Pics of collection and extension

[rosaroca]

Do you have some great pics of your horse collecting or extending in harness? If so, here's your chance to show them off! Post them for all of us to admire.

 

[Ferrah]

This was my gelding HP Spyderman in an extended trot. He was not the most talented mover, so this was about the best he could do at the time. He showed in country pleasure.

Spyder in a collected trot. I would have liked to see him pushing from behind more, but this is the best I have of a collected trot.

This if the full brother to the horse above. Cinnabar is in an extended trot here. He was only 30" tall and had been driving for only two months when this photo was taken. He was showing in country pleasure here, but he would have been perfect for the classic and western country pleasure driving division. He moved just a like a hunter.

And just for comparison this is Spyder's conformation. His neck comes out high out of his shoulders which made the higher country pleasure headset more natural to him. He doesn't have as high of a neck set as a single pleasure horse would have though,'

And this is Cinnabar. You can see that his neck does not come out from his chest nearly as high as Spyder. This makes him carry his head and neck naturally lower than Spyder did. You can force a horse like this into a country pleasure headset, but it won't be pretty and you'll make your horse sore pretty quickly. The difficulty in training a horse like this is that they have a tendency to crash on the forehand and lug on the bit, which Cinnabar did until he had more correct training under his belt (or girth!).

I hope these were what you were looking for!

 

[jegray21]

this is aces learning to collect...beginning of his training...

here is is learning to extend...its just a lengthening trot at this point....

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Nice topic! I've wanted to share some photos of what is and isn't collection/extension for a long time but unfortunately a lot of my best examples have never made it to the computer.

Minihgal is in Belgium right now but her girls are the only example of true collection (by classical definitions) I've seen in a mini. Lord knows my boy never got there!

I have lots of great examples of what ISN'T collection from him and I. We were getting good lengthenings though and a very nice working frame at all gaits.

The following are critiques of my own photos for educational purposes. Feel free to ask any questions, I'm posting them with the intention of having others pick them apart for discussion.

This is Kody in 2007 at a breed show. He's working in a nice frame and tracking up but I would by no means consider this "extended" despite his good reach as it lacks power and oomph. You can see that the "V" of his forelegs is wider than that of his hind legs, indicating he's still pulling himself along with his forehand to some extent. This was a nice transitional frame as he first began to elevate his forehand and get his hindquarters underneath himself.

A nice lengthening but he's about to fall on his forehand if I don't rebalance him with my hands.

A few minutes later, still not extended (note that his foreleg is not at maximum extension) but showing much more power from the rear.

This is Kody in 2008 doing a good powerful working trot which could serve as a foundation for an extension. See how he's now moving uphill with his hindquarters deeply flexed and his hind legs working up under him?

A moment of mild natural collection, showing increased bounce and elevation in the stride without changing tempo. His head and neck are not working down to the bit but he's responding to my shortening aids by stepping up under himself with power. This is a good beginning!

My favorite photo, and the only one I have that shows true extension. He isn't overstriding due to his conformation but look at the power from the rear, the uphill slope from croup to poll and the reach in the foreleg! He's giving me the most he's capable of in this wonderful uphill frame.

To be continued....

 

[hobbyhorse23]

From 2007 as Kody was beginning to learn to elevate his forehand but still depended strongly on my support to stay there:

If this weren't a canter departure it would be an excellent example of true collection.

His head and neck show tension but he's stepping incredibly deeply under himself and carrying his weight on flexed hocks.

This is NOT collection. See how he's being held up by my hand as he falls forward over his foreleg? His hips are flexed but they aren't taking his weight. (Yes, this is another canter departure but maybe I can show you what to look for in a horse's overall balance.)

A breed-show style trot. He is reaching under himself but there is tension throughout his back and the upper triangle of his neck is completely hollow. You can see he's holding the lower curve of his neck tightly as he resists my contact for a moment.

Here, at the end of 2008, is a nice lengthening. It lacks the uphill nature and "spring-loaded" power of an extension but is very forward and he is holding this balanced frame with minimal support from me.

I have some really educational examples of not-true-collection (Kody overbent, evading my aids, shortening his strides by hollowing through the back, etc.) from 2008 but don't seem to have those photos online. Bummer!

Leia

 

[Minxiesmom]

Good education, Leia! This is a great thread. I am learning!!! More photos please.

 

[Relic]

Here's my fave guy from this year.. it's only a pix he's fat and needs to still drop pounds am working on it. He seems a lot more mature and can go a lot faster this year doesn't look like a sewing machine zipping down the field OMG that was wimpy to look at

l did 8/10 trot poles every other day for months with him making them further apart every other time out l think that helped a lot..anything else l can do to help him extend better..

