. I agree with that and agree that there is definitely a place for both to excel. I started showing minis when I was ten years old, and quit about ten years ago. Just now coming back into the mini world, I see the huge change since the last National show that I went to (2000). Though I love the Arabian look, I do see some horses getting too narrow, too refined, etc and hate to think what they will look like in another ten years if we continue to breed more refined to more refined.

On another note, I think that the QH/Stock/Sport division needs to be clear. I have issues seeing Single Pleasure horses winning Country Pleasure simply because they are the flashiest in the class, and would hate to see the most refined/arab type win in this new class simply because its "the norm". I think that making it clear what is ideal in this class, and penalizing anything that is either too stocky or too refined is the only thing that will keep it real. Personally I would love to see a great representative of the QH in mini form. And I bet these horses would excel in the new Classic Pleasure Driving classes

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Two sets of shows are just going to cost twice as much. There are already 2" class divisions of every class... adding a second set of shows or a second set of judges is just going to cost everyone more.

Type classes? Still open to subjective interpretations and opinions of judges despite class specifications (like the previously mentioned blurred lines between driving horse styles.)

Want to encourage participation and expand membership? Lower fees! Around here it is twice as expensive to enter an AMHA show as it is an AMHR show, and there is less than half the competition! So, the ribbon means "less", since you beat fewer horses (or none!) yet cost you twice as much. Not only that, but if your horse goes 1/2" too tall, you can still show AMHR, but you're out of AMHA - despite spending more to register the foal in AMHA compared to AMHR.

I'm not "bashing" either registry as I register and show with both - but as far as VALUE goes - at least in SoCal we get much more bang for our AMHR bucks than our AMHA ones. And in these economic times, when people are looking for value or having to give up the luxuries of life such as even owning horses, let alone showing them... I hardly think that a whole new set of shows would have much value added for the rank and file. (and the rank and file is the majority of horse owners!)

 

[Julie/Azariah]

I am reading all of your responses and taking it all in.

I cautiously respond, as I need to think more about these ideas.

Coming from the big horse world~~ where we would have 2 rings running at 4 H events (an English Ring and a Western Ring) and at open shows (Hunter/Jumper ring/performance classes and flat class ring) it would make sense to me that if we would consider something like this it would require more judges per show and an extra ring (which most of the facilities we have shown at have had). The problem comes when horses from both "types" might be entered in performance classes so the challenge for show organizers is to figure out a way to avoid as many conflicts with scheduling of classes as possible ~that is tricky, but is done within other show associations. All new ideas that come to the "trial" stage require countless hours of work by a dedicated group of people even before the "trial" happens.

Just thinking aloud~~

I do feel that we have a large number of members who would like to show, but do not, simply because their horses are not the type that the judges pick...though their breeding program may produce horses with lovely correct conformation.

As I join the Board of Directors this week, one of my personal goals is to help broaden the participation of our membership (as I understand AMHA this is one of the goals of the association...to include all AMHA horse owners...not be exclusive)

I look forward to seeing where this idea takes us~~~

keeping my eyes and ears open :O)

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I really like the idea! However I'm not tasked with implementing it!lol It, like almost everything I guess, will have its challenges when it comes to actually putting into place. But again, I personally think it's a great idea and I DO believe it would increase entries at the shows and then the trickle down effect would be more value placed on those horses which means a better market for breeders.

I do not like the idea of having it be a different show. I do NOT think that is a good idea and it would defeat the purpose in my opinion. And yes, the judges would need proper training/information, but that's the case even now. Show results would be VASTLY different even today if all the them (the judges) adhered to the rule book as closely as possible - while knowing there will always be some subjectivity.

I'm interested in hearing more as news becomes available. I think it's worth exploring.

Thanks to those that are putting their own time and effort into this.

 

[mydaddysjag]

I come from a big horse background, so have shown many shows that have multiple rings running at once. As far as scheduling classes so that you have fewer "tack changes" between them and scheduling conflicts, how about something like running halter classes for the senior horses first, then while the junior horses and whatnot are being judged, the senior horses can get prepared for their performance classes? A weanling - two year old is not going to be in a driving class, so it may be best to have their halter classes as the last sets of halter classes before the performance events. I hope that made sense.

 

[Katiean]

I think the 2 ring option would have it's problems. I have both types of horses. I do my training. I also show with a youth that I must be there when she is in the ring. There are just the two of us to groom, and show these horses. How do I show my Stock horses in one ring when my refined horses are going on in the other ring? Besides, wouldn't it just be the halter classes that would need to be added? Don't they already have a "DRAFT" class in driving (of which I have yet to see an entry)?

 

[JWC sr.]

Sheri,

I want to thank the committee and AMHA for being pro-active and working to increase the use and places for members to use/show the respective horses.

