Not sure if this has been disgussed

[kaykay]

I would never say most stallions. And I do think yearling stallions can be a pain no matter who handles them.

I have also been told at shows "dont stand behind so and so the horse will kick you or your horse" which I am always glad for the heads up. A couple years ago I had a filly get kicked in the head from the mare in front of her going out of the gate. Luckily my filly was okay but it was distrubing. Especially since this same mare was taken in a youth class. To ME those horses have no business in a show ring

I have seen quite a few with professional trainers that are kicking, biting, rearing etc at the trainer. Not good. So in that case I dont think its a handling issue.

 

[Keri]

Okay, guess I look at it a different way here. A lot of stallions are going to be nasty if they aren't reared properly. I've seen them jump all over people. But I can guarantee you if that stallion was mine, he would be standing properly at a show or at home. Secondly, you take these nasty dispositioned stallions and geld him and within a few months, you got a super family horse. Take away the brains and you got a great horse. The ones I have problems with are nasty dispositioned mares. Wish you could spay them for cheaper!

I have never met a nasty dispositioned gelding.

 

[targetsmom]

Well, I think I am looking at it from a different perspective too. I would bet that most of us would agree that we wouldn't want to breed a really bad tempered, nasty stallion - at least if we thought that the nasty disposition was going to be passed along. But I would also guess that some of us would accept things that others of us would find objectionable - just as we do with conformation issues. I happen to appreciate that our stallion is extremely easy to train, is very content all by himself, doesn't seem to be afraid of anything, and is just a very laid back guy. Now our gelding (who came from the same place and we absolutely adore) has some traits that I myself would not want to see passed on. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body, but he is "a challenge" which we knew when we bought him. Again someone else might not care that he is spooky, claustrophobic, hard to catch, herd bound.. you get the idea - but he is NOT mean or nasty and he IS a lovely black and white pinto. In terms of breeding, we much prefer our stallion's temperament but we could see where others might actually prefer our gelding's temperament. (Yes, it was our choice to geld him and gelding did not turn him into a gentle family horse!). He has been fairly successful in the Pinto show ring though.

 

[Ashley]

I have seen a stallion that was nasty, babies werent, but then again I found out the person owning the stallion was wipe happy. So my point is its not always the way they are, but the way they were raised.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

I agree that most of the misbehaving minis I've met were the result of poor handling--not an inherently bad disposition. That said, because of the way minis are marketed (generally as a family horse) I think temperament becomes more of an issue, especially if it's heritable. If you believe the registry promos, then a good disposition is pretty much a breed trait in minis. My bottom line is that while a good temperament should never outweigh bad conformation, with so many nice minis out there these days I don't think good conformation should outweigh a bad temperament either.

 

[Riverdance]

One thing that everyone is overlooking.

If a stallion is biting,kicking rearing and striking, in the Minis it is a difficult situation, where one can get lots of bruises. In the big horses,it is deadly . If the stallion is doing things that can be considered deadly, in any size, it should never be used for breeding!!

 

[dannigirl]

I would never say most stallions. And I do think yearling stallions can be a pain no matter who handles them.
I have also been told at shows "dont stand behind so and so the horse will kick you or your horse" which I am always glad for the heads up. A couple years ago I had a filly get kicked in the head from the mare in front of her going out of the gate. Luckily my filly was okay but it was distrubing. Especially since this same mare was taken in a youth class. To ME those horses have no business in a show ring

I have seen quite a few with professional trainers that are kicking, biting, rearing etc at the trainer. Not good. So in that case I dont think its a handling issue.

I have sometimes asked people to stand back from my horse by saying I don't want them to get kicked. It is not always because I honestly think my horse will kick, but because it gets nervous or jumpy when crowded and someone paying attention to their own horse may not notice how closely they have gotten to my horse. If it is my horse's first show, it doesn't understand all the strange horses and people being around. When that horse is a young stallion, you also add all the hormones that he may be learning to deal with.

 

[Relic]

Well in answer to your question every one of our stallions we show or have shown l make sure to let anyone know that they will either bite kick or rear so keep your hands of and your distance behind him. Not one of them has kicked anyone nor bitten l know of but thats not saying in a place where sometimes we have a thousand people go through the barns at a show it couldn't happen. l have signs for everyone no matter what sex saying this horse bites no hands..l see a lot of horses that never bit before get sour and go after hands...l wouldn't want to be petted on my head for hours on end either against my will and not think about getting back...as far as rearing/kicking going through that kind of crowd to get to a class can also be testy for some stallions mares or l've even seen geldings get ticked because hands seem to be coming from each and every direction and let loose...BUT yes we do go home and breed these nasty ill mannered beggers not a problem as l know along with anyone else who knows our stallions or anything about horses that they don't have a nasty bone in there body..l have ever only seen one nasty stud and he was a real piece of work no one had to tell you to keep your distance his body language was pretty clear..

