"Pet Quality" the term and its implications

[Jill]

I also saw that ad and :no:

Bet you anything for every one of "those" ads we see, there are a dozen others pursuing the same ideal in minis.

In my book, breeding horses should be show quality horses and I mean the ones that can win in halter / model.

I think a huge number of people get into breeding minis thinking it's an elite thing to be breeding horses and of course, think they're going to make some money.

Add to the above the big number of people who think they know how to evaluate good conformation and good type when they don't, and that's why there are so many "pet quality" minis to be had.

Because the minis are small, people do not seem to give them the type of respect and consideration that they should.

 

[lvponies]

But what about the people who genuinely want minis for pets who have no intention of showing or breeding them? The grandma who wants a pet for her grandchildren to love? The young couple who want their children to learn about horses with something more their own size? These kinds of folks don't want to spend thousands of dollars on a show quality mini with a pedigree that walks on water. They just want a cute little mini to love. I know alot of you say to go to auctions or rescues and pick up a horse that needs someone to love and care for them. I agree with that, but what if there is no auction available? What if they don't feel capable of taking on a horse with issues? I feel that there is a pet market out there and there are breeders who cater to that market.

 

[Jill]

I think lvponies is right and there are breeders who cater to that "pet" market. BUT, I wish there were not. I've never seen a mini that was "too good" to be a pet. They all can be a pet if that is what their people want them to be. Even the best quality horses will sometimes produce something that is only pet quality due to conformation issues so there will always be pet quality. But, a show quality mini can also make a very nice pet.

 

[capall beag]

Pet quality is just what I want right now

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I think my Fairy and Angel are quality pets.....like Rabbitfizz said they are lovely and conformationally correct but not exceptional looking mares. I don't intend to breed them again.

They are the perfect minis for me.....I trust them completely, they have hearts of gold, friendly loving mares and excellent Momma's

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I do think there is a danger in completely seperating these two group though, I have seen it with dogs where show dogs woudl make unsuitable pets and pets are so poorly put together they are unhealthy.

IMO every mini should be bred for conformation AND temperament, because all breeding qaulity horses will at some point retire and all pets should be conformationally correct.

However, horses for courses, pun intended

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I have 3 foals and Theo is my absolute favorite......I simply adore him and he is a definate keeper. He is not refined and elegant like Kerry but he is very special, to me he is priceless As is his Momma! They are lifers here

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[Littleum]

But what about the people who genuinely want minis for pets who have no intention of showing or breeding them? The grandma who wants a pet for her grandchildren to love? The young couple who want their children to learn about horses with something more their own size? These kinds of folks don't want to spend thousands of dollars on a show quality mini with a pedigree that walks on water. They just want a cute little mini to love. I know alot of you say to go to auctions or rescues and pick up a horse that needs someone to love and care for them. I agree with that, but what if there is no auction available? What if they don't feel capable of taking on a horse with issues? I feel that there is a pet market out there and there are breeders who cater to that market.

Breeding the best to the best does NOT result in the best. It's a genetic roll of the dice every mating. Quality to quality stacks the deck in your favor, but it does not gurantee it. Any breeder who tries to tell you every one of their foals is always Grade A Future SuperStar, well.... barn blind or is "puffing" at best and dishonest at worst. It's just NOT true!

And it's not to say anything BAD about a program, a farm, a person or a horse it's just the one single greatest truth of horse breeding:

"Breed the best to the best and hope for the best" (well, that and a watched mare will never foal? :bgrin )

EVERY breeder has culls that are just fine for loving and adoring- and can be had for very little. EVERY single year I see breeders with "cull" babies who need a loving, less-ambitious home. Price tag anywhere from $500 - $1,500, frequently WITH papers.

The great quandry is that these "culls" are frequently not nags- they're just medicore. They're often not what I'd call "pet quality, unsuitable really for anything but cuddling", but because we have such a grossly underdeveloped middle market activity arena, there's no other job for them but "pet". If they're not quality enough to hack it at the "recognized shows" they get tossed in the pet catagory for lack of any other way to market them.

It's not like in big horses where the market has so many shades of grey in the quality required for each tier of showing that all but the most sorry nags can find somewhere suitable to show and be successful.

There is no where for these medicore-to-pet horse to go except pet homes... until we create a place for them to go (and believe me, I am 110% in favor of this!!!!!!), and something for them to do, we need to be responsible stewards and not *intentionally* make more. It's downright irresponsible and selfish- and I really don't care how many toes (or who they belong to) I stomp on in making that statement.

"but all I want is a few cute foals to love every spring..." :new_all_coholic: If I had a dime...

