Newbies WAKE UP

[Blackwater Farm]

Being new to the miniature horse world myself I have to agree with this. I have my gelding and my mare and I am happy with just the two. Maybe someday if we can afford to buy some land of our own, we rent our farm now, I would like to have a few more but when I say a few I mean like no more than 5 and those will be for my own driving and showing pleasure. I have no desire to breed as there are many more people out there that are more qualified than I to handle such things. I would much rather buy one that is in need of a good, loving, forever home. IF, and I do mean IF, I ever decided to breed one of my future mares or buy a bred mare it would only be for me, not to sell. I have seen the "aftermath" of these backyard breeders who have a bunch of mares and stallions and they all just run around and do their thing and next year they have a bunch of $200 babies they cant sell. I love and care too much for my animals to think that they would ever wind up in a situation like that!

 

[HGFarm]

Yes, there are a few big farms that are still producing that many foals.... ridiculous. They end up in auctions, at sales (with all sorts of descriptive names for the sales). And I agree that just because they might be a well known, long time farm doesnt mean the quality is always there. I just never have believed in the quantity breeding of dozens to hopefully get one that might be decent - or just for mass volume to sell. I would rather look to buy from a farm that has a few very nice quality horses than from a farm that has 125 horses whose quality is all over the place that is simply 'mass producing' animals.

I also agree for newbies- I am not going to say dont breed, however be prepared if you do. Someone mentioned knowing something about conformation. Also, be prepared to foot the bill on vet, dental and health care, farrier, feed, etc... as anything can happen at any time. TRY to make sure your foals are going to a good home that has some kind of knowledge to take care of them and also that the home is suitable for what they are looking for. (I had a couple of people one Xmas time that wanted a yearling stallion for their little 3 year old child to 'grow up with'- uh, that would be a NO. They had NO knowledge about horses at all and I think were insulted when I suggested they learn a bit more about their care and feeding and suggested an older gentle seasoned horse if they can find one, that is SAFE for their child) If your horse does not sell, YOU are responsible to make sure it is well taken care of and a happy horse.

 

[Helicopter]

First of all I'd like to know where you can get a vet for $50.....WOW, WOW and WOW again.......... not to mention hay for $2 and chaff for $15

I had romantic thoughts of breeding a sweet baby for ages but any such musings have now disappeared after reading so many horror stories on this forum.

The same thing happens over here. So many little guys that no one wants to buy. Others that are bought by people who soon lose interest......then what happens to them?

 

[sedeh]

When I got into minis my original thought was to have 2 nice geldings to show and play with. A friend talked me into making it a "business" to get a good tax write off. Now I have a small breeding operation and went into it fairly well informed and bought nice foundation stock. Even with that I've weeded out the mares that didn't cross well with my stallion and now I only breed for one or two foals a year. Have I made any money...of course not. Does the tax "write-off" balance out what I pay out...not at all! That said, every year it's like Christmas waiting for the new foals to hit the ground and there's nothing like taking a horse that you've raised and trained and doing well at the shows with him/her!! I'm still an optomist and think the market will improve. I also know that every year at our Pinto shows we have at least one "mini convert" that have gone from the biggies to minis and love it! So I'm hoping my "Pinto" market will still be growing.

 

[Songcatcher]

Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?

I just read recently that someone had an idea about having horse owners "license" their horses, like you have to license dogs. While I am not a big fan of more government red tape, this has some merits if it means people might think twice about breeding that many horses!

What a joke. The world's biggest breeder of horses is the U.S. Government Bureau of Land Management. Thousands each year, most of which starve to death.

I am for people using some common sense in breeding anything, but am totally against the government telling us what we can do and what we can't.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

just wanted to say that horses can easily live longer than 30yrs. my neighbor has a 51yr old pony that is still goin strong and is still rideable

i rode him once and he has alot of get up and go, still bucks, runs, breaks out of fences and has no lameness issues.

 

[ruffian]

Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?

I just read recently that someone had an idea about having horse owners "license" their horses, like you have to license dogs. While I am not a big fan of more government red tape, this has some merits if it means people might think twice about breeding that many horses! Of course, there would always be those folks that get around the red tape....

I still say that every foal should have a "purpose" before it even hits the ground, and being sold isn't one of them. For example, when we were trying to breed our mares (unsuccessfully), we had intentions that we were going to drive the foals. Now, every foal isn't going to live up to everyone's expectations, but at least if the foal is "wanted", then it won't just flood the market.

