We have met the enemy...

[Pippin']

I'm just kind of popping in because I've had some experience with the after affects of bad breeders. My little guy, Pippin, was sold to me because the breeder had lied to the owner about his age, height, registration, and a number of other things. The owner fell in love with him but he bought him for his grand kids but his grand kids wanted an older already drivable gelding that they could show AMHA\R so the gentleman finally sold him because the girls wanted noting to do with him. It turned out good for me because now I ave a loveable little boy who is well on his way to being cart trained and his hopefully heading to his first show (just to watch) net month.

Another example is my pinto gelding, Ace. While he's not a Mini he was still victim of a bad breeder. Ace's mother was purchased by a man because he had a "purtiful spotted stallion" (seriously what the add said) but this stallion was unhandled, unregistered, and really butt ugly. The guy bred the mare to his stallion and out comes Ace. The man apparently wanted a registerable buckskin paint (remember the sire is grade) and was extremely upset when his chestnut mare didn't produce a buckskin foal from his black pinto stallion. Anyways he sold Ace and his dam to a lady and told her he was going to register Ace with the APHA but when he didn't she sent Ace and his mom to a "rescue" (read hoarder) and one thing lead to another until we ended up with a sweet (though dumb as a door nail) grade pinto gelding who is the light of my life (next to Pip) though not with out his health and conformation faults.

I guess where I was trying to go with this is, yeah bad breeders shouldn't be breeding, but it's also up to the buyer to ask a million questions, request everything needed, and run for the hills if the red flags pop up.

Sorry if I jumped off topic I'm on a major caffeine high right now.

 

[AngC]

OK - off my soapbox. Fire away!

READY, FIRE AWAY... ok, here goes. (Since nobody has provided an intelligent comment on what constitutes a reputable breeder.)

What a condescending pile of poop.

It's not apparent from your signature whether you are a breeder Jean_B, but if you are, it's no wonder that your potential customers have headed off for Craigs List or wherever to get their parrot-mouthed horses. Your whole attitude treats potential customers as morons. Who on earth, in a depressed market, would want to buy from someone that oozes from their pores that their customer is an idiot? Really?

 

[Jean_B]

I am hoping that NEW people who have never had exposure to miniatures (and many new miniature owners never had 'bigs' either) would take the time to learn BEFORE they buy, rather than scrambling to fix a mess AFTER buying. SO many requests for information here and elsewhere are from people who purchased a mini but now are totally stumped by certain behaviors, or because of condition that is going backwards, and I commend them for asking!!!!! Just wishing they had done their homework earlier, but at least they are asking! My post was intended to reach those who are THINKING about getting their first mini and to ask themselves..."Am I ready?"

Never had any trouble selling any of my foals, yearlings, bred mares, geldings (gelded the VAST majority of my colts before selling), breeding stallions, etc. in the 22 years I've been breeding minis (and was breeding quarter horses for 20 years before that) and never had to resort to CL. In fact, several of my horses are now overseas on several continents. And if I sold to a "newbie" I gave them explicit information/instructions on proper and timely care, along with recommendations on where to find good farriers in their area, connected them with equine dentists, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Carolyn R]

It is tiresome hearing the same topics year after year, being graciously answered year after year, tons of great advice being given....year after year, pointers, worming schedules, vaccination schedules, info on dental care, handling advice hoof care...so we all know the info is out there. If someone wants to creep and explore past posts or google info on minis on the web, LB always pops up with oodles and oodles of helpful hints, even what to look for in a seller and what should be a red flag, how to match yourself up with a mini that will reach your expectations and your level of experience ( ex. Not a wise choice for someone with zero experience to get a rescue with multiple health and behavioral issues) this forum is full of caring members and people that have been at it for a long time. There isn't even a need to become a member to read or search past topics. However, inevitably, there are people that jump in feet first, meanwhile there head is in the clouds. While I applaud everyone that is trying to learn and continues to educate themselves, it is frustrating to hear the same topics....help I bought a mini off of CL cheap cheap cheap, owner was a nut, couldn't leave the neglected animal, now I am having issues getting registered. Have a mare that foaled dwarf, asked breeder for pics of previous foals, they all look dwarfy.....previous owner gave me papers but they are still in origonal owners name,....mare is AMHA, stallion was AMHR, how do I register the foal?!!!!......mare needs to be brought perm AMHA, she is 37" what division does she go in?!......
Dealing with a knowledgeable, responsible breeder that is guided by a moral compass is priceless, especially if someone is new to it all. As a breeder, it wears one down. It is no wonder why so many of the old timers have decided to scale way back or stop all together.

