Not accepting the cart

[MiniNHF]

Wanted to get some ideas from people, especially those who may have gone through this.

After ample amount of time of long lining etc in April we attempted to attach the cart to my boy... before that we did the whole, walking besides the cart, in front of it while someone pulled it behind us. He ended up dancing sideways and bolting forward about knocking me over and then after that he didnt want anyone touching im and was cow kicking out which we thought was very odd. After that episode we decided to start at the basics again; a few weeks later we realized he was greiving through stress of the loss of my bigger horse and he had also developed stomach ulcers.

So I gave him 4 more months straight of ground driving, lunging, attaching bags/rattlign things etc to him and even pulling the pvc poles like shafts (also driving carts around him when working). Since he was doing wonderful we decided to try the cart again yesterday. Before we started I did his normal ground driving and bendings etc and he was being very good and calm.

When we pulled it out he was looking at it like it was the boogie man, now mind you this horse has been to even worlds where there are carts every where and they do not phase him, sitting still or hooked up moving.

We did the whole walking besides him and he danced a little side ways to watch it and then settled down. We then attempted to just have him stand in the shafts and nothing attached and he was being very quiet. So we decided to attach everything, well while we did that he decided to dance sideways again, hit the one shaft, bounced back into the other one and then bolting forward and kicking outa t the same time to get away from the cart. We tried one more time and he did the same thing just bolting forward. After that we decided to walk the cart behind him and he was not a happy camper, he kept fighting me to turn around to see it. By the time we got done, he was just tired and allowed the cart to be pulled by us behind him.

Since his actions were not favorable we have decided to attach the poles to him every time I ground drive him from here on out and then try the cart again in a few weeks. We have even parked the cart outside his stall so he has to see it every day and we also are walking him all around it and over the shafts. (its an easy entry cart).

Not sure what else we can do to make him comfortable, so I wanted to get anyones ideas of maybe anything else to do. I know he is a very visual horse so it may be the blinders that are making the situation worse with this partcular thing even though I have been working him in them for a long time.

 

[sundancer]

I am interested in seeing what some of the replies are to this. I have a mare that is very similar. I have trained countless minis/horses to drive and this one is my stickler! She is a little high strung and very much in tuned to whats going on around her.

Julie

Victory Pass Stable

Maine

 

[paintponylvr]

Since his actions were not favorable we have decided to attach the poles to him every time I ground drive him from here on out and then try the cart again in a few weeks. We have even parked the cart outside his stall so he has to see it every day and we also are walking him all around it and over the shafts. (its an easy entry cart).

********

When you say this - are you attaching poles to him like this?

The next question would be - have you pulled anything w/o shafts attached? I have actually found that until my horses/ponies relax while pulling either a tire or even just a single tree on the ground, some just did not accept the cart. Also, with my 2nd mare that I trained in 2010, she would sometimes - pretty much out of the blue - start shying while pulling a cart. A couple of times I was thankful we were in an enclosed area so we could work thru it, the other I was just as thankful we were in the open where we worked thru it in a different way (but w/ major kick damage to our cart) ... It can be both exhilarating and scary to work a pony in large circles where you are galloping - especially when that galloping starts w/ the pony acting scared and/or kicking.

While working with the draft horse trainer - when we started pulling the single tree (and later the double tree with a pair), I was quick to stop and "fix" the mare(s) when they got a leg over the trace. He stopped me and told me they - 1 - needed to learn to accept the sensation of the trace being between their legs or where it shouldn't be & 2 - that they needed to learn to step back across the trace (calm down and "fix it" themselves). It was hard at first, but the girls learned that when they got upset, the trace might get into places it shouldn't . They either had to work with it like that or they fixed it themselves. Learning that "exercise" went a long way in keeping them calm and getting them to accept and figure things out. There WERE times when it got a little exciting, though!! When I was at home alone - we practiced in areas I knew they couldn't completely get away from me. If you go thru the pictures I have posted in various areas, you might see some pictures where a pony is working with the trace in the wrong area (usually with one leg over it).

