Please answer honestly

[runamuk]

First of all, if you read my post, I said in the U.S. not every country. I dont live in any other country and cant do a thing to change what they do in another country so lets leave other countrys out of this. 
Second I never have and never will compare owning a horse to owning a cake. 

Third I knew SOME ONE would come up with some person down the lines who bred and raised horses for slaughter, but I refrained from saying anything like there is 1 in 10000 people who do that figureing every one knew darn well what I meant.

Fourth.... I like the idea of licensing to breed, I dont know why any one wouldnt. It would be a very smart idea all around. I think any ways.

And last... Who would raise a Thoroughbred of all breeds to slaughter? They are leggy, boney, and hard to keep weight on, not near as much meat on them as some other breeds 

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want to know the truth about the guy.....he was a slimeball...took horrid care of all his animals......often fed them old moldy bread and vegetables from a bakery/grocer.......why thoroughbreds......because at that time in Washington state there was an overproduction of t'breds for the track (then the track shut down) and they could be picked up at the t'bred sales for pennies on the dollar they are big grow fast and at that time horse was selling much higher than beef....... in fact at 1.67 cents a lb on the hoof we had a hard time out bidding the meat guys ..............this same slimeball also owned a very well bred quater horse stallion that had a bunch of national titles he used this horse to breed to his t'bred mares.........he once raised race horses then the money was better in meat.......happily for me he was eventually killed by one of his bulls so I no longer had to drive by and see his pathetic herd's..........

ok so you agree with licensing ....even if that means you cannot breed any of your horses? If you have produced 1 foal ever you are part of the reason there is slaughter..........you cannot blame everyone else for this problem if you yourself are producing more horses in an already over populated country.......I me myself contribute to slaughter by breeding and being involved with others who breed......we all horse people who breed are the cause of the problem.......the only way we can solve it is by not breeding.......people need to be responsible for their choices ....if I choose to breed then I am choosing to contribute to horse slaughter...maybe not directly but I am still contributing.........

 

[shminifancier]

I just talk to my friend Dr. Dave Olson DVM who has been my vet, and

is now practicing in Stephenville, TX. And the AAEP has not endorsed

these bills...Dave said if this was such a good thing and such a good

thing for horses, the vets would be doing more business in euthanizing

horses..You would have thought that these people would be backing the

bills but guess what they are not..Because it is not good for the

horse plain and simple..And Oh yes Dave has read that bill about

hauling horses etc. And He Also agrees that it is worded very badly

and the Extreme Animal Rights People can have a field day with it

after these bills are passed..Ok There is a vet who is practicing in

Texas that is also against the bad wording of this bill And Not just a

Friend said this and that. But a true veterinarian with over 30 years

of being in practice....Hmmmm another person and the AAEP that agress

with me. Hmmmm

 

[ilikemini's]

I answered yes but there should be some more choices. Pro Slaughter is not what most of the people are for. I believe we are Anti Badly worded legislation and bad bills. And for humane treatment of animals, of which neither of these bills stand for. But will only lead to more problems of the unwanted, unloved, and some that just don't give a darn. Where then are the sick, the old, the crippled going to be taken?

So not enough choices to pick from, which make the Pro Slaughter people sound like bad people, when it is badly written bills that could lead to more harm come to horses. And because it is worded poorly could effect all sorts of horse people whether hauling to slaughter or just to a vet, or just hauling from one place to another.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I do not contribute to the slaughter of horses if I decide to breed for one or two foals a year. If I have a horse that needs to be put down for humane reasons, I should be the one to see that it is put down and disposed of instead of taking it to an auction and then a slaughter house. In fact I am very much against the slaughtering of horses. There wouldn't be slaughtering of horses if there wasn't money made in doing it. When people have to take responsibility for what they bring into this world then the slaughtering of horses, perhaps, will stop. If every person who breeds horses to the excess that they have to be taken to the slaughter houses has to pay several hundred dollars for the disposal of them, then they will find it not cost effective to over produce. Let the people who produce horses that end up at slaughter be the ones to loose rather than the ones to gain from it being slaughtered. Make each person who breeds a horse that ends up at slaughter be the one to shoot the stun gun and slit the throat and then pay for the disposal of the animal. JMHO

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If you have produced 1 foal ever you are part of the reason there is slaughter..........you cannot blame everyone else for this problem if you yourself are producing more horses in an already over populated country.......I me myself contribute to slaughter by breeding and being involved with others who breed......we all horse people who breed are the cause of the problem.......the only way we can solve it is by not breeding.......people need to be responsible for their choices ....if I choose to breed then I am choosing to contribute to horse slaughter...maybe not directly but I am still contributing.........