 

[AngC]

I would like to apologize, please.

....Whenever anyone trots out the geld, geld, gelding topic, it yanks my chain.

I consider myself a newbie; in another 10-15 years, I might be less new. I focused on several comments in the original post and probably reacted.

We stumbled on ownership of mini horses. I had absolutely no plans to have any sort of horse. Then my husband ran across an auction ad and kept at me and kept at me. And I caved in. We bought unregistered horses. I tried to plan ahead; for example, I read here on the forum that some people haul their horses around in mini vans. We have a big truck and a little truck. I looked at our trucks and thought: well, I’d throw a pig or a cow back there but not a horse; so we bought a horse trailer. I kicked the fences, checked the barn and tried to make sure we had adequate housing. I lined up a vet and a farrier. I set up an allotment to a savings account in case of health issues, beyond the normal care. (Nicky’s eyeball injury wiped that out.)

The whole registered vs unregistered yanks my chain too. At least I’m not out in the pasture peering through their hair trying to figure out if my appaloosa has spots. My husband loves our baby so much he wants another one. Bet that one would have spots too.

As a dumb-butt newbie, there’s about ten million question I’d like to ask here, but most of the time I don’t want to take the flak. So I try to read and get ideas and learn.

 

[Scooter]

It is tiresome hearing the same topics year after year, being graciously answered year after year, tons of great advice being given....year after year, pointers, worming schedules, vaccination schedules, info on dental care, handling advice hoof care...

I wonder if it would be possible to have a separate area within the Forum where newbies could safely ask questions and long-term members could avoid going to if they find these types of questions tiresome?
I think one of the most valuable things about this forum is interacting with experienced horsey people - it really helps to feel that you have other real live people involved in the rearing of your horses... Otherwise, why not just go to Amazon an buy a book?

However, for those who have become a bit burnt out providing this support, maybe my separate Forum idea might help...

 

[Carolyn R]

No one minds answering questions, that is the purpose of this being an informative forum. It is not arrogance that many longtime breeders and owners are trying to portray, but rather frustration. Yes, some of the members are very blunt about the right and wrong way to go about ownership. There are one hundred different ways to get to a good end result with minis, but there also is a formula for disaster that we have seen end badly time and time again over the years. I think it is only fair to look at my entire statement, that the info is given year after year, it is well documented on the forum, if one chooses not to ask, all they must do is use the search engine to find the answers.

It is completely refreshing to see individuals seriously seek out info for several months prior to jumping into a purchase, or individuals that think long and hard before adding another mini. Too many rush out and acquire a mini as if they were choosing a goldfish to add to an aquarium. It is a long commitment that should be planned for...housing, care, health, life expectancy, correctly choosing the age of a mini to suit what expectations one has for it, the obligation should be taken seriously, and long term goals or objectives should be considered prior to bringing one home. These pearls of wisdom are what a good breeder or owner will try to uphold and share, but so many whimsical owners make a conscious choice to buy first and ask questions later.