No offense, but I am totally against any government agency being in my business any more than they are now.

That said - I went to a horse auction this past Saturday. THIS IS NOT JUST A MINIATURE HORSE PROBLEM!! They Had about 30 horses mostly Quarter horses & crossbreds. A guy brought in 2 minis, a mare and a stallion. Both were driven into the ring with about 50 pounds of harness (draft style) pulling an adult and a kid in deep sand. They got $200 for the mare and nothing for the stud. Mare was registered supposedly. I wandered over and was looking at the mare when the guy came up to unharness her. He asked if I was interested because she was sold but the stallion hadn't I said I had a few (LOL). Then he said that his stallion (J U N K ) COULD be registered because he saw papers when he bought him and sure would make me some money making babies.

Most of the 30 brought less than $200. One big rawboned stallion sold for $2,500 and was so badly conformed in the rear that his rear hoofs stepped into the same hoof print. But he was well broke to ride. So the new owner was very excited because he had some good mares to put him on. UGH!

The best looking horse was a 6 yo Arabian gelding that floated through the ring. Not Broke. Could not get a bid! This guy brought 4 Arabs from his farm, where he has a total of 26.

So don't be too hard on miniature horse folks breeding - there are a lot of big horse people out there too.

I bred my stallion to 6 mares this year. I was very careful in picking mares. I've had 3 gelding parties in the last 18 months. I had sold all I wanted, plus one that wasn't listed. I can afford to take care of them if they all end up staying. But I do agree with the spirit of this post - don't get into the horse business to make money!! You will, for someone else.

 

[midnight star stables]

I totally agree. I breed strictly for myself (one foal every other year=2 foals born here); if I do decide to sell, for whatever reason it's to a great home that I keep in touch with (I have sold those two foals to homes like that).

As an aside, I'm also really amazed at the amount of people that breed that seem to not know the basics about horses, let alone breeding and raising a foal. I know that you have to start somewhere, but to me that means reading tons (about normal pregnancy/dystocias and what to do etc. etc.) and maybe getting a mentor and being present at foalings. Handling foals. etc. etc. It means you should have a very strong theoretical and practical knowledge of horsemanship. I spent 20 years riding and showing (not to mention getting a very solid foundation in Pony Club) before I even thought about bringing a foal into the world. It really surprises me, how many people buy a mare in foal and just can't wait for her to have a cute little baby, without thinking ahead

100%

I have bred my two mares to nice outside stallions and still have no foals to my name.

I have one coming this fall and it'll be mine. I might offer him/her for sale if they aren't everything I hoped that be, BUT they'll always have a home here. Personally, my love is with showing, and driving, and halter. And I also love/promote geldings! Breeding comes much later down the list, so even when I breed, it's with the hopes to show the little one for many years.

But that's me. To each their own.

And Matt, you're right, there is SO much to learn and know about foaling. It is down right scary!

The more you do read, the more you see that you need to read lots more!

 

[susanne]

Is it any less of a tragedy for a homely, poorly bred horse to end up in a slaughter house?

Can you guarantee that that wonderful, carefully vetted buyer won't lose their job and be forced to sell your carefully bred horse in a rush -- possibly at auction?

Anyone who thinks that this does not apply to them is kidding themself. It has gone beyond the point of saying "But I breed quality minis!"

Some will say that if they don't breed their champion stock, the backyard breeders will still continue and the breed will diminish. Even if this were true, it does not excuse knowingly producing foals without a solid place in the world.

I don't expect people to stop breeding altogether, but rather cut way, way back with "on spec" breeding. How about breeding to order to order, with at least a deposit to show a commitment to the foal before it is created?

If you have to breed to sell, guarantee a lifelong home should the buyer run into financial difficulties, and then again, breed only for those you can afford to have returned.

I am not saying that it's okay for me and not for you -- as much as I love my horses, I will never breed.

No horse is so spectacular that they MUST be bred.

No horse is so worthless that it can simply be thrown away.

 

[disneyhorse]

Well, I don't think this applies only to miniature horses. Horses of all sizes, cats, dogs, etc. are not immune to this plea... and maybe even human children!

Andrea

 

[susanne]

I absolutely agree with Andrea and others -- this problem goes far beyond minis. Careful consideration must be given before creating ANY life.

We're supposed to be the intelligent species...it's time we act like it.

 

[kaykay]

I am really conflicted about this post. Hard to reply without sounding bad but here goes.

I NEVER want the government to be able to tell me what I can or cannot do on my own farm!