 

[Cathy_H]

Keep your horse away from behind this one.

..... Lee has told that to people in the show ring ( even though it was not necessary ) just to keep the exhibitor behind him off his rear.

In the past some people have gotten too close to him & their antics have been very distracting to his horse.

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

Keep your horse away from behind this one.

..... Lee has told that to people in the show ring ( even though it was not necessary ) just to keep the exhibitor behind him off his rear.

In the past some people have gotten too close to him & their antics have been very distracting to his horse.

I have done this too, it was my yearling stallions first ever show so he was really nervous and we got stuck in front of a lady who kept getting closer and closer behind him and was jumping and stomping at her horse and terrifying mine. Luckily he isnt a kicker because that is a situation where I can really see a horse firing out! Now I have been trying to despook him at home so that he wont worry about those people with strange antics at a show. lol

 

[txminipinto]

This is a really big topic for me and my owners. I really try to educate my owners that pretty isn't always enough. A stallion should be of breeding quality and temperment together in the same package. Not one or the other. You must have BOTH!

As a trainer who handles a lot of stallions (easy to say that 75% of my business is stallions), I agree with others who say that a stallion's behavior in the ring isn't always a reflection of the handler or the training it has had. When you find yourself with a truely RANK stallion that is out to hurt you and the owner doesn't see it (or understand it), you find yourself in a very sticky situation. I myself was in this situation last year and it came to a head at Nationals when he grabbed me by my arm in class (at NATIONALS) and almost yanked me off my feet. It has been the only time I almost asked to be excused from the ring. Behavior modification training, calming supplements, even sedation didn't make this horse any more easy to handle. Some would say, "send him home", but that put me in the ethical and moral dilema of sending a rank stud home to an "older" owner that was going to get hurt by him. I was half her age and was getting hurt repeatedly by this horse! There was no way I was going to put an owner in the situation of possibly being seriously injured. The only thing that would keep this stud at arms length was a driving whip. And I'm not the only trainer who's handled this horse nor am I the only trainer to ever be attacked by a stud! Rearing, striking, "acting like a wild horse" are not acceptable and is dangerous to everyone. Some said that big horses are deadly when they behave that way, but sometimes these little ones can be deadly as well. Have a front hoof go whizzing by your head once and you'll earn a whole new respect for these cute little horses.

The end of the story is he was gelded the week after nationals. A HOF stud, that was beautiful, was gelded because he didn't have the temperment to handle his testicles. Testicles are earned....they may be born with them, but to keep them, the priviledge is earned.

A stud is an advertisement of your farm and foals. One with poor conformation or temperment will keep buyers at bay.

Edited to also add: I also try to keep individuals away from my studs in the ring. Has nothing to do with the stud's temperment but more to do with the fact that I see more and more inexperienced handlers handling stallions and not respecting stallions. I haul by myself and don't need to get hurt because someone thought our two boys should "meet" or would stand closely without striking out at one another. No matter how gentle a stud, they should always be respected.

 

[Reble]

This is a really big topic for me and my owners. I really try to educate my owners that pretty isn't always enough. A stallion should be of breeding quality and temperment together in the same package. Not one or the other. You must have BOTH!
As a trainer who handles a lot of stallions (easy to say that 75% of my business is stallions), I agree with others who say that a stallion's behavior in the ring isn't always a reflection of the handler or the training it has had. When you find yourself with a truely RANK stallion that is out to hurt you and the owner doesn't see it (or understand it), you find yourself in a very sticky situation. I myself was in this situation last year and it came to a head at Nationals when he grabbed me by my arm in class (at NATIONALS) and almost yanked me off my feet. It has been the only time I almost asked to be excused from the ring. Behavior modification training, calming supplements, even sedation didn't make this horse any more easy to handle. Some would say, "send him home", but that put me in the ethical and moral dilema of sending a rank stud home to an "older" owner that was going to get hurt by him. I was half her age and was getting hurt repeatedly by this horse! There was no way I was going to put an owner in the situation of possibly being seriously injured. The only thing that would keep this stud at arms length was a driving whip. And I'm not the only trainer who's handled this horse nor am I the only trainer to ever be attacked by a stud! Rearing, striking, "acting like a wild horse" are not acceptable and is dangerous to everyone. Some said that big horses are deadly when they behave that way, but sometimes these little ones can be deadly as well. Have a front hoof go whizzing by your head once and you'll earn a whole new respect for these cute little horses.

