Newbies WAKE UP

[SampleMM]

" If you can't get a decent price for your foals, how is it worth it to keep breeding and practically giving the foals away? Stop and think about it--maybe re-evaluate your breeding stock and your foals, figure out which ones could be taken out of the breeding shed. It isn't a crime to leave some mares open each year. Maybe breed fewer mares, and plan carefully to try and produce a few foals that are better than any you've produced before?"

Minimor---There is a lot of truth to your statement and I wish everyone felt this way.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I personally feel the newbie comment was meant as a warning more than a demand. The op, I believe, was trying to wake up those that think it will be all rainbows and butterflies if they start breeding.

Personally, I find equal fault, myself included, with small breeders and large breeders. And I am a believer in always striving for the best because those horses have the best chance at a productive life, but could still end up in a bad situation obviously. But even the best laid plans go haywire...anybody remember Corona? I believe that's the type of trainwreck the op is talking about. The heartache, the poor outcomes, the vet bills, etc.

As many have mentioned, the overbreeding is a problem in every animal, but this is a mini related board, so we are focusing on minis.

Everyone can use a wake-up call now and then. I believe the op was doing just that...trying to get even one persons attention is worth it imo.

Flame away.

 

[CharlesFamily]

I saw this list on another blog just after reading this one, so thought it was very applicable and I would share. I know many don't agree with the WAY Fugly blog states things - but there is a lot of truth in WHAT she says.

In her most current post, she was listing things about being a backyard breeder - which is a term NOT meant to mean if you breed in the backyard or have a small-scale operation you aren't quality (don't want to turn this into another debate about those terms). But many of the points she made are the same ones being argued here, so I thought I would re-post her list.

You should NOT breed (regardless of newbie, veteran, etc.) IF you:

- breed stuff you can’t afford to feed, vet and trim regularly

- breed stuff you don’t handle and train appropriately to its age

- breed registerable foals but then fail to register them

- breed without researching to ensure that there is a strong market for the resulting foals (and I don’t mean the kill pen)

- Keep crippled mares endlessly pregnant as baby machines. I don’t mean mares that are a little off at the trot. I mean mares with huge knees that can hardly walk to the water trough.

- breed with no attention paid to avoiding genetic diseases

- keep horses in an inappropriate facility, including ANY barbed wire, extra credit for foals out on barbed wire

- breed anything, even nice horses, in such an excess number that you drive down the entire market for them.

 

Barbara

 

[Jill]

I sure don't think we need the government telling us if / how many / what we can breed... nor what temperature to set our house thermostats, what vehicles we can drive, what books and news we can read.................... Bigger government = smaller individuals.

People breed for different reasons. Really, my hunch is that most people who are breeding minis SHOULD NOT be breeding minis. Do I think they should be required to stop? NO. Do I think they should have the education and instinct to realize they should. YEP.

For me, it took me a long time, lots of shows, and some re-arranging of the horses I own(ed) before I felt I was ready to breed. I'd owned minis for nearly 10yrs at that point, and riding horses for longer than that... just the same, we have had some heart breaks and very difficult situations along the way including loosing a mare during foaling and hand raising babies.

There's no way I'm in this for "the money". It's a money out situation here, and I do not see that changing. I do it, in part, because I think we are producing quality animals that I am enjoying and others may enjoy. It is really gratifying for me when I see foals "we made" that are the foals I'd want to buy if they weren't already mine. It is very emotionally rewarding.

Just the same, it is also an emotional roller coaster from point A to point B and I think I'm stepping off the ride for next year. I'm just wrung out with it right about now, and do not plan to breed for 2012 foals... but 2013 OH YEAH! I will be able to use some of our homebred mares at that point, which will be a milestone in my long planned goals. Until then, I'm going to do what I can to get the most enjoyment out of the hoofed wonders we've already made and love.