With a pony that is more tense, we would practice ground driving with the singletree on the ground and pulling - a tire, a pvc pole (not up against the pony like in above pic) and a tarp. They pull different, they sound different - of course they look different if they either don't wear blinkers or turn their heads enough to see what is behind them. I did a lot more of this with a couple of our ponies - they are now the better driving ponies and can be taken out and hooked now w/o a lot of preparation or ground work. The ones we didn't do this - hmmm - sometimes they need some work to "get their minds on their work"... And I just calculated how much actual ground driving Cupid has done. Only about a 1/3rd of the work that those first mares got before we hitched them the first time... He needs a lot more work - consistently - before we consider hooking him to a wheeled vehicle. Maybe your guy is similar?

Some of these exercises might work for your guy? Understand I'm not a professional trainer but these have worked for me.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

A few things come to mind;

I start all of my horses in an open bridle, I want them to see as well as hear what is going on. I don't go to a blindered bridle until they are working calmly in the open bridle and have some real time on them.

Time, time and more time,... some horses require a lot of time before they are ready some less.

The horse does fine pulling pvc poles? When I was sure of that I would get a helper to pull the cart behind me while I ground drove with the pvc poles in the shaft loops.

Again, time and lots of it, never stop when your horse is not accepting the work, if things are getting really intense then ease up to the point where he is managing but never just stop or he will have learned that bucking/kicking out will chase away or dislodge the thing he is upset about. If it isn't hurting him there is no reason he can't learn to accept it.

Invest in a bucking/kick strap and make sure to use it the next time he is hitched.

 

[paintponylvr]

We have pulled with a harness that didn't have collar and hames (we used a pleasure harness, not a work harness) and had no problems with it.

here's a few pics of different ponies. 1st one is Bit - this is not the first time she'd pulled the single tree and this is after an hour of pulling it. She still isn't relaxed much...

From this - "OMG, it's chasing me..."

to this (took more than a year and it's now been almost that long since she was last hitched)... In the meantime, she's matured. She just acts different now, so I wonder if she'd be a different drive right now?

and this fellow hasn't been hitched to a wheeled vehicle simply because while we've done a bit of work, we haven't done enough consistently. Because he hasn't been worked consistently enough, he still takes forever to get to a relaxed state while "working".

Before harness work - 1 March 2013

to this - April 22, 2013

to this - May 26, 2013 -

Now he is pulling logs - both single and as a pair. Maybe this winter, he'll get enough work to where we'll get him hooked.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Paula, your posts never fail to inspire me. I have a gelding I've been working that i was told has had a wreck in the past (not sure if this is true as the teller may have been inspired by something other than my well being to 'share' but I must assume the worst for his safety and mine). He has had extensive ground driving and does very well with it, to the point of boredom -his and mine, but I am not quite ready to drive. I can hitch him but he is still a little tense at times so we just keep working on adding things to our routine to convince him the cart is no threat - cans, tarps, driving over rough ground or whatever else occurs to me(I'm a firm believer in giving the horse all the time and experiences he needs). Now looking at your pictures I'm thinking I need a single tree and a tire etc. If he does get stressed I won't have my training cart trashed and he will be less likely to be hurt. It should be easy enough to make a workable single tree for training purposes - now to find the time

 

[MiniNHF]

Since his actions were not favorable we have decided to attach the poles to him every time I ground drive him from here on out and then try the cart again in a few weeks. We have even parked the cart outside his stall so he has to see it every day and we also are walking him all around it and over the shafts. (its an easy entry cart).

********

When you say this - are you attaching poles to him like this?

The next question would be - have you pulled anything w/o shafts attached? I have actually found that until my horses/ponies relax while pulling either a tire or even just a single tree on the ground, some just did not accept the cart. Also, with my 2nd mare that I trained in 2010, she would sometimes - pretty much out of the blue - start shying while pulling a cart. A couple of times I was thankful we were in an enclosed area so we could work thru it, the other I was just as thankful we were in the open where we worked thru it in a different way (but w/ major kick damage to our cart) ... It can be both exhilarating and scary to work a pony in large circles where you are galloping - especially when that galloping starts w/ the pony acting scared and/or kicking.

