rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Negativity from sad experiences, not from malice, I can assure you.
Parelli people?
- Thread starter poniesrule
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poniesrule
Well-Known Member
I have had bad experiences from soooo many different people/methods/opinions. But that doesn't mean it's not a good learning experience. You don't always have to "like" the person to like some of the things they do. And the bad experiences are the best learning tools that help shape you to be who you are and how you do things on your own; learn from your mistakes, don't repeat them. I know for a fact that nobody is going to do things exactly like I do. And I know I'm not going to do it like they do. I think that's part of what makes the horse world in general such a great place. You can get the same results with different methods.
That being said, the games are turning out to be the best thing EVER for my gelding. He acts like he's not fond of any surprises in life, and the mental workouts are making such a difference! And since he's the one of the bunch I am wanting to show the most, I feel we are able to establish a bond that will last a lifetime through simply playing.
That being said, the games are turning out to be the best thing EVER for my gelding. He acts like he's not fond of any surprises in life, and the mental workouts are making such a difference! And since he's the one of the bunch I am wanting to show the most, I feel we are able to establish a bond that will last a lifetime through simply playing.
lucky seven
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't clicker training be just as good? Instead of using treats, praise being the reward?
Renolizzie
Well-Known Member
I'm just not interested in clicker train, LuckySeven, whether for dogs or horses. Just seems like one more thing to fiddle with
Maybe I'm missing something. I'll have to look into the Seven Games. Sounds like people are using them to build a bond with their horses. Trust is really important to me and I think it is important for my critters, too.
Maybe I'm missing something. I'll have to look into the Seven Games. Sounds like people are using them to build a bond with their horses. Trust is really important to me and I think it is important for my critters, too.
poniesrule
Well-Known Member
I LOVE clicker training, but it is one more thing to worry about. The whole point is to click immediatly at the desired behavior & I constantly fumble with it and end up having terrible timing thus defeating the purpose. Instead, I use a distinct whistle, I usually have my mouth with me
As for the treats, I use them initially when something is brand new & I really want to get them "in to" what we're doing. Generally the release & praise is the reward for the same reason I ditched the clicker... it's one more thing to worry about. Also, with the kids I don't want an over-excited mini nipping tiny fingers on accident.
Renolizzie- Personally, I like the structure the games provide, how there's only 7 basics (and you can change them up when & how you feel you and your horse are ready), & how easy they are to show a newbie/kiddo. The principles are the same with many other trainers in my opinion. Read up on the games, then ask yourself what works for you, and enjoy! You really don't NEED to buy anything, but a rope halter allows finer communication, and the carrot stick is a great aid, an extension of your arm. I buy the knock offs and make my own and have just as much success with them. You'd be surprised how many things you have in your garage or barn that will work the same way!
Renolizzie- Personally, I like the structure the games provide, how there's only 7 basics (and you can change them up when & how you feel you and your horse are ready), & how easy they are to show a newbie/kiddo. The principles are the same with many other trainers in my opinion. Read up on the games, then ask yourself what works for you, and enjoy! You really don't NEED to buy anything, but a rope halter allows finer communication, and the carrot stick is a great aid, an extension of your arm. I buy the knock offs and make my own and have just as much success with them. You'd be surprised how many things you have in your garage or barn that will work the same way!
When I hear the PP names it makes my skin crawl. Sorry but an "old" horseman like me who has been around the block with horses and a variety of trainers and mentors both good and bad for over 40 years can see right through this.
These are NOT horsemen. They are people who prey on the newbies who don't have any other real horse trainer to go to for real horse knowledge. They are brilliant at marketing themselves and nothing but stupid and hateful horse abusers. All they did was come up with a gimic....those games....and that is their big marketing tool. Playing games with the lives of people and horses should say it all.
If I want to play a game, I'il babysit my granddaughter.
If I want to dance, I'll get a guy.
If I want to train someone to sit down and play ball with me, I have a DOG, not a horse.
And who the heck wants to bounce a big ball of of their horse!!!!!!!!!!UGH!
These are NOT horsemen. They are people who prey on the newbies who don't have any other real horse trainer to go to for real horse knowledge. They are brilliant at marketing themselves and nothing but stupid and hateful horse abusers. All they did was come up with a gimic....those games....and that is their big marketing tool. Playing games with the lives of people and horses should say it all.
If I want to play a game, I'il babysit my granddaughter.
If I want to dance, I'll get a guy.
If I want to train someone to sit down and play ball with me, I have a DOG, not a horse.
And who the heck wants to bounce a big ball of of their horse!!!!!!!!!!UGH!