As a side note, for so many years, I've thought if newbies spent a spring reading about the tragedies and hardships our members (including the very experienced) have to deal with as a result of breeding / foaling, fewer newbies would dive right in to this particular "thing" you can do with minis. The fact that "everyone" with a mini seems to eventually breed is a big part of why there's a lot of poor quality minis out there and part of why so many "big horse people" do not consider miniature horse owners true horse people. Too many of "us" treat our horses like dogs, don't know basic horsemanship, keep our minis in what look like junk yards, ETC. There are problems all around, not just with inexperienced people deciding to breed their miniatures.

 

[Taylor Richelle]

" If you can't get a decent price for your foals, how is it worth it to keep breeding and practically giving the foals away? Stop and think about it--maybe re-evaluate your breeding stock and your foals, figure out which ones could be taken out of the breeding shed. It isn't a crime to leave some mares open each year. Maybe breed fewer mares, and plan carefully to try and produce a few foals that are better than any you've produced before?"

Minimor---There is a lot of truth to your statement and I wish everyone felt this way.

I totally agree with this!

I wish more people looked at it this way. Sadly i have seen it happen before and it was heartbreaking. That is another reason I am glad I don't breed.

 

[txminipinto]

This is a "bit" elitist don't you think? There are a lot of people who show "champion" horses that haven't a clue about good conformation or what it really takes to create a good horse. Believe me, I have spent enough time in the show ring with other breeds to KNOW that "Mr/Mrs Champion" can (and often does) have faults that are covered up and the horses shown "just right" when the Judge is standing there. Also, MOST people here, who go on about only breeding champ to champ, are ONLY talking about the Halter ring...something that is the ruination of many breeds, so don't hand me that garbage that the show horses are the "be all and end all" of ANY breed.

That said, if one educates themselves on form to function, which is simply conformation, and suitability for the job the horses is expected to do, then there is nothing wrong with their "un-champions" going on to produce horses that can be far superior to many who have championship ribbons.

No I don't think its an elitist mind set. I think its a good horse business mind set. By putting a horse out into the ring of ANY NATURE (I never said HALTER champion), you are putting that horse up against the breed standard. By doing so, you are testing that horse to see if that horse is an improvement. YES, there are "NATIONAL CHAMPION" horses I wouldn't dare own or even dare show and they got that way due to politics and excellent showmanship of the exhibitor to hide those faults we all see standing in the warm up pen. BUT, the breeders and owners have stepped up and said judge this horse against all others. They aren't taking pet quality and breeding willy nilly to sell on the side of the road or at auction. They are ATTEMPTING to breed correctly with animals that are of quality. Granted, some do this for the wrong reasons and obtain those "seals of quality" dishonestly, but at least they are putting themselves out there to be judged.

Those who do this honestly and with integrity will stand out to all. Those who don't will sucker those with less education and experience. Believe me, I've seen some pretty awful horses sell for pretty high prices because of a name. And I've seen some pretty spectacular horses sell for pennies because someone was smart enough to see that diamond when everyone else was blinded by smoke and mirrors. Not every $5-$10K horse is worth the manure they produce. Some $300 horses are worth more than any amount you or I have.

But again, National Champion really doesn't mean much unless they can produce better than themselves. There are some national champions who can't produce ANYTHING. Sometimes that big title comes with a cost greater than itself.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I do not breed; I only buy geldings (or geldings-to-be). But I am glad someone DID breed or there would be no horses for me!

When I first looked for a miniature I shocked the seller by refusing to look at mares. With a mare you can get more horses, every year! Why wouldn't I want to pay more for that?? With big horses, a gelding is generally more desireable for all-round activity. Even as a pasture ornament. IMO so are mininatures.

I have frequently advised new miniature horse owners that I meet to check out the local auction if they want to add another horse--not to breed. Generally they are attracted to the idea of "rescue".