My comments are as follows:

1. I like the idea of the new division and I think it can work if handled properly.

2. One of the keys will be declaration of the horses type for the upcoming year by a certain date, in the past we have had enough problems with height requirements and pushing horsing down in classes when they could not compete in a taller class by some people. Creating fiasco's and controversy at a lot of the Regional and World shows in the past.

So right from the get go simply state that if a horse is shown in either division it must show in that division for the entire show year. Like wise if a horse ever measures into a say 32+" class it cannot show in a smaller class later in the year, forcing measurement to be correct thru out the year with less problems at the Regional or World shows.

3. Name it what you will in the beginning, the division will be looked down on by some "in the beginning". But with that said. I think it will gain momentum each year and will be just fine. Participation will increase as long as folks can be assured that cross overs within any given year will not be allowed.

4. The shows need to be run in conjunction with each other if at all possible, so as increase exposure of the exhibitors to the new division. To ask clubs and or exhibitors to do a separate show would more than likely be a killer to the division.

5. I know this may make the shows a little longer, but it would be worth it in at least the beginning while you are trying to gain support for the division. Possibly do some things to speed up the show such as placing the class on the side of the ring next to the stands in a partitioned part of the ring, while the next class is in the ring starting to show etc.

As a side note, I can see it now. Farms with multiple horses will be trying to become the first farm to produce World Grand Champions in the separate divisions. How cool of an advertising campaign could you build around that one. LOL

I am sure I will think of some more, but those are my immediate thoughts. Good luck with this and again thanks to AMHA and the committee for being progressive in the thinking.

 

[wcr]

John has some very valid points.

This is very trying times for everyone in this economy and I have made numerous posts that the registries need to think outside the box and keep the members active and the limited dollars coming in. Horses are a luxury and when people are just trying to pay the mortgage and put food on the table and keep the bills paid, the showing and registration will be one of the first things to go. I applaud AMHA for the effort to keep horses registered by waving the temp to perm fees so horses don't lose their papers now that times are tough.

Taking a good look at the stock type horse(which IS the majority) and finding ways to bring them back into the showring is an excellent idea. I think by going so much to the refined, arab type, AMHA is losing the stock type to CDE where these type horses excel. There is a boom in CDE events and that is money out of AMHA pockets.

I don't think 2 different shows are financially sound. We need to think of ways to accommodate both types in one show. With attendance down at shows it places to much burden on the clubs to bankroll 2 shows that may not make money. 2 sets of judges, 2 sets of ribbons, volunteers to run the show, 2 showground rentals ect. The list is endless. For the exhibitors it is 2 sets of stall rentals, maybe hotel rooms, food costs, gas costs. You get the point.

Why do we need to hire two sets of judges for these shows? A stock type judge and a arab type judge? Many of the judges we use are carded in many different registries. What comes up time and again (reread just this post and you see what I mean) is that judges don't judge to the type of class before them. Why do they only look to the refined horse and not see the merits of the stockier horse or misplace the horses in the type of driving class they are judging? I think AMHA needs to look into additional training for the judges and stewards and hold them accountable when they consistently judge outside the norm. But this is a whole nother topic.

Kudos to AMHA for having the foresight to start this committee. It will take a lot of brainstorming and hard work to make this work but the fact that they are willing to give it a try is a step in the right direction for the mini horse industry.

 

[walkermini]

I am fairly new to Miniatures, came from a big horse background and have yet to actually show my miniatures due to my work schedule (I work weekends). But, I have goals to show in the future, and the majority of my Minis are not the "Arabian replicas" I see in the magazines...I do feel for the most part my horses would be competitive as far as correct conformation, but they arent the extremely refined type thats winning at the National level. Soooo, I would love for my guys to have a possibility of winning! Therefore, I am for a division such as this.

LIke others, I think it will take some thought to make it work. I also agree that adding more shows would probably not be the best idea. I would also like to suggest that instead of having "Arabian" and "stock" divisions, there be something less restrictive, such as "light" and "other". I have a few horses that dont really fit into the Arabian or stock type, they look more like small Thoroughbreds or light Warmbloods, somewhere between the two types of Arabian and stock. I would love to show these horses in the future, but I dont think they would be competitive in either division if the divisions were specifically geared to just arabian type and stock type.

 

[sedeh]

I think this is a great idea. There are a lot of mini owners out there that don't compete because their minis don't fit the "Arab" look mold. I don't think having seperate shows is a good idea though. Most shows are having difficulty getting enough competitors to make it profitable as it is.

Targetsmom hit all the points I would make spot on. I show Pinto also and they have seperate divisions for saddle type and stock type and it works well.

 

[palsminihorses]

I think this is a wonderful idea!! I, too, came from a 'big horse' background and used to show Appaloosas in my younger days.