Really unfair to single out "newbies" and kinda damaging to our own industry to have a huge thread on how miniature horses have no value and should never be bred.

I am all for responsible breeding and encouraging responsible breeding. You all know I am a huge proponent of geldings. I am not a big farm by any means and we only have a limited number of foals per year (3 this year god willing)

I recently sold an ASPC mare and an ASPC/AMHR horse for a very good price, so this tells me great horses still bring great prices. I have also turned down many sales over the past few months because I had a bad feeling about the buyer.

The only horse I have had trouble selling is more of a pet quality mini. I will wait until the right homes comes around because she so dear to me.

Every industry has been hit by the economy, not just ours.

I said on the last thread that is has become like a bad word to admit if your farm makes money. And for most of us its not ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. For sure to be in this you have to be passionate and almost live, eat and breath miniature horses.

I have said for years horses are not a hobby; they are a way of life.

Many farms get set in their ways and refuse to outcross and bring in new bloodlines into their herd. These farms for sure are going to have a harder time selling. Or they never advertise, market or show etc.

I think a lot of newbies are much better educated now than in past years. More seem to know the right questions to ask and really look at conformation etc.

I guess I am the eternal optimist as I always think things will get better. This economy has been hard on all of us but I have to think we will work our way back out. It has forced us to cut our numbers, show less but at the end of the day I am still doing what I love and am passionate about.

 

[Leeana]

Nevermind..

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Is it any less of a tragedy for a homely, poorly bred horse to end up in a slaughter house? ...

No horse is so spectacular that they MUST be bred.

...

No horse is so worthless that it can simply be thrown away.

...

We're supposed to be the intelligent species...it's time we act like it.

And this goes for all sizes of horse. I've been shocked by some of the ads I've seen on Craigslist recently for full-sized horses.

Leia

 

[champsmom]

Okay. I bought 2 mares and a stud from my neighbor because he wasn't taking care of them. They were already bred so I have two yearlings and yes I bred one mare back and she just had the colt last week. None of them are "show quallity" but I can tel you that they are EVERY BIT as or more loved than the fancy shmancys.

Now, that said, I am gelding the stud, and all three colts. (one was just gelded yesteryday but the other hasn't dropped yet.) I have and will keep them all. I am sensible enough to know that there is a horrible problem with overpopulation of all horses, dogs and cats. I spay or neuter all my pets ( 4 dogs, 9 cats, and my male goats are wethers) and all but 1 are rescues.

The point I would like to make here is that just because a horse has a wonderful pedigree does not assure that it will recieve a great home or have a great life. I have a 21 year old thoroughbred mare that is a great grandaughter of Secretariat. She was a rescue also. The people that had her left her in a stall full of mud and muck with no hay or grain and she was literally eating the wood for nourishment. Fortunately a family member of the owners brought it to my friends attention and gave her papers and all. I have had this mare for 9 years now and love her very very much.

So it is not a "newbie" issue. Please don't take offence anyone but people who breed to sell are actually creating more of a problem.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

So it is not a "newbie" issue. Please don't take offence anyone but people who breed to sell are actually creating more of a problem.

i have to agree with this, just didnt wanna say it because i didnt wanna get bashed/create a fight. i think that the farms that are breeding any number of foals a year to sell arent helping the problem any. if you wanna breed youself a horse to keep then i dont think it'll hurt the market any, because you dont plan to sell it. right now the problem with every breed of animal is there are to many for sale and not enough homes to buy. the crappy economy isnt helping either.

i think breeding needs to slow down or stop until the economy gets better, and in the meantime people could train and show what they currently have.

ETA: It really irks me that this post is targeting newbies. EVERYONE started out as a newbie! even the people at Little King Farm started out as a bunch of newbies! if it werent for newbies there would be no mini horses at all! it just really irritates me that newbies are so frowned upon!

ok, i'm gonna

now.

 

[Sue_C.]

nd if you don't breed for the show ring they shouldn't be bred. Champion x Champion doesn't always produce a champion but at least some breed standard and improvement was attempted. Its the willy nilly breeding of these small horses just because we all can that bothers me

This is a "bit" elitist don't you think? There are a lot of people who show "champion" horses that haven't a clue about good conformation or what it really takes to create a good horse. Believe me, I have spent enough time in the show ring with other breeds to KNOW that "Mr/Mrs Champion" can (and often does) have faults that are covered up and the horses shown "just right" when the Judge is standing there. Also, MOST people here, who go on about only breeding champ to champ, are ONLY talking about the Halter ring...something that is the ruination of many breeds, so don't hand me that garbage that the show horses are the "be all and end all" of ANY breed.