Minimor
Well-Known Member
like, like, LIKE Marty!!!
I have to say--what really gets me are the faithful followers who talk as if anyone who does not follow one of their NH gurus is NOT communicating well with their horse....as if only the NH followers are communicating in a natural, fun and acceptable way. Sorry to break it to them but it is entirely possible to treat your horse kindly and communicate well and make training fun for your horse without following any NH guru!
I have to say--what really gets me are the faithful followers who talk as if anyone who does not follow one of their NH gurus is NOT communicating well with their horse....as if only the NH followers are communicating in a natural, fun and acceptable way. Sorry to break it to them but it is entirely possible to treat your horse kindly and communicate well and make training fun for your horse without following any NH guru!
lucky seven
Well-Known Member
Marty, you said it best. Thank You!!!
I have seen 3/4 of the big-name trainers mentioned here at Equine Affaire. I didn't mean to sound critical, but I have been around since the 80s, as well. I do agree with the take the best things from each method as your approach, but none of this takes rocket science. It takes observation, sensitivity, confidence, and good old fashioned horse sense. Probably half of the audience of this forum has just as much horse sense but few of us are as sexy as the top male trainers. It just is a lot of the same over and over. Do you talk to your pregnant mare's belly? You can say you practice a Native American technique of foal imprinting, and we're no Dr Miller. Not a big thing. To each his own. I am speaking my heart on this matter. Do not allow it to offend or discourage you.
Hayley~Diaz
Well-Known Member
We had a 'natural horseman' come to our place years ago because we had a quarterhorse that would not load onto a float. After about an hour he gave up, stressed the daylights out of our mare, charged a hefty bill and left. Haven't touched one since. That's my experience lol.
I once purchased a mare, never been caught and hardly been handled. She was in a very good sized paddock and it took me about two days to catch her. The funny thing is, I will always remember that time. It was the only time I REALLY paid attention to me and her - the way she reacted when I moved. I learnt the very valuable tool of action - reaction. I learnt so much more in that short period of time of sitting in that paddock reading her than spending large amounts of money reading and watching natural horsemanship dvd/books. Believe me, I have watched a few of the parelli (sp?) dvds and not thought much of them. Just my opinion
I once purchased a mare, never been caught and hardly been handled. She was in a very good sized paddock and it took me about two days to catch her. The funny thing is, I will always remember that time. It was the only time I REALLY paid attention to me and her - the way she reacted when I moved. I learnt the very valuable tool of action - reaction. I learnt so much more in that short period of time of sitting in that paddock reading her than spending large amounts of money reading and watching natural horsemanship dvd/books. Believe me, I have watched a few of the parelli (sp?) dvds and not thought much of them. Just my opinion
lucky seven
Well-Known Member
I remember years ago when I first started riding that I bought the VHS of GaWaniPonyBoy. One of his methods he taught was to just sit quietly in the paddock with the horse and take notes on how the horse moved, thought and acted. I always enjoyed reading John Lyons magazines along with what I took from PonyBoy. To me they were the best.
tagalong
Well-Known Member
PonyBoy is not even all native American. It was all a gimmick - and after friends ended up cleaning the stall and feeding and watering the guy's horse (Kona? Kota? Something like that!) because they were stabled next to him at one Equine Affair type thing and dear Pony Boy could not be bothered to do so… it just confirmed my opinion of him.
And sitting and quietly observing is not something you need some gimmicky trainer to tell you to do. It is just common sense.
As far as Monty Roberts goes - he is a fraud for the most part. His assertion that HE and only HE has ever discovered "the language of Equus" has always made me laugh.
He had a Join Up demo where I lived years ago - it was to help benefit the local Therapeutic Riding program I was involved with so I ended up helping out "backstage". What an eye opener.
Friends were contacted to provide him with the horses he needed. My friend was a great trainer, quiet ,understanding and with a lot of horse sense. He found Monty a young, untouched 3 year old QH filly to work with, as well as a few others. I helped him trailer them in to the demo site. To help calm the fractious ones down, my friend had loaded up his favorite older gelding who loaded himself and was broke to death.
Monty and his aide looked over the horses when we got there. His Highness dismissed one gray gelding as "too stupid". He said he would use the broke gelding for his "trailer problems" horse. When he was told that would be silly as the horse loaded himself… MR winked and said "but the audience does not know that".
The poor filly got chased around MR's special metal mesh round pen until she was a sweaty mess - and her nose was scraped up from running into the metal. She had not read how she was supposed to "join up". She got more and more upset and then MR announced that she "had a screw loose" and she was dismissed. MR was constantly looking at his watch - too bad the horses did not go by the time he had decided they would be "fixed" in.