I agree with everything that John Cherry mentioned, and I can't wait to see where this goes!

Pam C.

 

[~Lisa~]

Julie I think it is a fantastic idea and love that you use the LB board to get an idea of what some members might want or think!

I am not sure though why 2 rings would be needed? Seems to me it would be more of a halter type of issue then a performance issue ? Why not start with adding a halter division and seeing how the that goes

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Taking a good look at the stock type horse(which IS the majority) and finding ways to bring them back into the showring is an excellent idea. I think by going so much to the refined, arab type, AMHA is losing the stock type to CDE where these type horses excel. There is a boom in CDE events and that is money out of AMHA pockets.

I would also like to suggest that instead of having "Arabian" and "stock" divisions, there be something less restrictive, such as "light" and "other". I have a few horses that dont really fit into the Arabian or stock type, they look more like small Thoroughbreds or light Warmbloods, somewhere between the two types of Arabian and stock. I would love to show these horses in the future, but I dont think they would be competitive in either division if the divisions were specifically geared to just arabian type and stock type.

What CDE recognizes is a horse who is built to perform. That means solid muscle, strong conformation and good haunches like a stock horse might have but for the upper levels it also means good length of arched neck, clean throatlatch, suppleness and free movement; things I don't think of a typical stock horse as necessarily having. (My apologies to stock horse afficionados, I come from an Arab background.

)

I'm concerned that much as the "Western Country Pleasure" label created a specific (and unintended) stereotype for AMHR's new division, calling a new AMHA halter division "Stock" may do the same thing. I don't WANT a horse who looks and moves like a QH anymore than I want one that looks like an Arabian in miniature. The miniature sport horse many CDE and recreational drivers prefer would not fit either type and would still be out of luck.

I think the suggested labels above would suit much better and I might further propose that the rules for showing in the "Other" division be changed to allow showing in various type styles such as with hunter braids and an in-hand bridle for sport type, stock halters for the more QH type, and perhaps even draft gear for a horse who looked like a mini Belgian. After all, the fine cable halters currently used are copied from how Arabs are shown- what's wrong with showing horses who look like other breeds in the same way their larger cousins would be turned out? This might add considerable appeal for those who have down-sized from their breed of choice for physical or financial reasons and would allow a broader marketing appeal for the modern miniature as well as opportunities for more horses to show.

I am not sure though why 2 rings would be needed? Seems to me it would be more of a halter type of issue then a performance issue ? Why not start with adding a halter division and seeing how the that goes?

Agreed.

Leia

 

[targetsmom]

I think the idea of creating a place for the stockier or more performance type minis is a great idea and I am all for bringing more people into the show ring. And of course, expanding the market for minis is a wonderful plan! But I am concerned that if this becomes just a duplicate of what AMHA already has with another name, all we will have done is given the big farms and trainers more classes to show their minis. One other thing I learned showing at Pinto shows is that by having ONE mini halter class, you tend to attract people with just a few minis. These are often people who just want to compete and have a good time. What I would most like to see is that this starts very small - maybe only one or a couple of halter classes at shows - and these minis can compete in the regular performance classes too. And then if AMHA wants to attract new people, do something like what AMHR does with its Triple Amateur Program and offer high point awards for each of two types of minis at each show (halter and performance to count but not necessarily Ammy). So you recognize and reward another type of mini without a whole lot of changes to local shows.

If the "other type" halter classes start getting too big, then you can always split them.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

First of all, I think this concept is really cool!

I agree with the other posters that question the need for separate shows for the separate divisions, at least in the beginning. That said, if the second division is created, it might be beneficial to alter the hardship show rules accordingly to allow exhibition shows for each division to be held in conjunction with complimentary events. For example, I know there are several established stock shows where an exhibition mini show for the new stock division would be well-received, and likewise I would think the light horse division would be better received at some of the multi-breed society shows. This might also be a way to encourage more AMHA showing opportunities in areas where there are currently none and simultaneously to promote each type of mini in the most appropriate market. Just a thought.

 

[Ronnie]

There may be some merit to this idea but I think it needs a lot of thought and a lot of input from people it will actually affect. Maybe a good resource would be to survey all of the participants at this years approved show to get their thoughts. While lots of people will have lots of thoughts I am afraid that many of them won’t actually be showing and therefore could have a negative impact on the ones that do. It is my hope that everyone would get involved in the show ring and if this would move us in that direction I am all for it. As to the majority of AMHA horses being stock type that may be true but I am not convinced the majority of breeders and exhibitors prefer the stock type, but rather that it is harder to achieve the more refined Arabian type. I believe the majority of people strive to breed for refinement but the majority of the results fall a little short. This is what makes the top end or “minority” stand out and why they are what is winning in the show ring. My concern is that if we go this direction we may indeed bring in some new people but at the same time loose as many or more who will feel we are going backwards and the end result would be no net gain in membership or show participation and a possible decline in the quality of the show horses. If as stated the majority of the horses in peoples barns and fields are the heavier stock type then turning our emphasis that way will not do as much to increase the value of that type horse since there are so many of them but will likely only reduce the value of what our market now values, the refined halter horse. The fact of the matter is that the judges set the standard, what they place is what people try to breed and show. While I am absolutely 100% in favor of moving AMHA forward I urge caution that while attempting to take a step forward we don’t wind up taking two backwards.