 

[Minimor]

I guess I dont see what can possibly be offensive or annoying about the geld, geld, geld topics? I wish that more people would open their eyes and see the value of gelding their colts, and I wish more people could see more value in their geldings! Geld, geld, geld is excellent advice for many, and not just the newbies. I have never believed in keeping everything a stallion, and I dont believe in selling one as a stallion if it isnt truly stallion qualityhere if its to be sold as a gelding it gets gelded before it leaves our possessionI have gelded many and a few of those I have gelded have been excellent quality, better than what a good many people keep and use as stallionsthis is particularly true of my ponies! I just gelded a nicely conformed two year old that is one of the most talented, athletic horses I have ever come acrossand that is in comparison to full size horses too, not just the little guys. Geldings make up over half the herd hereand I dont have a small herd, so that means there are a good many geldings on the place! So, it is difficult for me to see any problem with the topics on GELD, GELD, GELD!!

 

[Jean_B]

AngC - not sure where you got the idea that my post was about needing to geld. It was intended to hopefully get those thinking of getting into minis to ask themselves if they were ready,and to become informed BEFORE buying. Regardless of how you read my post, DON'T stop asking questions!! The ONLY dumb question is the one in someone's head but they don't ask. THAT is dumb.

Scooter - I think a separate forum for the 'long-term members' would be counter-productive to the intent of having any type of forum at all. If there was one just for those who have been around a long time so that they could 'avoid' newbie's questions.....WHO would be answering those folks' questions? We already have the capability to choose which ones we choose to read and/or respond to. I think the reason so many are feeling burnt out is because in so many cases, someone comes on here asking a question....and after lots of give and take, responses from people who have been at this for a long time....and then responses from the person posting the question, it is readily apparent that the poster has NO intention of listening to any of the suggestions from those with lots of experience, that they were just looking for corroboration for their own idea and have no intention of listening to anything different...and then when they get called on it - they ask the Mods to remove their entire thread. Thankfully...for the sake of the horses...those people are few and far between and the VAST majority truly do want to ask and learn.

 

[bevann]

I like the idea of having newbies ask questions and hopefully those of us with a bit more experience will have good answers. NO QUESTION IS A DUMB QUESTION!!if you don't know something please ask. I sold 2 nice little Mini mares to a family who wanted pets for their daughter.They did not want to breed.Child is home schooled and IMO in severe need of socialization.They bought another BUTT ugly colt from another breeder because daughter wanted a baby.Turned it out with the 2 mares-went out 1 morning a found a baby(I watch my pregnant mares&even slept in the stall with them&still lost foals) Now they have 2 colts but they have seperated them from mares because colts tried to mount daughter. Sometimes you just can't fix STUPID in spite of all the education and directions you give with the sale of Minis or any animal. The dad in this family is DEAD SET against cutting off any male parts.

 

[BigDogs & LittleHorses]

It seems to me that what is needed here is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) area. These are used to prevent topics continually popping up and going in circles like described above.

One of the questions presented obviously should be "Should I geld my colt/stallion?". The benefits of geldings and drawbacks of stallion ownership, and the overpopulation problem could be presented in a neutral non-judgemental way, but it should also be stated that one can responsibly own a stallion if that is what he or she wants.

"Should I breed my mare?" is another one that is needed. One of the veterinarians here has stated that it is the single most dangerous thing you can do with your mare. I think that is a sobering statement that needs to be emphasized.

Putting up fair answers with pros and cons that allow the owner to make the best decision for him or herself is the way to go. Treating the asker of the question like an intelligent person is a must.

 

[Scooter]

Well, I for one have benefited greatly from the advice I've been given and although some of it was a bit "blunt" I still keep coming back for more - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

I bought a second mini because a very nice member here told me Scooter needed a playmate, I got the new mini (Simba) gelded yesterday because of all the geld, geld, geld advice, I will be gelding my first mini when he is ready... I've learnt and actioned so much great advice.

Yes, it's frustrating that people don't do their research first. However, for the sake of the wee horses, people need to be encouraged and strengthened here so that they learn quickly how to cope. Making people feel inadequate is the quickest way to ensure their horses end up in a shelter...

 

[REO]

I think THIS main forum IS the place to ask questions. It's always been the best learning place. There is a SEARCH BOX where people can look up any topic they want before they jump in to ask their own questions (fresh ones please, instead of popping up years old threads)

AND there are tons of INFO pages here at LB if people want to find them.