While working with the draft horse trainer - when we started pulling the single tree (and later the double tree with a pair), I was quick to stop and "fix" the mare(s) when they got a leg over the trace. He stopped me and told me they - 1 - needed to learn to accept the sensation of the trace being between their legs or where it shouldn't be & 2 - that they needed to learn to step back across the trace (calm down and "fix it" themselves). It was hard at first, but the girls learned that when they got upset, the trace might get into places it shouldn't . They either had to work with it like that or they fixed it themselves. Learning that "exercise" went a long way in keeping them calm and getting them to accept and figure things out. There WERE times when it got a little exciting, though!! When I was at home alone - we practiced in areas I knew they couldn't completely get away from me. If you go thru the pictures I have posted in various areas, you might see some pictures where a pony is working with the trace in the wrong area (usually with one leg over it).

With a pony that is more tense, we would practice ground driving with the singletree on the ground and pulling - a tire, a pvc pole (not up against the pony like in above pic) and a tarp. They pull different, they sound different - of course they look different if they either don't wear blinkers or turn their heads enough to see what is behind them. I did a lot more of this with a couple of our ponies - they are now the better driving ponies and can be taken out and hooked now w/o a lot of preparation or ground work. The ones we didn't do this - hmmm - sometimes they need some work to "get their minds on their work"... And I just calculated how much actual ground driving Cupid has done. Only about a 1/3rd of the work that those first mares got before we hitched them the first time... He needs a lot more work - consistently - before we consider hooking him to a wheeled vehicle. Maybe your guy is similar?

Some of these exercises might work for your guy? Understand I'm not a professional trainer but these have worked for me.

To answer your question to the picture yes we have done exactly that and he did wonderful, he could care less they were there or even touching him. I do not have any small logs or tires at my disposal at this time I know that

A few things come to mind;

I start all of my horses in an open bridle, I want them to see as well as hear what is going on. I don't go to a blindered bridle until they are working calmly in the open bridle and have some real time on them.

Time, time and more time,... some horses require a lot of time before they are ready some less.

The horse does fine pulling pvc poles? When I was sure of that I would get a helper to pull the cart behind me while I ground drove with the pvc poles in the shaft loops.

Again, time and lots of it, never stop when your horse is not accepting the work, if things are getting really intense then ease up to the point where he is managing but never just stop or he will have learned that bucking/kicking out will chase away or dislodge the thing he is upset about. If it isn't hurting him there is no reason he can't learn to accept it.

Invest in a bucking/kick strap and make sure to use it the next time he is hitched.

I work him in a open bridle when I started last year with him and then to a closed and now I alternate. I have done the pvc poles and he was fine, we have tried the person pulling the cart behind him while he is in front and he does not like that at all, he wants to dance sideways to see it until he is exhausted and gives up for a little bit and then it starts all over so we tried to end on a good note.

Do you have a site where you can get the bucking/kick strap? Ive never used those on horses.

We have pulled with a harness that didn't have collar and hames (we used a pleasure harness, not a work harness) and had no problems with it.

here's a few pics of different ponies. 1st one is Bit - this is not the first time she'd pulled the single tree and this is after an hour of pulling it. She still isn't relaxed much...

From this - "OMG, it's chasing me..."

to this (took more than a year and it's now been almost that long since she was last hitched)... In the meantime, she's matured. She just acts different now, so I wonder if she'd be a different drive right now?

and this fellow hasn't been hitched to a wheeled vehicle simply because while we've done a bit of work, we haven't done enough consistently. Because he hasn't been worked consistently enough, he still takes forever to get to a relaxed state while "working".

Before harness work - 1 March 2013

Now he is pulling logs - both single and as a pair. Maybe this winter, he'll get enough work to where we'll get him hooked.

I have to say I have had bags hooked all over him free flying, cans with stuff etc and after 10 mins of bolting around he quiets down and never phases him after that, even if its a few days later I try it again and he is fine.

 

[Renee]

Big Black Horse, Chimacum Tack, Iowa Valley Carriage, and Comfy Fit Harness all carry mini kicking straps.

 

[MiniNHF]

Big Black Horse, Chimacum Tack, Iowa Valley Carriage, and Comfy Fit Harness all carry mini kicking straps.