 

[Riverdance]

I love the idea, except for having two different shows. In many areas, having just one show is difficult, let alone two shows. Most clubs can not afford to have two different shows.

I would suggest that we have one day show of the Arabian style and the next day of the other style or mix the two styles in one show with different classes and different judges.

Some clubs may want to have two different shows and will as the entries start rising. Many breeders may be trying to breed the Arabian style, but will still get some of the more heavy set style, which will give them the chance if they want to, to show in both shows.

 

[roxy's_mom]

First, I would like to thank AMHA for trying to promote our breed whether it be the Arabian or heavier boned style/type. I think it is a great idea but along with alot of others here starting a new division or style/type class will take alot of time and consideration into this matter. I would be seriously interested to see how this turns out.

1.) I have been an AMHA member for the last 4.5 years not once in those years have there been any shows near me to attend! I would first like to see more shows near me. I live in Pennsylvania and do not have any AMHA shows even close to me to even considering attending. I would have to travel far out of state to even attend an AMHA show. The only shows I can attend are AMHR shows as they are the closest shows for me. From what I have seen, the cost of attending an AMHR is much cheaper than that of an AMHA show. If you are wanting more attendence at AMHA shows lower your fees, add more shows to areas that don't have any at all and you may end up with a good result.

I don't think that adding a whole other show along with different judges will help things. Start with just halter classes for this new division and see where it goes. If you have a big enough attendence for those classes then you know you are doing something right. Most of us that show those stockier type minis already do performance classes so by just adding the halter classes you may gain more exhibitors at your shows.

2.) I have those stockier type horses that you are looking to help promote. My horses are able to go out and show in a halter class but will not place against the current trend of Arabian type miniatures that are showing at the Regional and World level. Because of the current trend in halter my horses are better off showing in the performance classes,which is fine with me, but I would like to be able to go out and have a chance at a halter win even with that stockier type. In my opinion, and that's all it is, in order to encourage those of us that have those stockier type horses to show why not train/retrain the judges and stewards to FOLLOW THE RULE BOOK and judge on conformation and way of moving and NOT what the current trend is.

3.) Ask your members what they would want!! It may cost a some money but maybe send a survey/letter out proposing your idea to all the members and see what you get back. Then you will have a better idea as to whether it will work or not.

4.) I know that AMHA is mainly a height breed but what happens to those horses, who by chance, out grow their papers by 1/4"-1" even though their whole pedigree is small? They lose their papers and AMHA might lose money because their foals won't be able to be registered. If they are lucky they might be double registered and will still have AMHR papers. Hardshipping is the only way their foals would be able to be registered if they stay under 34". Why not do something for those horses that go over by just a little bit?

5.) If you want to keep your members happy keep your prices low on all things, from registry work to show fees.

Thank you again AMHA for taking the time to be concerned about how this WONDERFUL breed is going into the future!

Becky M.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

I think this is a wonderul idea as well. . .however I do not show with AMHA because for one the fees are just way too much for me to handle vs. AMHR and that is why I don't even bother with AMHA anymore - my wallet can't afford it!

Back on subject though - I really love the idea of promoting those stockier miniatures no matter what registry does it and I see it promoting different styles of horses appropriately.

On the though of horses that outgrow their papers. . .maybe AMHA could make a division that can no longer show with AMHA but doesn't lose it's papers? Call it the "Over Brood Stock Division" or something like that? And instead of having to hardship the foals, you just pay an additional fee to keep said horse that went "over" capable of having it's foals easily registered? Say $200 or something like that to keep the horse in the division - a one time fee? That way AMHA could not only keep a wider variety of horses but could also gain more income from those horses that went slightly over even though they have small breeding and produce small foals.

 

[Minxiesmom]

Good idea with some work. Just as there are several styles of driving horse, ie...park, open, country, and western/classic, so can there be more than one style of halter horse. The rules must be CLEAR to the judges and the judges must stick to the rules!

Another thought:

Pinto rewards the all around horse highly! Halter is a big part of that reward, so all Pinto Champions have to have a lot of halter points plus their performance points! A horse that can compete in ALL the classes is more valuable in my breed of choice, because of the rewards sought.

Provide the rewards, clarify the rules and they will come.