Gelding in our part of the world is very economical and I always suggest it. But I'm not going to tell anyone he HAS to geld. The argument I use that makes sense to most, is would he have a full sized stallion for his children? For himself? The wheels start turning and suddenly the little horse is seen as a HORSE, with the life dynamic of any horse, big or little.

Ditto, here, for keeping the government out of our business.

 

[SammyL]

I personally do not breed. I have owned miniatures for eight years or so now, my herd consists of three geldings and three mares. If I could spay the mares, I probably would.

I am a huge believer in gelding/neutering/spaying all of your horses and other animals. All my dogs are spayed/neutered as are my barn cats.

That being said, responsible breeders should continue the good work, because without the good people in the industry, none of us would have horses.

Someday, God willing, we will live in a world where all the homeless creatures will have forever homes.

 

[Eagle]

Some of the comments on here have been down right rude. I call myself a newby as I have only had my mini's 5 years. This does not make me a COMPLETE IDIOT. I have and still do breed show jumpers for many years. I studied Equine science at school, I have done dressage for years, hunted for years and I was a groom for an international show jumper where I did the Olympics several times. I breed 1-2 mini's a year which are nearly all still with me. I don't need to sell my horses as I am lucky enough to have plenty of money and so does my husband. So where am I at fault???? Just cos maybe I ask a few questions to the majority of nice people on this forum. Well, I am sorry, next time I won't ask, I will go and by the book as was suggested.

I hope you are all happy as I WILL NOT disturb you all again.

Have a nice day

 

[CharlesFamily]

Eagle,

I don't think you should take offense to this post! You call yourself a newbie - but I don't think anyone else would! I know for me what is frustrating with minis is that people who have NO horse experience buy them - and typically their first horse is a stallion. Now, these same people would NEVER consider buying a full-sized stallion, but because minis are smaller and therefore easier to handle, this is what I see often happening.

Then, of course, if you have a stallion you MUST have a mare to breed them to so you can have more cute babies and make some money selling them. So now you have a first-time horse owner with no previous experience and not even an experienced friend to hep them and they are going to jump into horse breeding. And so often what I see around here is that the person typically is buying the cheapest horses they can find - because that is the only way they can think of making money. Typically, those cheap horses are NOT going to be sought after horses. The low end of the miniature horse pool is being flooded.

And again, I am NOT accusing all first-time horse owners of this. But I think people have been around enough to see that this happens SO much. And I don't even think this is addressed at people on this board. If you (you in general, not specific) are here, and you are reading, posting and asking questions, then you ARE trying to increase your knowledge! Sadly, every time one of these posts ends up on here I feel like people are "preaching to the choir." I think most that post on here would pass the "should you breed your horses" test. Sadly, the ones who shouldn't aren't here reading and trying to learn.

Just my .02 worth, but I hope you don't stop posting! I especially enjoy hearing from the members who live in other countries - adds so much to what I can learn!

Barbara

 

[wingnut]

I'm not sure I should even try to respond to the thread. I've had years of time on messages boards of all stripes and recognize a topic with so many facets to it that the many blanket statements presented here show. That to me is the biggest problem with many of the things said so far: broad stroke blanket statements. Many times these are born out of frustration over a situation regarding a love in your life and you reach your tipping point and can't help but let it all out.

Unfortunately, when using such a broad brush, you end up painting people who don't deserve it. Has anyone looked back on what you wrote and considered the *individuals* you're pointing fingers at? We have a lot of great people on this board of every experience level, of every farm size, of every breeding philosophy. We may not all agree with what the others are doing, but that doesn't mean they don't have important contributions they can bring to the table. These broad stroke negative commentaries push away away people, like it or not. Do we want a board where we all simply agree with each other and nod our heads? I'd think that would get to be boring fast and the board would slowly die as a result.