 

[targetsmom]

Great thread and thank you Leia!!! Your pics and the explanations are wonderful!!! And thank you for pointing out that it would be pretty rare to find true collection in a driving mini. My riding horse can do it; he won his share of show hack classes, with the judges often commenting that he was the only horse in the class that showed collection and extension at all the gaits. (FYI, Show Hack is suitability for dressage, and requires collected, normal and extended walk, trot and canter, plus hand gallop. Yes, that is ten gaits, each way of the ring).

 

[hobbyhorse23]

(FYI, Show Hack is suitability for dressage, and requires collected, normal and extended walk, trot and canter, plus hand gallop. Yes, that is ten gaits, each way of the ring).

Hehe...been there, showed that, got our own collection of ribbons! If Spyder had been born after the Sport Horse division was created for Arabians I have little doubt he would have been a big name National Champion and I would never have met him.

The poor horse was wasted on English Pleasure in the 80's.

Now I do need to apologize to Rosaroca for taking over her thread. People mean different things when they say "collection" and "extension" and I took her to mean the classical definitions and acted accordingly. The non-dressage meaning of "collection" is usually just that the horse is being ridden in a balanced, rounded frame rather than going around strung out and of course many of the horses on this thread are doing that just fine. "Extension," by relation, is usually used to mean they are reaching far out with their forelegs. Again, many minis do that wonderfully.

I mean no offense to anyone by using the classical definitions! It's just that we so rarely get to discuss that and show examples and I was kind of excited to do so.

I hope that's not a problem.

Leia

 

[jegray21]

Awesome pics Leia! The canter transition is a good example of the horse sitting behind, dropping in the croup. I would say that its not a collected trot but defiantly a moment of collection...

here are a few more of ace but in the long lines...here is is still learning and developing but he is get the idea of how to sit and shorten stride then push and fully lengthen stride. Due to his long back it is very hard for him to over stride which a good sign of a true lengthening.. I do believe at least in the ridden horses a true extended trot comes from a collected trot and is uphill..those horses do not over track but just track up.

Liking the technical terms

I was using the forward and back transitions within the trot gait to get him to sit a little then push a little...this will help him get stronger...

here he is actually starting to go up hill...still a little tight in neck..

 

[jegray21]

Trot poles are great...you can raise them a little to teach the horse to articulate the joints and get better overall movement and suspension. I always love lots of transitions on a circle...lengthen trot, collect trot, then all over again...I usually only do three or four strides of each so the do not start to fall on forehand. Hill work...

 

[RhineStone]

We just got back from the Columbus Carriage Classic on Father's Day weekend (Alax & I were the big winners

!), but I was looking at photos last night online and came across these of us in Town & Country Obstacles (like a small Cross Country course).

http://photos.kimkuh...d12e1#h2f3a7970

(I can't post the real photo because I don't own it.)

We are getting much better at extension (but only when HE decides to "turn it on"

) He had a really good pass in front of the judge in Turnout, but there were times during the other classes and esp. Town & Country that he wanted to pop a shoulder into a canter so I had to bring him down. Chad noticed that he drops his head before he does that, so maybe if I work on getting his head up (which is something I want to do anyway), we can forego the cantering, esp. when I don't want it.

I had to use my MiniBrook instead of my Phaeton Cart for this show because the ground was on the verge of squish, and last year we were slowed down a bit with my Phaeton in the mud. Two weekends/shows in a row of thunderstorms and mud, and I think that I have had my share for the summer!

There are also photos of our VSE tandem in the Multiples Scurry photos. Chad didn't show the whole division because the schedule wouldn't allow it, but there are great photos of the leader cantering most of the course! He ended up winning Scurry because Alax DIDN'T canter, and both horses have to break for it to count against the turnout. However, the judge placed him 3rd of 3 in Turnout for the same reason. You can also see the point by the chainlink fence where Alax got his leg over the leader trace. I guess that is what you get for not practicing with the tandem this year before the show!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

(I can't post the real photo because I don't own it.)

I hope you plan to soon!

That's a heck of a photo! The ones of the tandem are awesome too.

We are getting much better at extension (but only when HE decides to "turn it on"

) He had a really good pass in front of the judge in Turnout, but there were times during the other classes and esp. Town & Country that he wanted to pop a shoulder into a canter so I had to bring him down. Chad noticed that he drops his head before he does that, so maybe if I work on getting his head up (which is something I want to do anyway), we can forego the cantering, esp. when I don't want it.

