Newbies WAKE UP

[rabbitsfizz]

I have held off posting as I did not feel I had much to add.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that the economy (the World economy, this is not a single country problem) is in the kazy and this is definitely affecting horse sales right across the board- every breed has the problem, some breeds are addressing the problem in various ways, some breeds are just sticking their heads firmly in the sand and hoping the problem will go away.

It will not.

It will, actually, get worse.

If those of you who still have a ready market keep a weather eye on the market, and cut your cloth, as it were, according to this market, and can afford to tighten your belts and ride it out (OK, enough of the metaphors

) then you will be OK, I think.

I think the problem is not, and never has been "Newbies" breeding Miniatures, the problem is and always will be people getting into any breed of horse/ dog/ cat purely for financial gain.

Added to that there is the small corner of the market that think they can recoup their money by breeding a foal- would you do that with a pet dog or cat? Well, yes, in some cases some people would do that.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who have, over the years, bought horses specifically as pets, asking for a gelding as they do not wish to breed.

I have had a number of people who do not profess to want to breed but wish only to purchase a filly, some genuine, but most, I have to say, merely trying to drive the price down as they "only want a pet".

Then there are people who want to show, want to breed, etc, and say so openly.

Those I can deal with!

So if you can still sell your horses well, well done you, but do not think that, in a couple of years, the slump will not affect you, as it will, it will affect everyone.

So long as you are ready then you should not suffer too badly.

 

[Farina]

I would like to add something from a different perspective: A friend of mine (no *not* myself) is looking for a AMHA registered mare in the age between 3 and 6. I am more in shetlands but I have seen some adverts for very reasonable priced mares. We have looked at several mares and the most of them are bad quality.

I don't want to put it in general but the more reasonable priced ones lack of quality. If anyone in this forum is willing to sell a world champion winner and constantly blue ribbon reciever in the age between 3 and 6 for 500-1000$ as stated in several posts I would love to be contacted so we could arrange to import these mares to Germany. We would have many buyers on hand wanting to get a quality horse reasonable priced.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

I have had a number of people who do not profess to want to breed but wish only to purchase a filly, some genuine, but most, I have to say, merely trying to drive the price down as they "only want a pet".

i have to say that i am one of those people that would ask for a mare/filly specificly for a pet. me and mares just seem to get along better, i've also had better luck with mares than i've had with geldings. my current gelding, Toby, is the first gelding(out of a total of 4 throughout my life) that i have actually gotten along with and will keep.

also, some people dont like the idea of sheath cleaning

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I don't want to put it in general but the more reasonable priced ones lack of quality. If anyone in this forum is willing to sell a world champion winner and constantly blue ribbon reciever in the age between 3 and 6 for 500-1000$ as stated in several posts I would love to be contacted so we could arrange to import these mares to Germany. We would have many buyers on hand wanting to get a quality horse reasonable priced.

Just because a horse has not been shown, does not mean it is not top quality. I have seen many blue ribbon winners, with professional pictures that make them look like a million bucks, then see them in person, and think Wow! i have alot better horses than that. Pictures can be decieving, i would NEVER buy a horse off professional pictures without seeing just some common shots of it.

 

[ohmt]

Farina- I bought a National reserve Grand champion halter and national top ten driving stallion for $1000 and he is definitely not lacking quality. There are a lot of awesome deals out there right now. Don't pass up a horse just because of a low price

 

[ohmt]

Missed the age part of your post though-he is 16 this year so not in the age range you'd want and I doubt he would have been offered at such a low price had he been. He is fantastic though and i'm anxiously awaiting his first foals.

 

[valshingle]

I would like to add something from a different perspective: A friend of mine (no *not* myself) is looking for a AMHA registered mare in the age between 3 and 6. I am more in shetlands but I have seen some adverts for very reasonable priced mares. We have looked at several mares and the most of them are bad quality.

I don't want to put it in general but the more reasonable priced ones lack of quality. If anyone in this forum is willing to sell a world champion winner and constantly blue ribbon reciever in the age between 3 and 6 for 500-1000$ as stated in several posts I would love to be contacted so we could arrange to import these mares to Germany. We would have many buyers on hand wanting to get a quality horse reasonable priced.