That said, if one educates themselves on form to function, which is simply conformation, and suitability for the job the horses is expected to do, then there is nothing wrong with their "un-champions" going on to produce horses that can be far superior to many who have championship ribbons.

 

[Katiean]

This is a "bit" elitist don't you think? There are a lot of people who show "champion" horses that haven't a clue about good conformation or what it really takes to create a good horse. Believe me, I have spent enough time in the show ring with other breeds to KNOW that "Mr/Mrs Champion" can (and often does) have faults that are covered up and the horses shown "just right" when the Judge is standing there. Also, MOST people here, who go on about only breeding champ to champ, are ONLY talking about the Halter ring...something that is the ruination of many breeds, so don't hand me that garbage that the show horses are the "be all and end all" of ANY breed.

That said, if one educates themselves on form to function, which is simply conformation, and suitability for the job the horses is expected to do, then there is nothing wrong with their "un-champions" going on to produce horses that can be far superior to many who have championship ribbons.

I so agree. Also people say "Don't breed your dog there are too many in shelters." Well, for most of you out there, if someone did not breed their dog then you would not have that furry little lump sitting beside you or at your feet. Honestly, how many of you adopted your dog at a shelter? Yes, there will always be people that get a dog or a horse that will not take care or responsibility for it and take to a shelter for a dog or auction for a horse after after it is no longer a cute baby. Along with the horses I raise Japanese Chin Dogs. Our last litter was sold before the puppies were 4 weeks old (not leaving our home until they were over 8 weeks old). Then at 6 weeks one puppy had an accident and lost an eye. When his new owners no longer wanted him because he wasn't whole we made the choice to keep him. He is 4 months old and full of himself. He has a forever home here. When his surgery was $700 we were told a couple of different things by others. 1) was put him down. For an eye? No way. 2) drop him at the vet and don't go back to get him. Abandon him? I think not. The same with the horses. I feel you should not breed any horse you are not willing and able to keep and care for the resulting baby. However, that is a personal choice and no one should tell someone else do not breed because there are too many abused and neglected horses out there. If someone had not bred for my Missy I would not have been able to buy her. If she had not been bred before I got her, I would not have my Dusty. We all have to remember, we all bought our horses somewhere. There is no way the BIG BANG put these horses in our pens and barns.

 

[Minimor]

Sue--you got that just right! Champion to champion doesn't necessarily mean much of anything at all.

I've seen a National Champion that waddled so badly she should never have placed top ten, never mind National Champion. Is that kind of movement really the thing one should strive to breed into their foals, National Champion ribbon or not? Sorry, I would have to say no; certainly not if you're wanting horses that can MOVE and not just look pretty standing still.

And I agree it isn't just the newbies. Certainly some newbies decide that when they get a Mini or two it means that they should start breeding and selling foals to pay for their horses and their expenses, but it isn't just the newbies that cannot judge true quality in their horses--there are plenty of long=time owners/breeders that still don't have a clue. There are plenty of non-newbies that are churning out as many foals as ever, completely disregarding the over supply of horses already on the market, and completely disregarding the poor economy. Foals don't sell? Well, you drop the price, sell them in bulk, offering a buyer a deal they can't resist on multiple horses. Maybe even give away one here & there, just to get them all moved out in time to make room for the new foal crop.

I don't get that. If you can't get a decent price for your foals, how is it worth it to keep breeding and practically giving the foals away? Stop and think about it--maybe re-evaluate your breeding stock and your foals, figure out which ones could be taken out of the breeding shed. It isn't a crime to leave some mares open each year. Maybe breed fewer mares, and plan carefully to try and produce a few foals that are better than any you've produced before?

 

[Knottymare]

No horse is so spectacular that they MUST be bred.

No horse is so worthless that it can simply be thrown away.

I've been doing rescue in some capacity for 30 years. I have a lot I could say but I'm so sick (have a bad cold) that I don't have the energy to form the argument... but Susanne really summed up how I feel right there.

Breed quality, in small enough quantities that if the whole market were to dry up immediately, you could afford to keep everything you produce. Showing is NOT the only proof of quality.

I have been SICK seeing the ads from MAJOR farms clearing out hundreds of last year's foals to make room for this year's foal crop. Indiscriminate breeding is the problem. Both beginners and seasoned pros practice indiscriminate breeding.