Thanks Renee

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Perhaps you could combine the pvc shafts and dragging the tire for a time? That might come close to replicating the experience of being hitched, but it honestly sounds to me like he needs hours and hours of being ground driven with the cart behind him (in his case, from what I can see in my minds eye, he would do best hitched and ground driven, so he can't turn around) and a bucking strap in place. Make sure to work in a confined area that he knows the limits of and that the breeching is doing its job, don't want this one to get 'bumped' from behind and become even more convinced he is being chased. The only other thing that I can think of that might help is a header who will hold a lead and keep him facing forward and walking when he tries to stop and spin. I really think it sounds like he just needs lots of time to accept this next step. If he has done all the steps you describe and learned to accept them so completely I see no reason why he can't move on to the cart and accept it in the same way. If he were mine I would, as I have said before, be thinking time and practice.

 

[paintponylvr]

hmm, sounds like you've done everything I've known to do...

I'll agree with Reignmaker above.

The only other thing I could add is this - maybe, just maybe, he isn't one that "you" are meant to drive. Maybe he isn't going to make a good driving horse OR it could be he won't make a driving horse for you. I've had a couple that I just wasn't comfortable with. They went on to other folks and did VERY well with different situations in driving. I found the same with riding - there have been a couple of horses that I simply couldn't deal with on the ground or while riding. Over the years of breeding and raising shetland ponies, shetland pony x's and Arabians, I've found that not all 3 of our daughters could handle or ride or drive the same horses or ponies. Some had to do with what they liked doing (some liked the training, some just liked toodling along with an already trained horse), some had to do with personality and dispositions.

OR

Maybe he needs time to mature?

 

[paintponylvr]

O, geez!!!

I completely forgot!!

That first mare, Bit, was what I called "my squeaky wheel". She was soooooo uptight. First when the harness breeching touched her haunches in Feb 2010 (she "lost it" - squalling, squealing and BUCKING around on the lounge line no different than a rodeo bronc w/ a flank strap hooked tight). Got her over that and got to where we did the single tree on the ground. Took quite a while (much more than a single work out) to get that to the point where she calmed down. Then we did the tire... Started out by getting her to go forward until she felt/hear the tire dragging and she tucked her hindquarters so tight she almost sat down, clamped her tail down so hard that it was almost between her knees and her head shot up w/ little to no response on the bit. She froze in that position - rocking forward and back. I moved up by her head and tried to bend her sideways - she'd become a solid "steel" beam. So we just stood there. I lasted longer than her (my daughter brought me a bottle of water) - I did talk to her a little and stroked her head, throat, neck, shoulder. Even moved around her just rubbing and touching her. I was very careful to keep the lines where I would not be caught if she "unwound" - and she finally did. With the same reaction as with the breeching. I effectively stood in the center just driving her. She went "all out" and you can imagine the centrifugal force on that tire... It was wildly slinging and bouncing until the bit of haystring holding it to the singletree broke. later I was amazed at how long it actually lasted - thought it'd break much sooner. That tire bounced a couple of times and whizzed past my head and landed on the roof of the barn behind me. It felt like forever - but was probably only a few minutes. We were both winded and drenched in sweat. Took a while after the tire left before she slowed to a trot and started responding to the lines (they were hooked up for driving but I was "driving" her in a circle around me). IT took forever to get her to the point where she'd stay moving forward when hooked to a tire. She'd feel it start to pull and she'd freeze all over a gain. Then leap forward and it would become a nasty circle. Lots of starts and stops - partially to practice, partially how it was to get her moving - w/o running.

We eventually "got it" and then started pulling that tire OK. We then practiced having those shafts attached to her sides - and went thru the exact same thing. It wasn't as violent nor did it take as long. Then on to the metal ez entry cart...

I never did get her over her nervous-ness with it. Every time there was a rattle or a clang (and we arent talking a work harness w/ metal pieces), she'd freeze and lock up. I DID NOT want that bucking, raging monster to show back up. You can imagine how fast I got out of the cart after originally mounting it. Hmmm... I had the other cart with us. So I tried her with the wooden sulky style cart. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!! She relaxed and smoothly stepped out. It didn't make the same noice in the grass, on the gravel or bouncing over ruts. Never did finish working her with the metal ez entry as I traded my larger one for a smaller one so that my girlfriend had. The smaller one didn't work. We did still have some issues with the sulky - but not the same nor as upsetting to eirther of us.'

