Non-breeding mares, those that have any, how would you feel about...

[JMS Miniatures]

Well if anyone is good with words and know how to word it for a proposal that would be great. I'm not good with words. And if anyone knows how to go by doing this to get it to Convention that would be awsome. I have no clue and probably will not be going to AMHR Convention, or AMHAs.

This was just an idea I wish to see happen and that would be great if this idea came to reality.

Thanks,

Jamie

 

[Jill]

I keep researching this off bite issue, talking to many others mostly, and I'm not convinced an off bite is always hereditary. I guess if it was off at birth, there'd be more concern, but if it was on and moved off....and if both parents are on......I don't know. Wish there were studies done on it.

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I have seen in my own horses some bites look off (some very off) to have them improve greatly with floating. A vet can look and see if points are making a bite go off and if that's not it, then I wouldn't breed the horse. Too many horses out there now so why take that chance? Just like having a mare or stallion who's cow hocked or toes out, etc... any proof that WOULD be passed on? Worth the chance? (not to me)

As far as who could say the mare needs "non breeding" papers, I think the current owner (whether it's the breeder or otherwise) should be able to make that call and once made, it can't be revoked.

For example, someone might have a mare who had a horrible time foaling and should not be bred again, but who would know but looking at her? She could be nicely made on the outside... But if the papers were stamped "non-breeding" there's a better chance she will not be re-bred. It could even go a step further to reflect on the paper the reason why (like off bite, bad legs, extreme foaling problem...).

Also, I always wonder how ready registries are to really help the breed in this kind of situation since the more foals born, the more registrations and maybe more members...

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think such a proposal would help but as long as there are irresponsible breeders who do not geld colts before selling them there is going to be an over production of minis. Also, the seller needs to be telling the buyer why the horse shouldn't be used for breeding. Something breeders need to realize is if the buyer of a horse is being charged a high price for the horse, the buyer just might think "well I can make some money from breeding these horses too!" Happens all the time and look at all the people breeding dogs for the extra buck! It still comes down to either gelding or spaying the animal to see that it is not used for breeding and if people can't afford it than they shouldn't be breeding. If less animals are to be produced than it has to start with the breeder!! Responsibility is the ticket to less being produced so more aren't reproducing....but how many breeders will do that?

: We wouldn't be discussing a need for having a place for non breeding animals if somebody hadn't produced them to start with!

: Mary

 

[crponies]

I really do not think it is a good idea. I could see it being a good idea if there is an obvious flaw involved such as an off bite that everyone agrees is a bad thing. Also, it could be a good thing for mares with medical problems that need it for protection. However, I think some people would abuse such a change to police "type" or to make breeding animals more valuable. If you want to say limited on all the horses you sold even though there is nothing wrong with them, you could. That could make it harder to find good quality animals for breeding which in turn could lead to people turning to breeders who are producing inferior horses but selling them with full registration. I think maybe this could be prevented by a vet certificate being required just like when you change a stallion's papers to gelding. The vet could certify that the horse does have a bad bite, had problems foaling, etc.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think maybe this could be prevented by a vet certificate being required just like when you change a stallion's papers to gelding. The vet could certify that the horse does have a bad bite, had problems foaling, etc.

But would that stop people even breeding and the registries won't even recognize it. I mean, sure if someone got her and they used her for breeding and this program was into affect then it would just be grade horses. But if their was no program like what I would like to see happen then they can register the foals no matter whats wrong with them

I know someone that foals out alot of foals and alot of them have bad off bites, still keeps them registered, and people I'm sure still uses them for breeding. A foal has an off bite, oh no sell it cheap, new people come in, they don't care they are looking for something real cheap thats registered, they find this foal they know it has an off bite, but as long as its registered, and can still breed, thats money for them on the ground.

Is it my fault she has a bad bite, yes I am to blame. Thats why I want to try and to prevent any problems in the future. However, I think she should deserve to show, not in halter, but why not in performance. I can't help she foaled out in the wrong sex, or she would be gelded instantly with a mare you really can't do that.

I can keep, but I have too many A size geldings that do performance, and she will be A size, if I train her, and sell her to somebody who wants her as a show horse, than I would love that to happen, I just don't want to see her foaling out registered foals, but she should beable to show.

 

[CyndiD]

I have seen this work for AKC registered dogs....

I am ALL FOR IT!!! :aktion033:

 

[Warpony]

I'd be all for it. I just REALLY wish there was a way to permanently sterilize mares, something less traumatic and invasive then spaying... and then papers to go with them like for geldings.