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

I think Dona's answer pretty much sums up how I feel about it too. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy horses that costs thousands of dollars, just so they can say they have "show quality mares" , and what happens when those "show quality mares" produce a foal that is less then show quality..you have pet quality. There is nothing wrong with a pet quality mini as long as they are confirmationally correct, and I have seen some pet quality minis, that are being shown by youth in 4-H, and are doing great. It makes the kids happy and they learn alot from it. For the small shows like that , which are youth oriented, these little lovable pet quality minis work out great! Some of these horses have gone on to reproduce and the offspring are doing great in smaller (4-H ) shows also. Without the pet quality minis how many of our youth would be able to afford a mini? I am not referring to pet qualitys that have some serious issues. I have some mares that I consider "pet" but the foals they have are super, and I have been told by quit a few seasoned breeders..definite show quality. So, IMO--pet quality are valued animals, just as much as show quality. Corinne

 

[BlueEyedPony]

I haven't posted in quite a while, but felt the need to jump in here with yet another perspective. There are also the horses that are marketed as pet quality that simply have not found their niche in life yet, and once they do are worth their weight in gold. This type is a personal favorite of mine, as they are a sort of "diamond in the rough." When I got my Duncan, he was shaggy, untrained, unregistered, unruly, and would bite or kick as soon as come near you. But at 6 years old, he had had minimal handling and had never been separated from his dam. I got a GREAT price on him, and 2 years later he is the BEST horse I have ever had, big or small (and I've had some fantastic horses). He drives like a machine, and patiently carries my 4 year old nephew around for pony rides whenever it is asked of him. I can trust him with anything, and he has been nothing but fun to be around. The kicking and biting disappeared after 6 short months of consistent handling, and his personality is good as gold. Sorry to turn this into such a brag post, but I felt the need to share a different perspective. I would never breed him (obviously, he's a gelding), but the other side of the coin is that the irresponsible owners who had him as a youngster didn't see fit to geld him until he (accidentally) bred his own mother. Just goes to show how the same horse in different hands can be an asset or a detriment to the breed. As far as showing, we'll have to see what this year brings, but I have a hunch he's going to knock the socks off the other horses at the ADS shows!

Here's my boy Duncan last summer:

And when I got him, 2 years ago:

 

[Whitestar]

The one thing that comes to mind when people ask for "pet" quality, is more about price of the horse than the actual quality of the horse. You notice this in the laundry list of straight legs, good bite, colors, good pedigree. So I see their request of "pet" quality means they want the very best horse they can find for the "pet" price they can pay. What should concern us all is the fact that if someone is only willing to pay $300-$500 for their "pet" what happens when colic rolls around or a bad foaling? That $500 horse just had a huge vet bill attached to it than many people whether pet or show or breeding or whatever are faced with paying. NO matter how much money your set aside for emergencys, with animals it never seems to be enough some years. Most breeders have great years then they have those nightmare years of huge vet bills sick horses, foal losses. It is hard to make people understand how different minis are then bigger horses when it comes to foaling. But then again we all hear about they mini breeder in the next county that has a couple mares & one stud & they just live in a pasture with no special care, pop foals out one two three with no problems, no health problems etc. Then there are those of us that keep detailed records of shots, worming, buy the very best for our horses & never skimp on care & never leave the house during foaling season & still end up with all sorts of problems. It seems the luck of the draw. Someone told me once that breeding miniature horses can break your heart if you let it. When bad things happen all mini owners question whether it is worth the heartache. guess they have to answer that for themselves. I have found that when I use to tell new owners about the risks with foaling, you could see the disbelief in their eyes. One one hand you dont want to scare people away, but on the other you have to educate. The best education for the public is the local clubs, where everyone can get together for fun things & they health seminars that local breeders can offer to put on. Breeders truly interested in helping the Miniature horse breed will be happy to share their knowledge of the miniature, whether pet, show or breeding, Tony Greaves of Little America is probably the best of the best when it comes to that. So "kind" education is the best teacher but no one wants to be told that their beloved baby whether they spent $100 or $10,000 is not the real quality they see when they look into those big brown eyes, but people will do what they want in the end.

 

[Anne]

JMHO,

there are lots of "pet quality" minis out there.

Pet quality minis should be beloved pets, driven, groomed and well cared for, and not be bred deliberately, to create more.

The BEST breeding program creates "pet quality" minis, (they can't all be top quality no matter how hard you try,) I don't understand why people feel the need to breed for them.

 

[nootka]

I never meant to imply that "pet quality" was inferior only perhaps for the purpose of making more minis, for whatever shortcoming that brought them to the "pet" designation in the first place.

I sell pet quality at pet prices when I have them!