He has to drop his head a little in order to round up into the next gait so yes, technically preventing that will keep him in trot. That's why the Standardbred folks use overchecks! What I saw in some of those other photos though is that he doesn't seem to be getting enough rein support at that moment of greatest extension so he's falling forward and probably feels that he has to canter to "keep up" with himself. They also break because the work has become hard and he's definitely attempting something that represents the ultimate in physical effort so again, support him! Support, support, support. You don't want to block his energy or get hard on his mouth but consider the energy running through him to be like water in a dam- it is flowing very hard at that point and takes a strong wall to contain it and send it cycling back through the body instead of spilling out.

He looks great though, and that one photo is really amazing!

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

Thanks Leia, I'll have to go back and look at other photos and analyze that when I have more time to see what you are seeing. It's good to have another pair of eyes, especially when this is something I really want to master.

He didn't really achieve what I call "fifth gear" during this obstacle class. When he does, it's kinda like holding a fire hose, there is so much forward momentum without any chance of breaking. He gets that most often #1- on the way back to the trailer after a class, #2 - certain obstacle courses where he knows he has nice, long stretches, #3 - once in a while at home through the woods. I think he had varied moments of fifth gear during this class, but more likely is was about a 3 1/2 - 4. I need to be able to ask for and get fifth gear at any time. It's when the impulsion = desire. Last year at Hickory Knoll, he got fifth gear for Chad in the Marathon. Alax did his first K in 4:35!

If I can harness that, we would smoke obstacles!

not

!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Thanks Leia, I'll have to go back and look at other photos and analyze that when I have more time to see what you are seeing. It's good to have another pair of eyes, especially when this is something I really want to master.

I'm thinking particularly of what I see in this series of three photos, starting with 0992 and ending with 0994. There's a lot of energy and thrust there and he's pushing off his hind end very powerfully but that energy isn't being collected and balanced in his upper body. I like your fire hose analogy- I couldn't quite think of the right words to describe what I was picturing!

I was thinking of our local hydroelectric dams where the water is channeled through smaller and smaller spaces until it picks up amazing force, and of how strong the walls have to be to contain that kind of living power.

Last year at Hickory Knoll, he got fifth gear for Chad in the Marathon. Alax did his first K in 4:35!

I hope he can do better than that!

My little 33.5" guy does his first K that fast almost every time and I know Alax is a lot more powerful than Kody is.

He ought to be able to hit small pony times routinely when he's cruising.

Leia

 

[Kendra]

I love that photo Myrna! And congrats!

 

[CZP1]

Great pictures. Leai as always you explain things right to a T, excellent for beginners to see the difference. Myrna great picture of your horse, he looks like an upper level dressage horse.

 

[RhineStone]

I'm thinking particularly of what I see in this series of three photos, starting with 0992 and ending with 0994. There's a lot of energy and thrust there and he's pushing off his hind end very powerfully but that energy isn't being collected and balanced in his upper body.

I think I see what you are seeing. I haven't collected him here, just let him trot on. I couldn't do that course at fifth gear because the show manangement decided to measure each vehicle and make the cones 35 cm wider than the widest vehicle in the division. For a Scurry course, they were a whole lot closer than when I walked them!

I am used to that type of course being a Pick-Your-Route, where cones are set at 2.5 m (8'3") for everybody, so we were going to slide through some of those cones "sideways"

. We went to plan B and had to reduce speed, but like you see, I really wasn't asking for much. We did make it through clean, but much slower than initially expected. I think those photos are actually from my final pass after I had went through all the cones and was headed for the Finish, so I kinda threw him away asking for speed. I can assure you I didn't do that in the judged classes!

I wish the photographer took more side shots in the arena classes, but she seemed to have gotten more head-on shots. A friend of mine took video of my Victory Pass for Reinsmanship. I want to get a hold of that and post it on YouTube sometime.

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

Myrna great picture of your horse, he looks like an upper level dressage horse.

Thanks. I don't know about the upper-level dressage horse

, but he is coming along! That is the really fun part, I don't think he is done, but I have to learn how to get more out of him!

And to think, he was SO difficult to train and a couple of years ago, he was INCREDIBLY heavy in my hands that I hated driving him. I only kept it up because I felt he had so much potential.

My friends, I "bought" this horse for a quarter... yes, $0.25! I post this to encourage you all to keep working on it! My motto this year was "stolen" from Kendra, "Practice so hard, they think you are lucky!" The other one is from my son's school play song, "Don't compare yourself to all the rest. Do your best, do your best, do your best!" I hang these in the barn to keep motivated and keep my mindset "proper". Practice and pray.

I can't wait to see what else Alax has to give.

Myrna

 

[susanne]

Hey Myrna, I have you beat -- Mingus was FREE. Someone thought he was a throwaway...I beg to differ.

I'm glad you were there with that quarter.

Alax looks fantastic in these shots. I learn so much just looking at photos of you two!