As a true newbie (i.e., my first mini 2 short years ago was my first horse EVER), I am saddened that people like myself would by no stretch of the imagination be left out in the cold if we followed the thinking that some of these broad stroke ideas would demand of the industry. I cannot afford a multi-thousand dollar horse. Do I hope to someday to be able to? Sure, who wouldn't? I am thankful that I was able to find great horses for prices I could afford because I have *never* enjoyed something so much in my life. Never have I been as happy and sure of a decision as the one we made in doing this two years ago. Did we do everything perfect? everything right? NO! We should have researched more. We should have definitely avoided the one old-timer breeder. We've been lucky that our lack of knowledge hasn't hurt us, I understand that. Since that first day two years ago, we have pushed to learn as much as we can and we ARE doing a very good job of giving our four a great life.

So, while I understand the OP's frustration and the emotions behind it, along with many who have responded in kind...sometimes, maybe we should take time temper ourselves, if even just a little bit.

 

[Sue_C.]

Some of the comments on here have been down right rude. I call myself a newby as I have only had my mini's 5 years. This does not make me a COMPLETE IDIOT. I have and still do breed show jumpers for many years. I studied Equine science at school, I have done dressage for years, hunted for years and I was a groom for an international show jumper where I did the Olympics several times. I breed 1-2 mini's a year which are nearly all still with me. I don't need to sell my horses as I am lucky enough to have plenty of money and so does my husband. So where am I at fault???? Just cos maybe I ask a few questions to the majority of nice people on this forum. Well, I am sorry, next time I won't ask, I will go and by the book as was suggested.

I hope you are all happy as I WILL NOT disturb you all again.

Have a nice day

Now-now-now...don't take too much to heart, what you read here. come on in and ASK your questions, and accept the answers you find helpful, and disregard those that are rude and/or disrespectful.. As you say, you've been involved with the Equine World for many years, so you should realize how "funny" (not) some horse folks can get. I am sure you have seen and heard your share of attitude and arrogance mixed with plenty of ignorance to boot...so please, don't let some petty bickering here bother you.

Scroll, and delete if that is what you'd like...but do stick around to get some of the GOOD info available here...and give us a chance to learn from you in turn.

 

[Tab]

It's okay that this started a debate and made us all think, me included. I have a lot to learn always. This thought, feeling, whatever you want to call it has been bubbling under the surface for a long time. I appreciate every post, even those I disagree with, have taken me out of context, or aren't directing their comments at the original post. The reason why I targeted the newbie? Because there are established farms that seem completely unaware that there is an overpopulation problem and will never change their ways, producing another large group of foals this year and next. In this post or last I have not directed my comments toward any individual here.

If a newbie whose interest in miniature horses has just sparked I hope they read these posts. This is not the time to jump into breeding, and it's never the time if they plan on making money. If we are to warn someone who doesn't know enough to know better, then we are being responsible horse owners. You WON'T make money on minis is the moral of the story. Newbies are the most likely to have this notion. I do not want to steer people away from owning miniature horses. This is an amazing breed that can be enjoyed in so many ways. If we bred half as much there are still more than enough to go around!

Do I think horses should be licensed and people should be charged for selling horses? Absolutely not! I don't believe that the larger sector has any business in this. It all comes down to personal responsibility. Let me also say that having a plan is very important. I would say that most of us breed for ourselves even if you do sell a few a year but it's important to know honestly when the limit is reached.

 

[Riverdance]

Some of the comments on here have been down right rude. I call myself a newby as I have only had my mini's 5 years. This does not make me a COMPLETE IDIOT. I have and still do breed show jumpers for many years. I studied Equine science at school, I have done dressage for years, hunted for years and I was a groom for an international show jumper where I did the Olympics several times. I breed 1-2 mini's a year which are nearly all still with me. I don't need to sell my horses as I am lucky enough to have plenty of money and so does my husband. So where am I at fault???? Just cos maybe I ask a few questions to the majority of nice people on this forum. Well, I am sorry, next time I won't ask, I will go and by the book as was suggested.

I hope you are all happy as I WILL NOT disturb you all again.