To sell a mare, or any horse, that has that kind of win record at that price would be to sell it at a substantial loss. I, for one, would much rather hang on to that horse than sell it at a huge loss. $500 to $1000 is not what I consider reasonable. Also, when the price gets that low, the buyer starts wondering "what is wrong with that horse?". If I am going to sell any horse that cheaply, I rather it went to someone locally where I can make sure of the buyer's (and horses) situation.

 

[Tab]

This thread should die, sorry, but the last few posts were wild tangents not even related to the topic. Very frustrated and we're not seeing a future for this breed unless we all start to breed less. Those that are just getting into this breed must be made aware of the current market, and that is another reason to speak to newbies. If you are in fact selling horses, lucky you. You are the exception, and it doesn't mean you will continue to have success. I live in horse country and this is what I am seeing lately around here, "If I'm going to spend money on a horse I'm going to want to ride it." Vet care isn't any less for a mini nor is farriery.

There just seems to be a certain joyous oblivion to the fact that this breed is overrun. Every year I have drop-in visitors who pick out my two best horses and want them for free, or want to buy them for $150, or to buy them without their papers to breed, or to buy them unregistered and register them with an unknown registry to breed, etc. They aren't necessarily newbies either. I don't just sell to people who I don't think would make a good home. Not once did I imply that I am the only one that should breed. I am sticking to my guns by breeding 1/2 less, for me that is none, possibly for the rest of our lives. That is being realistic to the current market.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a little more realism? How many times have you heard, "I have a small herd of 50." Or, "We keep it small, we only have 15 foals a year." 50+ is not a small herd and 10+ foals a year are not a few, and this is what I've heard since becoming involved with this breed. Now I've known a few people who have the acreage and the love is there for their horses, but most of the time they have those sheer numbers because they breed and cannot sell.

 

[denny10012]

This thread should die, sorry, but the last few posts were wild tangents not even related to the topic. Very frustrated and we're not seeing a future for this breed unless we all start to breed less. Those that are just getting into this breed must be made aware of the current market, and that is another reason to speak to newbies. If you are in fact selling horses, lucky you. You are the exception, and it doesn't mean you will continue to have success. I live in horse country and this is what I am seeing lately around here, "If I'm going to spend money on a horse I'm going to want to ride it." Vet care isn't any less for a mini nor is farriery.

There just seems to be a certain joyous oblivion to the fact that this breed is overrun. Every year I have drop-in visitors who pick out my two best horses and want them for free, or want to buy them for $150, or to buy them without their papers to breed, or to buy them unregistered and register them with an unknown registry to breed, etc. They aren't necessarily newbies either. I don't just sell to people who I don't think would make a good home. Not once did I imply that I am the only one that should breed. I am sticking to my guns by breeding 1/2 less, for me that is none, possibly for the rest of our lives. That is being realistic to the current market.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a little more realism? How many times have you heard, "I have a small herd of 50." Or, "We keep it small, we only have 15 foals a year." 50+ is not a small herd and 10+ foals a year are not a few, and this is what I've heard since becoming involved with this breed. Now I've known a few people who have the acreage and the love is there for their horses, but most of the time they have those sheer numbers because they breed and cannot sell.

SO WHAT YOUR SAYING IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREED IN THE PAST AND YOU NOW FEEL ITS NOT QUITE A GOOD IDEA AFTER ALL .....NO ONE ELSE SHOULD DO IT...... WELL MAYBE THE NEW BREEDERS WILL BE A BIT MORE CAREFULL THEN THE OLDER BREEDERS !!!! AND JUST BECAUSE IT DID'NT/ HAS'NT WORKED FOR YOU , DOESNT MEAN IT WONT WORK FOR OTHER PEOPLE...

 

[midnight star stables]

This thread should die, sorry, but the last few posts were wild tangents not even related to the topic. Very frustrated and we're not seeing a future for this breed unless we all start to breed less. Those that are just getting into this breed must be made aware of the current market, and that is another reason to speak to newbies. If you are in fact selling horses, lucky you. You are the exception, and it doesn't mean you will continue to have success. I live in horse country and this is what I am seeing lately around here, "If I'm going to spend money on a horse I'm going to want to ride it." Vet care isn't any less for a mini nor is farriery.