Bit was a challenge - but she was also fun. I did get a bit spooked a couple of times with her - but not so much so that I was really scared or wanted to put her back out in the pasture. I felt like I could deal with whatever came our way and WE DID. Honestly - eventually she became the one I wanted to drive - not because she needed more work but because she kept me "on my toes" just enough that it was always fun and exciting. Even today, I think of her as "my driving pony" - over all the others. There have been other challenges with her, but I still like her "spirit" and look forward to continuing to drive her over the years.

Does anyone have a wooden cart that you can try? OR maybe something different than the one you are using?

 

[paintponylvr]

And Reignmaker, the singletree was made from a broken pitchfork handle. I cut it down to 24" (i think), drilled a hole in each end and the middle. I just have haystring thru the holes - but also have the string wrapped around the "tree" as well...

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Thanks Paula, I was thinking something along those lines. Should be easy enough for even me to put together. I've been looking around for something to use on the place. I'm considering knocking down a birch sapling and cutting out a length of its trunk. Should last pretty well I think if I can find one the right size.

 

[MiniNHF]

Sorry it took me a while to respond back, have been busy.

But last night I took down some large cut down pvc pipes and attached them one behind the other to his straps, just like paintponylvr did with the broom handle. I started off with one at the walk and trot and then moved up to three.

Well it didnt even phase him one bit and we went across all kinds of surfaces with them and no reaction what so ever and he did know they were behind him. So his issue isnt things being behind him or touch his sides it just seems to be the cart in general

 

[paintponylvr]

Soooo - it could be the metal cart itself or it could be he just needs more time/work... OR maybe he won't make a driving horse and instead needs to go onto a different "job".

Did you try a different type of cart? Like a predominantly wooden one? The feel, the weight and the sound is very different.

 

[jeanniecogan]

hi, wish to throw my 2 cents in. have you tried letting him sniff, taste, and push around the cart. also pull the cart on both sides of him passing him and him passing the cart, and eventually bumping him with the cart while passing him . hope you solve your problem.

 

[MiniNHF]

Soooo - it could be the metal cart itself or it could be he just needs more time/work... OR maybe he won't make a driving horse and instead needs to go onto a different "job".

Did you try a different type of cart? Like a predominantly wooden one? The feel, the weight and the sound is very different.

Unfortunately I do not have access to any other carts but top of the line show carts and of course we are not going to test them out on him with how he is acting. The only other thing I have tried with him is jumping and that is going to take a long time with him. He is not the type to do obstacle and showmanship with. He was competitive in halter but now that he has gained more muscle for performance it will be even harder now for him to compete against these leaner horses.

hi, wish to throw my 2 cents in. have you tried letting him sniff, taste, and push around the cart. also pull the cart on both sides of him passing him and him passing the cart, and eventually bumping him with the cart while passing him . hope you solve your problem.

Yeah we have let him sniff it and actually walk into the shafts the opposite way to show him it wont hurt him. The first attempt in the spring we did beside him and behind him and he wasnt thrilled but was tolerating it. I might try to have someone take a video as we try to hook him up next time, maybe we will see something we didnt notice then.

I might see if i can have someone hook up to that cart with another horse and drive that one around him vs the other ones that are quiet. So maybe then he can see and hear it and realize its not something that will hurt him.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Have you ponyed him with another driving horse? That is the first thing I do when it comes to introducing them to the cart. I never had a problem when they are ponyed to it. The next day I use the sending exercise and send them between me and the cart, and every side of the cart. Then I ask them to back in between the shafts, once they back confidently between the shafts I start by trying to scare them with the cart. I am bumping the shafts on their sides, I'm trying to make as much racket as I can and if I feel that they are comfortable with that I hook them up and we ground drive at first and I get in and go.

Before I even think about driving them they do close to two weeks of ground work, and that doesn't include any driving training, just learning the basics. And I ground drive them maybe a week before I introduce them to the cart. It sounds like he has missed something in the ground work, or like others said he may just not cut out to be a driving horse, or he may just take a lot longer to train.

 

[BSharpRanch]

I have a big horse that I spent tons of time trying to train him to drive. He pulled poles, then logs out of the forest and pulled a travios full of firewood. He just could not stand that bouncy, rattley thing behind him. I worked for a couple months doing different things. He just did not like it on/behind him. He would follow it everywher, would allow it beside him and as long as someone was pulling it he would even allow it behind him. He just did not like it, so I stopped trying.