Have a nice day

Eagle,

You are NOT considered a newbie. Please do not take offense with what people are saying on this forum. It is not directed at you. You have been in horses for years. Besides, I do not think this posting was against newbies in general, but breeders in general. People who buy a few horses with the sole intention of just breeding and thinking they are going to make money, need to rethink. Someone who wants to get into Minis for the enjoyment, be it pet, showing or driving. START WITH A GELDING. Learn what it takes to own and properly take care of your horses.. Why is it that people in Minis think that the colts are no good, when they would make some great geldings, and a great way for "newbies" to start

 

[Riverrose28]

Eagle,

You are NOT considered a newbie. Please do not take offense with what people are saying on this forum. It is not directed at you. You have been in horses for years. Besides, I do not think this posting was against newbies in general, but breeders in general. People who buy a few horses with the sole intention of just breeding and thinking they are going to make money, need to rethink. Someone who wants to get into Minis for the enjoyment, be it pet, showing or driving. START WITH A GELDING. Learn what it takes to own and properly take care of your horses.. Why is it that people in Minis think that the colts are no good, when they would make some great geldings, and a great way for "newbies" to start

You make a great point about geldings. They are or should be the horse of choice for a small child. For example my 10 year old grand son showed two geldings and one mare last year, never had a problem with the geldings but at one show the mare was in season and gave him a fit. This was 4-H. I just had two colts gelded, waiting on three others to drop, so they can be gelded, and am seriously thinking of gelding a breeding stallion, so that I can show him, he is so pretty, but I don't have the confidence to show a stallion with my arthritis and bad knees. Besides, because of the economy I haven't bred for a while and don't plan on it any time soon. Go Geldings!

 

[BBH]

Very interesting thread.......the different opinions. And my two cents worth. I have had horses all my life but only got into minis a couple of years ago.......had always wanted one and the chance came up. And guess what? NEWBIE TO MINIS....Boy did I have alot to learn .....a real learning curve compared to caring for large pony or horse. The mare I bought was bred, she was pampered, had a camera on her for the last 60 days, and she still lost the foal. She will never be bred again after having 4 foals only one was registered, the other two are out there as pets and hopefully well loved and cared for. I found her one registered filly and they both will have a forever home here as that is the way we operate.

I love foals and have had my share over the years but in the current economy the horse market is just so down. CL ads make we want to rescue them all and it is not possible. I have seen so many buy pets for the kids not knowing what they are getting into, the kids lose interest and the horse suffers....not just minis.

I was very fotunate that I had some really good folks nearby and on this forum that gave me info to care for my minis.....have 3 now and just love them to death. I do not show breed shows but am intersted in CDE/driving and am going that direction. Minis are so smart they all need some kind of job.

why people breed and don't keep up papers does a disjustice to the breed.

 

[Jill]

Honestly, people who would get too upset over this thread and decide not to allow themselves to enjoy LB going forward are probably better off leaving the arena of online discussions. It's hard to participate in any message board if you allow the different opinions of others to upset you to the point of becoming angry or personally offended. The whole point of a message board it to share ideas and opinions. We don't all have the same ideas and the same, or even compatible, opinions. If we did all hold the same opinions and ways of handling our horses, we'd really just have boring discussions that wouldn't offer much room for learning!

That said, I don't want anyone to leave. However, maybe some people can take a second glance at what's actually been said and evaluate if it's really something worth being personally upset or offended over. While I didn't read each post, I didn't see anyone held out as a negative example or any fingers pointing at any specific person. I for one can promise I had no individual member or farm in mind when I expressed my point of view. I really feel that's the case with other replies, too.

 

[MindyLee]

Well I guess Ill be the 1st one to admitt...