The end of the story is he was gelded the week after nationals. A HOF stud, that was beautiful, was gelded because he didn't have the temperment to handle his testicles. Testicles are earned....they may be born with them, but to keep them, the priviledge is earned.

A stud is an advertisement of your farm and foals. One with poor conformation or temperment will keep buyers at bay.

Edited to also add: I also try to keep individuals away from my studs in the ring. Has nothing to do with the stud's temperment but more to do with the fact that I see more and more inexperienced handlers handling stallions and not respecting stallions. I haul by myself and don't need to get hurt because someone thought our two boys should "meet" or would stand closely without striking out at one another. No matter how gentle a stud, they should always be respected.

Thank you, for sharing your experience. I do agree

 

[Genie]

This is a really big topic for me and my owners. I really try to educate my owners that pretty isn't always enough. A stallion should be of breeding quality and temperment together in the same package. Not one or the other. You must have BOTH!
As a trainer who handles a lot of stallions (easy to say that 75% of my business is stallions), I agree with others who say that a stallion's behavior in the ring isn't always a reflection of the handler or the training it has had. When you find yourself with a truely RANK stallion that is out to hurt you and the owner doesn't see it (or understand it), you find yourself in a very sticky situation. I myself was in this situation last year and it came to a head at Nationals when he grabbed me by my arm in class (at NATIONALS) and almost yanked me off my feet. It has been the only time I almost asked to be excused from the ring. Behavior modification training, calming supplements, even sedation didn't make this horse any more easy to handle. Some would say, "send him home", but that put me in the ethical and moral dilema of sending a rank stud home to an "older" owner that was going to get hurt by him. I was half her age and was getting hurt repeatedly by this horse! There was no way I was going to put an owner in the situation of possibly being seriously injured. The only thing that would keep this stud at arms length was a driving whip. And I'm not the only trainer who's handled this horse nor am I the only trainer to ever be attacked by a stud! Rearing, striking, "acting like a wild horse" are not acceptable and is dangerous to everyone. Some said that big horses are deadly when they behave that way, but sometimes these little ones can be deadly as well. Have a front hoof go whizzing by your head once and you'll earn a whole new respect for these cute little horses.

The end of the story is he was gelded the week after nationals. A HOF stud, that was beautiful, was gelded because he didn't have the temperment to handle his testicles. Testicles are earned....they may be born with them, but to keep them, the priviledge is earned.

A stud is an advertisement of your farm and foals. One with poor conformation or temperment will keep buyers at bay.

Edited to also add: I also try to keep individuals away from my studs in the ring. Has nothing to do with the stud's temperment but more to do with the fact that I see more and more inexperienced handlers handling stallions and not respecting stallions. I haul by myself and don't need to get hurt because someone thought our two boys should "meet" or would stand closely without striking out at one another. No matter how gentle a stud, they should always be respected.

Thank you for your comments.

Sounds like you know your stuff, and I love the comment regarding the testicles "being earned".

Good topic Reble!

 

[susanne]

I agree 100% with Carin (txminipinto).

The issue is NOT how many stallions are rank, be it many or a few, but simply that those who are nasty should not be bred, no matter how beautiful or spectacular their color.

Whether this nastiness is personality or testerone poisoning, it is most definitely a major fault, especially in a breed which is touted as "the horse for everyone." Unfortunately, some people expect and even take pride in their stallion's "machismo."

There are too many beautiful AND sweet stallions out there to replicate those who fall short.

 

[kaykay]

Carin I so applaud you for speaking out on this subject and telling your story. It happens! Some of them are just rank and should not be bred.

The end of the story is he was gelded the week after nationals. A HOF stud, that was beautiful, was gelded because he didn't have the temperment to handle his testicles. Testicles are earned....they may be born with them, but to keep them, the priviledge is earned.

That is how it should be!

I also am very careful when I am handling a stallion in the ring. I do not get close to other stallions and I never forget that I have a stallion on the lead rope. I see so many near accidents when someone is chatting with a friend and forgets that they are holding a stallion.

 

[~Lisa~]

I find this kinda interesting. I was working at a QH show circuit and there is always a bunch of stallions they do roping and stuff and then show halter cause they while not being halter QH type need to do so to earn some kind of versatility award (called something different)

Anyway not uncommon to see people standing around in a circle either on horse or holding and 6-7 stallions all right there right next to eachother never even giving a sideways glance to the horses passing them or standing right next to them they are just expected to have manners and they do.