For example, we had the most sweet little palomino filly here. She was a little "person" in horse clothes for all I could figure out. She wanted nothing to do w/her dam at birth and would seek people out whenever possible. As she matured, however, it became apparent that she was fairly heavy boned for her size, also she had the misplaced dome on her forehead and she was developing an underbite due to severe restriction of her skull. Her wolf teeth grew in behind her front incisors her mouth was so crowded. This WAS genetic, and combined with her "so so" conformation, I decided she would only ever BE a pet. I looked into spaying but found it was ridiculously expensive, considerably risky and just beyond my reach at the time.

So I sold her for $500 w/both of her papers to someone who understands the limitations and the need for her to "stay" a pet. This mare was well loved and cared for, trained and even shown during her lifetime. She is now a beloved pet. I, who like to think I also breed and show good, sound horses, produced my share of pet horses in the roll of the genetic dice and my own ineptitude.

I did not send this horse to an auction, nor did she ever lack for wormer, vaccinations, farrier, feed, or vet care.

The ones I see producing the mass amounts of "pet" horses for the under $500 sale, are generally not addressing these issues in the interests of higher profits. Not all, but most.

I think if someone DOES want a mini to love for her grandkids, a pet for loving, like I said originally, look at the auctions, the rescues, and check w/local breeders. Chances are someone has a little one that needs to be culled from the breeding herd and may in fact be fine in every other way. I know it happens a lot in this region where a beloved broodmare has a terrible dystocia or just won't get in foal and they would place her if they knew for sure that she would be loved and treasured as they need her to be.

So I guess what I would ultimately wish is that those that are looking to breed more pets would concentrate on finding those that already need homes, I know there have to be hundreds in any given region, for a very reasonable price.

If they come here and recognize their quote, I have not really been super critical of anyone, I don't think. If I have, I'm sorry. I did not name names or give any other clues, so they have not been "outed" so to speak.

I would be more than happy to discuss my experiences and observations with someone, to let them see my mistakes and understand my point of view, and listen to theirs.

Liz M.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt] As was said breeding the best to the best we still get horses that we consider pet quality for very subtle reasons.... I have seen LOTS of horses on this and other boards that I feel are pet quality and they are part of people breeding programs....the whole dang program is full of pets but, everyone sees their horsese thru their own eyes. and yes I can say that I have one that I consider pet because she is old style and doesnt have the look that my other horses have but.... I do breed her so that the people that want that "oet" can buy a conformationally correct and healthy baby for a less than exuberant price.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Minimor]

Pet quality should not be bred IMO. Now, you can have show/breeding quality horses that are pets, and you can have show quality horses that are actually not breeding quality--I've seen some national champions that are perfectly wonderful individuals, but when it comes to breeding those wonderful looking horses couldn't produce anything. In my mind that makes that horse show quality, but not breeding quality. Likewise someone mentioned you can have a horse that doesn't look too spectacular, yet it produces show ring winners--well, then you have a breeding quality horse that isn't show quality, and not what I'd term pet quality either, even though it might look like pet quality, at least to some people. If you've got a pet quality mare producing foals that go on to win national championships then I don't consider that mare to be truly pet quality!

 

[nootka]

I just fail to see a shortage of nice pets and I hope the ones that don't care about their animals are run out of business somehow (I know, I'm dreaming).

I truly have no problem with someone breeding specifically for sound and loving, good-minded pets, however I do think there is a limited market for it and noone should be shopping around just looking for whatever they can get together that has the capability to foal.

I guess I'm jaded from having seen a lot of terrible things, even before I got minis, add that to a bad week and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. What I originally meant was to kind of get a feel for the general consensus and differing opinions on what the term pet quality meant to them and how they used it, how others took it, etc.

Liz M.

 

[KanoasDestiny]

This is all very interesting, and I understand and respect EVERYONE'S opinions on the subject.

:

But I have a question. As everyone knows by now (

: ), I am in the process of buying a filly who was born with a bad bite. She is being sold as "pet quality". Her bite has since corrected itself and so far so good.

Now, I know that she would never be breeding material, and in no way would I ever jeopordise her just for a foal, but the current owner, who shows professionaly, said that she could probably be "shown"(except in halter). I have showed pictures of her to other people who also show, and they said that if her bite stays right on, she could probably be shown in halter as well. My question is this...if she is sold as "pet quality", can she become "show quality" if she can win ribbons (without the being breeding material)? Or is it once they have been labeled, they pretty muchly always keep that label?

I'm not interested in showing, BUT if I do ever happen to get interested in doing it, I would just like to know. Thanks.

 

[Jill]

My question is this...if she is sold as "pet quality", can she become "show quality" if she can win ribbons (without the being breeding material)? Or is it once they have been labeled, they pretty muchly always keep that label?