When I 1st got into minis in 2004, I started off with a little fat stallion who I just thought the world of. I knew nothing about registrations or conformation. Well I did buy a mare to be his girlfriend and to breed to to make lots of easy money. I did have my foal, a cute little colt and I put a HUGE price tag on him cause I thought I could. 7 months later he finally sold for $580 double reg. IT WAS A REAL EYE OPENER cause I was a newbie and though "I was going to be big and rich and have my minis and name all over".

Many yrs later now that I have changed my program around majorly and have learned A LOT! I realized that the foal was totally cute but had poor confirmation. Today, my breeding program is right where I want it. I still own that fat little stallion and his girlfriend. BUT have WAY better horses in my herd for breeding now. I also learned that I will never make enough $$$ to come anywhere even close to pay back what I have into mine, and I wont be a big named farm and super rich.

The 1st two will always stay with me because they are very sentamentle to me.

 

[miniwhinny]

I have just one thing to say.....

antiesbig:

antiesbig:

Okay that was more than one thing lol.

But seriously, we don't all like the same types...we don't all like the same heights...we all like different colors, bloodlines, disciplines etc and we shouldn't get upset because someone else has a different view.

The bottom lines to me are

1. No one has any more right to breed than another. If you're new or have been around as long as Noah. If you have 2 horses or 200 as long as you're not breeding bad genetics/traits etc.

2. This is not a money making "hobby". You may sell for a good price but just doing a good job at maintaining a healthy herd can easily wipe that out.

3. These horses do NOT all do well when delivering foals and the bottom line shouldn't be - should I breed in this economy - to me the bottom line should be "should I breed and risk MY decision becoming a fatal decision for this (innocent, trusting) mare and foal who have had no choice in anything going on. All of these terrible losses have not happened by chance. These animals have all died because their owners decided they wanted a foal for whatever reason (money, cuteness, making the next world champion etc) To me it's not "can I make money for myself in this economy". To me it's " am I willing to risk the life of this mini so I can enjoy having a foal".

So, yes, breeding IMO should be left to those who are capable of handling the choice they have made - be that the emotional strength to cope with a loss, the financial where withal to do everything possible to save a suffering mare/foal, the knowledge that the current market conditions will allow a probable sale at fair value and finally...and I'm not seeing people doing this...spaying or neutering ANY offspring not as good or better than the parents that bred them. Many cat and dog breeders do this...why don't we (Rhetorical ? - I know why - $$$$)

 

[Matt73]

It's okay that this started a debate and made us all think, me included. I have a lot to learn always. This thought, feeling, whatever you want to call it has been bubbling under the surface for a long time. I appreciate every post, even those I disagree with, have taken me out of context, or aren't directing their comments at the original post. The reason why I targeted the newbie? Because there are established farms that seem completely unaware that there is an overpopulation problem and will never change their ways, producing another large group of foals this year and next. In this post or last I have not directed my comments toward any individual here.

If a newbie whose interest in miniature horses has just sparked I hope they read these posts. This is not the time to jump into breeding, and it's never the time if they plan on making money. If we are to warn someone who doesn't know enough to know better, then we are being responsible horse owners. You WON'T make money on minis is the moral of the story. Newbies are the most likely to have this notion. I do not want to steer people away from owning miniature horses. This is an amazing breed that can be enjoyed in so many ways. If we bred half as much there are still more than enough to go around!

Do I think horses should be licensed and people should be charged for selling horses? Absolutely not! I don't believe that the larger sector has any business in this. It all comes down to personal responsibility. Let me also say that having a plan is very important. I would say that most of us breed for ourselves even if you do sell a few a year but it's important to know honestly when the limit is reached.

I totally agree. Also, it's the true "newbies" that don't know anything about horses, get a mare and a stallion right off the bat and start breeding, that I'm thinking about. And, I'm also not pointing fingers at anyone, specifically, on here or even only miniatures. This is a miniature horse forum, so we're focusing on that. But the same problem exists in the big horse world, too (on an even bigger scale). Do you know how many really nice off-the-track Thoroughbreds with amazing pedigrees go to slaughter every year?