I guess it is different with our halter horses as we expect them to be "hot" or "revved up" and bouncing at the end of the lead to get that "look" as opposed to the stock type horses that walk in stand sqaure and will stand there forever like that

 

[txminipinto]

I find this kinda interesting. I was working at a QH show circuit and there is always a bunch of stallions they do roping and stuff and then show halter cause they while not being halter QH type need to do so to earn some kind of versatility award (called something different)Anyway not uncommon to see people standing around in a circle either on horse or holding and 6-7 stallions all right there right next to eachother never even giving a sideways glance to the horses passing them or standing right next to them they are just expected to have manners and they do.

I guess it is different with our halter horses as we expect them to be "hot" or "revved up" and bouncing at the end of the lead to get that "look" as opposed to the stock type horses that walk in stand sqaure and will stand there forever like that

Lisa,

It's also not uncommon for those QH studs to be doped out of their minds as well! Drug testing or no drug testing.

At least down here, on the Pinto circuit, which has several stock type horses most are shown in halter with a lip chain over the upper gum. The particular stud that I used as an example could be handled very well with a lip chain in place. However, it doesn't look very good with a cable halter!

 

[Jill]

Reble, I am curious so I'll just come out and ask... What are all the shows you've been to and observed these badly behaved stallions? I guess maybe I haven't been paying close attention as I don't remember you posting much about the shows you've participated in. It's just interesting to me, as I have been to quite a few and bad behavior is the real exception to the rule.

 

[JWC sr.]

I agree with the statement that there are way too many beautiful stallions out in the real world to breed one that is sub-par in attitude or conformation.

But with that said one thing I think we all overlook when dealing with show horses (particularly young show horses) is the fact that horses large or small are herd animals. They need and thrive on the socialization from being around other older and stronger horses that teach them "manners" so to speak.

In the big picture the constant sparring, nipping, chasing of horses within a herd is something you see all the time.

But with many of the show horses that are really good ones, they are taken into the barn as young horses, pampered, groomed, do not have a lot of contact with the rest of your herd and they develop bad habits. If these are not corrected by someone that is knowledgeable they get worse and manifest themselves into biting, kicking etc etc.

Let me relate an example using one of our horses for an example. I bought one of our herd stallions La Vista Farms Rose's First as a weanling. He was a gorgeous little guy and I fell in love with him. He was small and had really good confirmation. As a weanling he was reserve national champion out of a class of 46. The trainer is a very good one and the colt was born on the trainers farm and not on Susan's farm in California. So we left him with the trainer to be shown.

The little guy was left at the trainers over the winter to show him again the next year. Being a colt he was kept away from the other horses for the most part and not herd socialized as he normally would be. He started developing the habit of biting and rearing shortly after the start of the second show season with him. He did well in the ring, but was becoming a little terror to deal with.

We brought him home and he got even worse, to the point that I was considering gelding him or shooting him whichever came first(joke). As a last ditch effort I put him in the pasture with 4 older geldings about his same size. The wars that went on for several months were epic around here. Additionally we pulled him up daily and groomed him, enforced the rules of good behavior(our space, his space etc), loved on him and basically tried to let nature run its course, putting a time table on him of 1 year to start to come around. OH!

Within about 3 months the turn around was dramatic, he is a real little gentleman now days and we enjoy being around him. He has gone on to produce many great babies for us over the last 5 or 6 years.

The point I guess I am trying to make is that many times we are the cause for many of the problems that our horses develop. Horses are horses even though they be small and when we do not deal with the minds as well as the physical attributes they have we are asking for trouble.

I cannot tell you the number of times we have seen unruly, bad mannered mini's being allowed to be that way merely because they were smaller and the owner either did not know how to correct the bad behavior or was not concerned about it. Only to see that same horse go to someone else that dealt with the problems and corrected them to benefit of the owners and the horse in question. Making the horse an asset as versus a handful to deal with.

By the way Carin, I applaud you on handling the situation you described the way you did. As always, I admire your ethics in handling things like this. Good for you. Sometimes a really good gelding is great end result. One of these days maybe folks in the nmini world will start putting as much value on good geldings as the rest of the horse world does.

 

[Reble]

Reble, I am curious so I'll just come out and ask... What are all the shows you've been to and observed these badly behaved stallions? I guess maybe I haven't been paying close attention as I don't remember you posting much about the shows you've participated in. It's just interesting to me, as I have been to quite a few and bad behavior is the real exception to the rule.

I do show and talk with miniature horse friends, we have shown here in Ontario Canada, We have shown at our MHCO, CNE miniature shows in Toronto, and fall fair shows in Ontario, some of these horses have gone to the AMHR Nationals. Not sure what difference my topic would make from what shows I have been too.