The next horse was green broke but needed some work - MR got him all lathered up as well and then to our surprise had one of his helpers go to get on that horse - when everything about that horse's body language said NO NO NO!!!
Predictably, the helper got bronced off and hurt his arm. People were walking out of the building. Non-horse people seemed to be hanging on his every word, though. The Super Magical Horse Whisperer was awesome to them.
He was an arrogant jerk.
And my trainer friend later started and "fixed" the horses the great Horse Whisperer could not deal with.
****
As an aside, I went to 2 Pat Parelli clinics up in Alberta back in the mid 90s - before all the Savvy gimmicks and 3 ring circus and nonsense that he has now. Just him. He drove his truck & trailer from place to place. No helpers. No assistants. No gimmicks. I am glad I saw the real PP before he morphed into what he is today, He was a great horseman. He worked wonders with horses then, always quiet and soft and sensing what they needed and how he could best work with them. He treated all the participants great as well. He was out in the arena until late into the evening, willing to help as long as people and/or horses needed him. I was just an auditor both times - and even the auditors got to be very involved. When the horses were bedded down for the night, about 8 of us sat around with Pat in the barn aisle and talked horses into the wee hours.
I wish THAT guy was the one you see now. NOW you could not pay me to go to a Savvy weekend…
.. not the same guy at all.
And sitting and quietly observing is not something you need some gimmicky trainer to tell you to do. It is just common sense.
As far as Monty Roberts goes - he is a fraud for the most part. His assertion that HE and only HE has ever discovered "the language of Equus" has always made me laugh.
He had a Join Up demo where I lived years ago - it was to help benefit the local Therapeutic Riding program I was involved with so I ended up helping out "backstage". What an eye opener.
Friends were contacted to provide him with the horses he needed. My friend was a great trainer, quiet ,understanding and with a lot of horse sense. He found Monty a young, untouched 3 year old QH filly to work with, as well as a few others. I helped him trailer them in to the demo site. To help calm the fractious ones down, my friend had loaded up his favorite older gelding who loaded himself and was broke to death.
Monty and his aide looked over the horses when we got there. His Highness dismissed one gray gelding as "too stupid". He said he would use the broke gelding for his "trailer problems" horse. When he was told that would be silly as the horse loaded himself… MR winked and said "but the audience does not know that".
The poor filly got chased around MR's special metal mesh round pen until she was a sweaty mess - and her nose was scraped up from running into the metal. She had not read how she was supposed to "join up". She got more and more upset and then MR announced that she "had a screw loose" and she was dismissed. MR was constantly looking at his watch - too bad the horses did not go by the time he had decided they would be "fixed" in.
The next horse was green broke but needed some work - MR got him all lathered up as well and then to our surprise had one of his helpers go to get on that horse - when everything about that horse's body language said NO NO NO!!!
Predictably, the helper got bronced off and hurt his arm. People were walking out of the building. Non-horse people seemed to be hanging on his every word, though. The Super Magical Horse Whisperer was awesome to them.
He was an arrogant jerk.
And my trainer friend later started and "fixed" the horses the great Horse Whisperer could not deal with.
****
As an aside, I went to 2 Pat Parelli clinics up in Alberta back in the mid 90s - before all the Savvy gimmicks and 3 ring circus and nonsense that he has now. Just him. He drove his truck & trailer from place to place. No helpers. No assistants. No gimmicks. I am glad I saw the real PP before he morphed into what he is today, He was a great horseman. He worked wonders with horses then, always quiet and soft and sensing what they needed and how he could best work with them. He treated all the participants great as well. He was out in the arena until late into the evening, willing to help as long as people and/or horses needed him. I was just an auditor both times - and even the auditors got to be very involved. When the horses were bedded down for the night, about 8 of us sat around with Pat in the barn aisle and talked horses into the wee hours.
I wish THAT guy was the one you see now. NOW you could not pay me to go to a Savvy weekend…
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rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
I remember when it all started up over here and yes, I had heard all that about the so called "pony boy" and I always did take all the hype with a HUGE spoon of salt. I would never, and never have, follow a single line of training. Each horse, whatever breed or height, is unique unto itself and should be treated thus, in exactly the same way that I treated each of the children in my class as an individual. There is far too much conformity in the world as it is, we do not need to add to it, and those animals on the ends of our leads? 9 times out of 10 they are HORSES not SHEEP!!