There just seems to be a certain joyous oblivion to the fact that this breed is overrun. Every year I have drop-in visitors who pick out my two best horses and want them for free, or want to buy them for $150, or to buy them without their papers to breed, or to buy them unregistered and register them with an unknown registry to breed, etc. They aren't necessarily newbies either. I don't just sell to people who I don't think would make a good home. Not once did I imply that I am the only one that should breed. I am sticking to my guns by breeding 1/2 less, for me that is none, possibly for the rest of our lives. That is being realistic to the current market.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a little more realism? How many times have you heard, "I have a small herd of 50." Or, "We keep it small, we only have 15 foals a year." 50+ is not a small herd and 10+ foals a year are not a few, and this is what I've heard since becoming involved with this breed. Now I've known a few people who have the acreage and the love is there for their horses, but most of the time they have those sheer numbers because they breed and cannot sell.

Tab, I get what you're saying. I can name ten + farms with a slew of miniatures. I can only think of one big horse farm like that. I think it is all about moderation and responsibility.

But you know... Some of the horses of today are AMAZING when compared to the breeding stock of yesterday... It is those farms that I look forward to seeing their foal each and every year

I guess I'm a hypocrite and 100% an enabler to some exceptional breeders... But I can live live with it when I'm blessed with a some of the horses I have.

 

[HGFarm]

The thread was dying, until it was posted on again today and brought up again for more comment. It has not been posted on since the 4th, so why post again and then say it should die? I dont get it.

I agree, what doesnt work for some may work for others. I am finding that good horses still sell. Maybe not for the ridiculous huge prices they used to, but still for a reasonable price in today's economy.

If folks think they are going to just jump in and breed dozens and make a zillion dollars, they wont, but I dont see the need to completely stop breeding and improving the quality is important.

Many people who are 'newbies' to Minis have had many many years of experience with other breeds and know horses and what good conformation is and know what is important to strive for.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Everyone should just remember is breed for quality not quantity. You can get more money selling one or 2 quality foals over 10 less then average foals any day. Your choices are your responsibility. But everyone has a choice and if they think they can sell 20 plus foals every year and make good money for it good for you, thats great. But people who do that and can't sell them then don't breed for that many or don't breed at all. People have to stop giving away all these horses or its not going to change.

Remeber its not just the minis the business with big horses aren't much better. And if people can raise 50 plus horses good for you, I know I can't and won't judge. Minis are so much smaller then big horses they think they can raise that many and again their choice.

 

[Tab]

SO WHAT YOUR SAYING IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREED IN THE PAST AND YOU NOW FEEL ITS NOT QUITE A GOOD IDEA AFTER ALL .....NO ONE ELSE SHOULD DO IT...... WELL MAYBE THE NEW BREEDERS WILL BE A BIT MORE CAREFULL THEN THE OLDER BREEDERS !!!! AND JUST BECAUSE IT DID'NT/ HAS'NT WORKED FOR YOU , DOESNT MEAN IT WONT WORK FOR OTHER PEOPLE...

No that is not what I'm saying at all. I said it would be good for the breed to breed 1/2 less. It's all about supply and demand.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

You know maybe this thread should die, but maybe it needs to be reread many times by all of us.

I still maintain, ALL breeders have a responsibility if they're selling an intact stallion to someone 'new' that is not of sufficient quality, that breeder just added to the problem. The same goes for mares.

I was on a breeders site the other day (in Texas) and her stallion was so gawd-awful, he would have been a wonky gelding. The two I gelded this week (trying to be responsible) one is 15 and I'm done breeding him, the other is his son. Great conformation, not the prettiest head, so gelding!

As I mentioned on the IRS thread:

>...... but if they aren't selling or selling for a very low amount, to me that's a stupid way to run a business. I cringe when I see people selling registered (often double registered) Minis for a few hundred dollars.

AMHA - stallion report, DNA test, 4 month foal registration - $71.00 + membership $65 = $136.00

AMHR - 4 month foal registration $20 + membership $65 = $85

So double registered minimum $221

<

As this doesn't take into account supporting that mare and foal until it's sold (feed, farrier, meds, etc.). So, I'm not saying don't breed, but please consider WHAT and WHY you are breeding. Push the geldings, and ALL of us need to really work on getting a strong gelding market out there - like the big breeds - that make owning a gelding the choice for pets, showing, performance, etc.