I'm not interested in showing, BUT if I do ever happen to get interested in doing it, I would just like to know. Thanks.

Really, the only way to get the answer is to show her at a miniature horse show w/ competetion in halter.

I've never bought a horse advertised as pet quality, however, I have bought some at "pet quality" prices (my opinion) and have seen them take halter championships. I've also bought a filly I thought was show quality and she grew up to be something I probably would not breed because she herself is not what I look for in a horse. Yet she's better than what a lot of others would absolutely breed.

Basically, you could post pictures of your filly posed right so we could all really see her, and you'd get responses ranging from pet quality, breeding quality, show quality. Partly because a lot who will respond don't really know and partly because these terms means something different to different people.

You'd get your answer about if she's show quality if you take her to an AMHR or AMHA show and see what happens.

Hope that made sense.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

There does seem to be some confusion among breeders and buyers as to pet quality and pet price.

When we have people that want 'just a pet' come out, they're generally wanting to pay a pet price, not necessarily have a wonky pet. I've sold pets for $1,500-3,000 and they've never done more than sit in a pasture and I've also given away or sold for a fraction of their cost minis that I've found the perfect 'pet' home for them.

I have a buyer that is waiting for me to have literally a 'brown pinto' and he's ready to buy it - whenever I have it. This year or next, that is what he wants. It will be a pet, sit in their pasture - he has someone feed, groom and the vet comes out monthly to deal with his horses. He has a very good eye and won't buy junk. He wants to look at really high quality minis and large horses like someone that collects art. To me that is a fabulous life for a horse, it doesn't always serve my personally as a good example of our breeding is going to be sitting in his yard, but the horse will have a fabulous life!

It really is important for a seller/breeder to understand what a buyer is looking for in a mini. If someone does want a pet, it is important to educate them about why they should not breed it if it's truly pet quality. Our pet quality minis (have conformation or breeding issues) are unsound in some respect. To me there is a difference between an unsound mini and one with a fault or flaw in their conformation.

As for can a pet be a show horse - sure! It can be shown in performance - halter isn't all that is available!And depending on the competition at your local shows you'd be surprised how well you might do. It also depends on how realistic you are with showing. If it's for fun then go for it. If you're thinking you're headed to the Nationals with a horse the current owner has advised isn't halter quality, well . . .

 

[Jill]

Very well said, Michelle

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[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I agree with the fact that IMO pet quality means the same thing as a pup sold on limited registration, the breeder or seller feels this horse is a pet for a reason. It isnt something most breeders say lightly

a horse can show in performance and still be pet quality you can have a halter class full of pet quality horses (which means non breeding to me) and they can all come out with ribbons and STILL be pet quality horses.

Obviously it is in the eye of the beholder as some are sure there horses are top quality when others might feel very differently

 

[MountainViewMiniatures]

I should just clarify that when I mention show quality I am talking about conformation (halter) classes where the horses are judged on conformation to the ideal of the breed- pet quality horses can be shown in performance classes and have alot of fun doing it for both the exhibitor and horse and is just as competitive and hard work getting your horse conditioned , trained , groomed etc

My term of show quality is in no way to put down pet quality or pet horses just to designate in my mind a term to mean conformation/breeding animals just like my Shih Tzu - where a dog show (show quality dog) in the strictest terms means conformation classes for breeding dogs - so a show quality dog is a dog that can be shown in breed and/or used for breeding purposes. Performance classes for dogs are not called shows they are called Matches (for obedience classes) or Trials (for field dogs and agility dogs) -

 

[dtdminis]

I agree with the fact that IMO pet quality means the same thing as a pup sold on limited registration, the breeder or seller feels this horse is a pet for a reason.

I'm a really, really small breeder. My stallion was campained lightly because I am not rich. He is a 3 time AMHR National Champion - in driving and halter ... and I do not consider all of his foals breeding material. they are not conformationally unsound, they just are not as good as I would like to see. They could probably show - maybe even in halter at local shows, but they will not improve the breed.

I have often wondered, with the market being so saturated, and the quantity of poor quality miniatures growing by leaps and bounds, why the registries don't learn from other organizations (like the AKC) and add a "Limited Registration" option. I know that unscrupulous and greedy breeders will always exist, but, a "Limited Registration" would give reputable breeders, large and small, a way to "enforce" the decision they make regarding the horses from their programs. You may well be able to educate the person who originally buys a horse from you, but if they ever leave the hands of that buyer ... it is out of your control. If a horse left your farm with "Limited Registration" papers, they'd go with him/her for life.

It doesn't seem like a very difficult or expensive idea - it could be added to papers the same way "Parent Qualified" is added.

Is this such a far fetched idea???

Nan

Dare To Dream Miniatures