Personally I don't think people will use it to manipulate type or anything else any more then they do in dogs, which I have never personally seen happen. People usually give limited registration on pet quality animals that they want to be sure are placed in non-breeding pet homes and i suspect it would work much the same with horses. An animal that is incapable of breeding is more then likely to be worth less at sale time and I can't see many people intentionally taking a loss just to manipulate the breed to their taste.

 

[mistyrose]

I am all for it for colts and fillies. I sold a horse at auction once with a verbal and written statement that she would not bred. She had been checked and found to have adhesions from a surgical birth that rendered her sterile. The people who bought her called about trying to breed her. The next folks called about trying to breed her. She finally ended up in a family that wanted her for driving. People don't listen! Limited papers would be a godsend.

It might not be a bite problem, it might be minimal dwarf charateristics. The Owner of the dam at foaling should be able to put limited papers on a horse. I can geld a colt before he leaves my care but I can not spay the fillies. It is frustrating to sell a filly as a pet due to conformation problems and have the new owners breeding her down the line.

The AKC has proven this can be effective we should learn from them.

If you are in favor of this a short email to your directors would be helpful.

AMHA

You can find your AMHA directors email by going to http://www.amha.org then look on the right hand side of the webpage. Click on Regional map. Click on the area of the country you are in. Your directors are listed here.

AMHR

http://www.shetlandminiature.com, go to members and look up your region. Sorry I am not being more precise but the AMHR page will not come up right now.

 

[Doobie]

At first thought I agree with having some way of regerstering Non breeding ...

However I too am conserned that it would allow for one of two things ... the cost of breeding mares going way up because everything is registered non breeding and a flood of lower quality breeding mares to cover those who dont have the 3 - 10 000 for a breeding mare of quality.

Another thing ... most talk about it being like with registered dogs ... does that mean a 'non breeding' registered mare could not be shown ??? With dogs they must be intact to be shown ??

jmo

 

[crponies]

Oh, but people DO abuse it in the AKC. Some people I know in Idaho breed good quality labs and mostly sell them in the San Francisco area. They are able to get more money for them in part because they do not put the breeding limitation on them like a lot of the lab breeders do to keep the demand/prices up for their dogs. And Jamie, I meant that people would send the vet certificate in to the registries to get the papers changed to the non-breeding type. The registration status could still be changed but would have to have a valid reason not an opinion one.

 

[Warpony]

At first thought I agree with having some way of regerstering Non breeding ...

However I too am conserned that it would allow for one of two things ... the cost of breeding mares going way up because everything is registered non breeding and a flood of lower quality breeding mares to cover those who dont have the 3 - 10 000 for a breeding mare of quality.

Another thing ... most talk about it being like with registered dogs ... does that mean a 'non breeding' registered mare could not be shown ??? With dogs they must be intact to be shown ??

jmo

they allow geldings to be shown so I don't see why limited papers would be any different then geldings. There are also show opportunities for spayed and neutered dogs, just not in the conformation ring (agility, herding, fly ball, obedience.... etc).Since in general a horse will get these papers for things that might make them unsuitable for the conformation ring anyway but that won't effect their ability in performance I don;t think it would make significant impact.

as far as the cost of mares going up... I don't really see that as much of an issue. again, most people want the most money possible for their horses so they are only likely to put these papers on horses they would rather sell for less then risk having bred. I highly doubt people will go about limiting papers on good quality mares willy-nilly. And if it does happen then (the price of breeding quality mares going up) maybe it will discourage some of these people who buy up anything with working reproductive organs just so they can pop out babies that end up in rescue or with short painful lives because they have such poor conformation. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing at all.

edit to add: I do like the idea of there needing to be a listed reason though.

 

[capall beag]

I think it is a great idea and really it can't be abused.

It works well in the AKC, and the AKC is all for it because it means more $$ for them in alot of cases.

Certainly with the AKC only the person who first registered the animal can change the status of ltd or full.

Some breeders use it to get more for their pups with full registration BUT lets face it there are TONS of minis and dog breeders to choose from! If you don't like the breeders policy or terms go to another breeder.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Why not show them, if they can do it right now. I'm sure there will be some degree like halter classes, but why not let them show in performance if they have the ability to do so. I do plan to show my filly in halter classes. Not just to place but it teaches her patience in the show ring, and it will make her performance training much more smoother, if someone complains saying hey that filly has an off bite I'll be glady not to pay for the class but with much respect would like to be a part of it just to train her. You can she geldings is it the mares fault she came out as a filly and not a colt.

If the registration would accept vet certificates and that would make her as a non-breeding mare then I'm all for it.

I agree you should give a valid reason why this horse should not be used for breeding.

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