 

[Minimor]

AMHA - stallion report, DNA test, 4 month foal registration - $71.00 + membership $65 = $136.00

AMHR - 4 month foal registration $20 + membership $65 = $85

So double registered minimum $221

Yes, but the way some people look at it....raise 10 foals, and it's cheaper per foal because that membership fee gets divided up amongst the 10 foals. So, if you raise 10 AMHR foals it only costs you $77.50 per foal for your registry fees. For AMHR if you raise 10 foals then it's only $26.50 per foal. Obviously it makes far more sense to raise 10 instead of just one. (And NO! that's not my philosophy!)

 

[Eagle]

I don't know how your market is but I went to take some brood mares to France last autumn and on the way back I drove past a mini farm.(only a 2 hour de-tour, I told hubby I got lost.lol) Anyway they had 2 wonderful foals they were asking € 9000 each. I offered them €15000 for them both and they said no. That doesn't seem bad to me.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

Push the geldings, and ALL of us need to really work on getting a strong gelding market out there - like the big breeds - that make owning a gelding the choice for pets, showing, performance, etc.

....why are mares so looked down upon on this thread? are they just seen as babymakers to everyone???? i've always liked mares best, if i want a pet, show or performance horse the first thing i look at is mares! i've never had a gelding that i actually got along with and kept(besides my current one, Toby) and if i decide to get another mini next year i will probably only look at mares. mares can do so much more than pop out babies and i wish people/breeders would realize this!

 

[kaykay]

Molly I dont think Michelle at all is putting down mares, shes promoting geldings. I always recommend newbies start with a gelding. Especially if they want to show etc. A great gelding is worth their weight in gold. They are easier to play with and show because they are not distracted by raging hormones like a mare or stallion.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I don't know how your market is but I went to take some brood mares to France last autumn and on the way back I drove past a mini farm.(only a 2 hour de-tour, I told hubby I got lost.lol) Anyway they had 2 wonderful foals they were asking € 9000 each. I offered them €15000 for them both and they said no. That doesn't seem bad to me.

Ah, but there are far LESS Miniatures over there than over here.

 

[MBennettp]

I agree that people need to educate themselves and also take the future of the foals into consideration before breeding but the comment about they shouldn't be bred unless they have a show record, I do not agree with. Some of us have had horses for more than 50 years, have learned conformation, breed standards, etc. and hate showing.

I personally do not show but have good horses. I did breed 2 mares last year to an exceptional stallion that belongs to a friend. These anticipated babies will have a lifetime home with us whether or not they are show quality.

We took into consideration whether or not we have the time and resources to take care of them before we even considered breeding. We also picked a stallion that was a compliment to our mares and the combination should result in outstanding foals. We are not big breeders, in the last 20 years we have had 1 foal and that was from a mare we purchased bred.

The problem is not whether or not anyone should breed but the people that breed everything without taking into consideration whether or not that animal is correct and should be bred. For instance, some of the breeders that breed for color and don't consider conformation at all. I have seen some beautifully marked horses that had horrid conformation but are being bred simply because they are the correct color and the colored foals sell.

I also agree that if everybody would just breed half as many, the market would pick up in a few years but this is true of any breed, look how many registered horses are sold for slaughter in every breed.

When registered minis are going through he local auctions and bringing less than $100 for some of them, there is definitely a problem. My nephew was at a local auction just last week and a former breeder was dumping a bunch of pregnant mares and a couple of stallions. The mares brought $35 each and one of the stallions (who should have been gelded at birth) brought $15 and this person sold every one of them with papers.

I do know who bought them and they will definitely be on the auction block at another auction soon. They only bought them to re-sell. It is sad for the horses that they are treated this way but people need to take responsibility for their animals. We have plans in place if anything were to happen to us, our animals will stay where they are for the rest of their lives and be cared for just as they are now.

Responsibility people, it is a living, breathing, feeling animal that will need care for it's entire life, not like growing crops of grain that has no feelings and will grow without care.