AND a whole "best of" forum right here to be found.

I always used to ask for there to be easy to find links to the info pages etc. And a welcoming pinned topic on how to use the search box and find the other forums.

If ever there is an especially helpful info thread, ask one of the mods to move it to the "best of" forum to be saved there.

Debby always does her best to make LB the best place to be!

 

[AngC]

I’ve been reading this thread and mulling over the responses. And really, really, tried to be honest with myself.

I’ve come to the conclusion that:
1.] I don’t much like blanket statements/proclamations.
2.] If your horse isn’t registered, it’s a piece of garbage (that’s my perception based on some of the opinions I read here.)
3.] I feel guilty because I allowed two unregistered horses to breed and even worse (apparently) I am awfully tempted to allow them to breed again.

The necessity of gelding stallions is an example of a blanket statement: To quote Jean B, “a stallion has one thing on his brain when he reaches a certain age and it certainly isn't listening to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.” I don’t know what I’m doing most of the time, but of our three, he’s the easiest to work with. For example, he taught me how to lunge and still does it better than I do. I’m always dropping something or getting all tangled up. So when someone says something to the effect that stallions are hard to handle, my knee-jerk reaction is that they ought to take a trot around the pasture with our Craigs List mare. And as I considered (and still do) the gelding issue, all it took was to read one post here about problems with gelding an older stallion. He’s separate but happy as a blind horse can be, I think.

I mentioned unregistered horses, because the original post seemed enthusiastic about reputable breeders, and I’m assuming one way to supposedly find a reputable breeder is to buy a registered horse. I was raised in an environment where looks didn’t matter; their aptitude and ability to perform the work at hand were what mattered. I realize times change, but I can’t quite wrap my brain around some of the (what seems to me) arbitrary criteria of what some people feel is attractive. I’m still reading about conformation and trying to learn. Our mare would probably flunk a whole bunch of those criteria; I’ve been trying to explain this to my husband. Granted my choice of terms is “off” since I tell him things like: “according to the horse forum she’s ugly” which generates a negative response from him. I don’t really believe it either, because when she throws her head back, cranks her tail up, and goes for a gallop around the pasture, she looks like a little Arabian. Not to mention, although she’s a bit difficult, whenever I’m doing anything outside she’s always the one waiting, watching. She’ll stand there for hours; God forbid you try to put a halter on her though.

Anyway, I still wonder how you figure out who is a “good” breeder. If you believe UC Davis, in the quarter horse world, Impressive sired about 2,200 foals and has 55,000 potentially HYPP progeny out there. I would imagine that some of them must have come from “good” breeders. Somehow, that makes it seem like my one Baby doesn't matter when compared to that track record.

We didn’t buy horses to try to earn money. We bought them for enjoyment, and although the return on our investment has included some heartache, overall we have been hugely rewarded.

By the way, I can well imagine that some folks get tired of dumb newbie questions. But I would like to thank you because I read the responses and think about them and buy books on Amazon and ask the vet, the farrier, the neighbor, the mailman, whoever, and then come to my own decision hope that I made the correct decision.

 

[Debby - LB]

I don't mean to continue off topic here but I wanted to say I would hope this forums members never get so jaded as to not be willing to help new members. This Miniature Horse forum is where the questions belong and I hope that when we get repeat questions that some of the older members who have answered them before will step in and answer again or at least point them in the right direction by adding links within these forums where they can find their answers. Remember we all were newbies at one time and when you come to a new forum and are excited to learn.. it's nice to be greeted with patience and not like it's too much trouble to say it again.

Like Robin pointed out we do have a "Best of" forum where we move the best frequently asked questions and we also have Information pages that are found in the navigation at the top of the page, or from the Lil Beginnings main page.

Anytime there is a really good informational topic/ thread that you feel should be put in the "Best of" forum please email a mod. with that request so we can review it.

I would Love in depth articles like suggested above! "Should I geld my colt/stallion?" and "Should I breed my mare?" to add to the LB info. pages.!!