I am glad someone got to meet the real PP and I am glad that there is one- it makes you realise where all the hype began. Do you remember that Robert Redford movie "The Electric Horseman"? Reminds me of that (corny though it was) .
If you are training a horse you need to look at what that horse NEEDS of you, NOT what you want to make that horse do.
I am glad someone got to meet the real PP and I am glad that there is one- it makes you realise where all the hype began. Do you remember that Robert Redford movie "The Electric Horseman"? Reminds me of that (corny though it was) .
If you are training a horse you need to look at what that horse NEEDS of you, NOT what you want to make that horse do.
poniesrule
Well-Known Member
I agree with Rabbitsfizz.... there is too much conformity.
Doesn't mean we can't take the same ideas and use them though. Case in point, I have a 3 yo gelding who is full of try & LOVES playing the games. I have never felt more connected with a horse, and I've worked with hundreds. I can't wait to try dressage in hand, and "playing" these games is helping me read him, and him read me, along with creating a seamless line of communication. It's what I know and what I am comfortable with, doesn't mean everyone has to do it or else they are a poor excuse of a horseman. On the other hand, my daughter's 4 yo gelding HATES the games with a passion. Does that mean I don't try it or I tip-toe around them? No, but I change the way I do things because I know he needs a different kind of communication. He needs a strong leader, not someone asking over and over, but someone telling. And for some reason unknown to me, he has chosen my daughter as that leader & I am pond scum... I refuse to force him to do things how I want to, but we work through it and figure it out. And that (imo) makes me a better horseperson. The flexibility and understanding that peronalities are all different and adapting myself to fit the needs of the horse, not forcing the horse to adapt to me.
Doesn't mean we can't take the same ideas and use them though. Case in point, I have a 3 yo gelding who is full of try & LOVES playing the games. I have never felt more connected with a horse, and I've worked with hundreds. I can't wait to try dressage in hand, and "playing" these games is helping me read him, and him read me, along with creating a seamless line of communication. It's what I know and what I am comfortable with, doesn't mean everyone has to do it or else they are a poor excuse of a horseman. On the other hand, my daughter's 4 yo gelding HATES the games with a passion. Does that mean I don't try it or I tip-toe around them? No, but I change the way I do things because I know he needs a different kind of communication. He needs a strong leader, not someone asking over and over, but someone telling. And for some reason unknown to me, he has chosen my daughter as that leader & I am pond scum... I refuse to force him to do things how I want to, but we work through it and figure it out. And that (imo) makes me a better horseperson. The flexibility and understanding that peronalities are all different and adapting myself to fit the needs of the horse, not forcing the horse to adapt to me.
lucky seven
Well-Known Member
You all have valid points about all the NH trainers that are out there now and used to be there. What I don't like is what they expect everyone to pay for what is common sense. You don't need an expensive carrot stick (what ever that is), go to you local tack store and find something you can use in its place. You also help your local store stay in business. The only one I really liked was John Lyons. So far I haven't read or heard any negative comments about him. PAT Parelli may have been good in his beginning years and mean well but his books and dvd's are just beyond what I can spend. Of the two I think he has more "horse" sense than Clinton Anderson.
poniesrule
Well-Known Member
Lucky Seven makes the best point of all (again, my opinion). You don't have to pay anything to develop any of the techniques shown by any NH "guru" With a little imagination, I have made my own carrot stick & rope halters with whatever I have at home. And the internet is a wealth of FREE information and videos. That's what I love best
.
When I started this discussion, I was looking for tips and fun anecdotes relating to wins & losses with the 7 games. I also asked to not start a heated debate. However, I am enjoying reading everyones opinions and views. And I think everyone does what they do best.
Ok, ducking out again
When I started this discussion, I was looking for tips and fun anecdotes relating to wins & losses with the 7 games. I also asked to not start a heated debate. However, I am enjoying reading everyones opinions and views. And I think everyone does what they do best.
Ok, ducking out again
JMS Miniatures
Well-Known Member
To each their own when it comes down to it whether or not that all these people are complete frauds or whatever you want to call them. IMHO I don't care who you like if one of these guys have saved your horsemanship skills or saved the lives of horses period then thats good enough for me. I just want a good horse that is willing to do what I ask of it no matter what training it has had.
With that being said I'm not a Parelli fan, I am a CA fan, perhaps not as big as I once was a few years ago but I cannot deny how much better my horses have performed starting his method. One horse I was never able to train him to do halter obstacle my way so I put him thru the method and now he is a Hall of Famer in Obstacle in 3 years and the first year into it he placed 3rd at AMHR Nationals in the open halter obstacle class. One who I hall of famed with in Obstacle he never placed at Nationals, I put him thru the method and last year he placed. Not only has it helped in obstacle but in jumping and driving as well. So thats what works for me, I know many here think its a waste of money but if you need any insight to horse training don't hesitate to look for help.
With that being said I'm not a Parelli fan, I am a CA fan, perhaps not as big as I once was a few years ago but I cannot deny how much better my horses have performed starting his method. One horse I was never able to train him to do halter obstacle my way so I put him thru the method and now he is a Hall of Famer in Obstacle in 3 years and the first year into it he placed 3rd at AMHR Nationals in the open halter obstacle class. One who I hall of famed with in Obstacle he never placed at Nationals, I put him thru the method and last year he placed. Not only has it helped in obstacle but in jumping and driving as well. So thats what works for me, I know many here think its a waste of money but if you need any insight to horse training don't hesitate to look for help.
Cutting my own throat here...but I like Pat and Linda Parelli. I was "sucked in" and bought the beginner series of dvds when they first came out. They taught me a lot! When I got my 1st mini, I didn't have any "common sense" as it relates to horses and training them. I had to start some where and the Parelli system was the 1st thing I saw on RFDTV that made sense to me.
If you haven't seen the system as it was meant to be seen and used, You really can't make blanket statements about it. A few bad moments caught on tape or hearsay do not make a program worthless.
It was simple/easy and they are very clear with their instructions. I made my own "carrot stick" and rope halter. My mini and I learned together. We are doing fine and I have used what I learned to train my other minis. Now, I don't follow the training to the letter, but do what works for the horse(or mule).
I have also incorporated other techniques from other NH trainers I've seen. I don't necessarily like all their styles but they all have good things you can glean from watching them.
Flame suit on,
and off my soap box
If you haven't seen the system as it was meant to be seen and used, You really can't make blanket statements about it. A few bad moments caught on tape or hearsay do not make a program worthless.
It was simple/easy and they are very clear with their instructions. I made my own "carrot stick" and rope halter. My mini and I learned together. We are doing fine and I have used what I learned to train my other minis. Now, I don't follow the training to the letter, but do what works for the horse(or mule).
I have also incorporated other techniques from other NH trainers I've seen. I don't necessarily like all their styles but they all have good things you can glean from watching them.
Flame suit on,
shorthorsemom
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I personally like to take a few training ideas from various sources and work them into something that agrees with my personal style and what I like in my horses. I have never enjoyed following any trainer totally.
I do know what Marty is saying about certain trainers techniques making your skin crawl. Cesar Milan does that to me. I cannot stand his training techniques. He is not educated and I consider his force and flooding techniques offensives. I do however agree with his thoughts on dogs needing exercise for a healthy mind and I agree that positive bodylanguage is a good thing. So even though I don't like the majority of what he says and does..I can get some useful information from his program.
so..do I follow parelli..no...do I use some of his bag of tricks in training... absolutely. And just for a chuckle..I did once own a horse that loved having a big ball bounced at him. Lol.. best wishes.. my advice is follow your heart use your head and don't follow any one trainer totally. Cheers
I do know what Marty is saying about certain trainers techniques making your skin crawl. Cesar Milan does that to me. I cannot stand his training techniques. He is not educated and I consider his force and flooding techniques offensives. I do however agree with his thoughts on dogs needing exercise for a healthy mind and I agree that positive bodylanguage is a good thing. So even though I don't like the majority of what he says and does..I can get some useful information from his program.
so..do I follow parelli..no...do I use some of his bag of tricks in training... absolutely. And just for a chuckle..I did once own a horse that loved having a big ball bounced at him. Lol.. best wishes.. my advice is follow your heart use your head and don't follow any one trainer totally. Cheers
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Good grief. Candycar, it is a bit more than
A few bad moments caught on tape or hearsay .
Have you watched the Catwalk debacle? That went on over three HOURS!
Have you watched the video of LP with the half blind mare? Again, over a few minutes, WAY over!
No, sorry , whatever they once were they are now horses abusers, plain and simple. They can stay away for the UK form now on, they are not welcome. TBH I do actually think enough people were offended that they would not be ABLE to return.....
A few bad moments caught on tape or hearsay .
Have you watched the Catwalk debacle? That went on over three HOURS!
Have you watched the video of LP with the half blind mare? Again, over a few minutes, WAY over!
No, sorry , whatever they once were they are now horses abusers, plain and simple. They can stay away for the UK form now on, they are not welcome. TBH I do actually think enough people were offended that they would not be ABLE to return.....