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[New_Image]

Well, you may have been ok with them putting out the lights in a horse like Orion as long as it was done nice, and heck while hes dead he might as well feed some people, but I wouldnt be happy because if it wasnt for Orion I would have never owned my first miniature horse.

Runamuk as a matter of fact yes I would be perfectly fine not being allowed to breed any of my horses, Im not big into breeding, I dont breed to sell which is why I had to sell my stallion. I put one foal on this planet and both his sire and dam are very breeding quality horses, now that I have my one foal, I could really care less if I dont get to breed another horse, I just want this one. Sure Id like to breed a little down the road here and there if there comes a time for me to do so, not much, dont get me wrong I never plan to be a big breeder, really if I couldnt do so it wouldnt matter to me. Yes I agree with licensing, It would solve a lot of over population. I think there should be a limit to the number of foals a stallion can produce in a year, a number of foals the owner can breed for, and there should be restrictions on which animals are bred but we all know none of that will ever happen.

You know... (This is way off topic and more on the breeding subject) I decided not to breed Miniatures when I saw how minis on the market, at least here in MI the minis I have been watching, are just plain not selling. You have to give a good mini away. I figured, there are enough minis going into the world each year that arent finding homes or are causeing other minis not to find homes so why should I breed? I dont have to, I am pefectly happy training ponies. I realize breeding is adding to over population (obviously) and that leads to slaughter which I know has to be there but I am not a fan of it - while training is giving a horse a second chance to find a home. Its much easier for a pony to find a good long time home if they are well behaved, ride and drive rather then stubborn or un broke. Thus I swiched gears and really hope others will too for the horse markets sake.

Buckskin gal

 

[tagalong]

I do not contribute to the slaughter of horses if I decide to breed for one or two foals a year.

And therein ^^^ lies the probem in this country about licencing breeding etc. People say - not me. Not my fault. That is like saying if your dog had a litter "just for fun" it is okay and it will not affect the dog overpopulation... everything is affected - as somewhere down the line, some horse/dog/cat becomes disposable...

If I have a horse that needs to be put down for humane reasons, I should be the one to see that it is put down and disposed of instead of taking it to an auction and then a slaughter house.

If you read the earlier slaughter threads - I related the story of my old TB gelding... who I took directly to the "plant"... in the side door... and a competent and quiet man dispatched him quickly and without any terror. You CANNOT always "dispose" of a horse... especially a full-sized one. Many places ban such burials. And for many of us - the ground is frozen a lot of the year. I did what was best for my horse at the time. Many people DO NOT CARE and simply toss them aside. I would rather they went through the auction mart and then to the slaughterhouse (and were treated humanely along the way) than stand starving and freezing in a barren pasture til they die a lingering, painful death. It happens way too often now - eliminate the slaughterhouses - and the horses will actually suffer MORE. Yes - more.

There wouldn't be slaughtering of horses if there wasn't money made in doing it.

Well unfortunately - someone has to clean up the mess we leave behind. And money started the mess to begin with. Pointing fingers at the people at the end of the cycle is not fair....

If every person who breeds horses to the excess that they have to be taken to the slaughter houses has to pay several hundred dollars for the disposal of them, then they will find it not cost effective to over produce. Let the people who produce horses that end up at slaughter be the ones to loose rather than the ones to gain from it being slaughtered. Make each person who breeds a horse that ends up at slaughter be the one to shoot the stun gun and slit the throat and then pay for the disposal of the animal.

So then - just as an example... who will ID the horses that wind up at the slaughterhouses years down the road... and contact the person who bred them IF it is possible to do so

.... if only every one of us could track a horse for its lifetime and guarantee what happened to it years from now. ALL of us contribute to this. Small breeders. Big breeders. ALL of us.

Closing the slaughterhouses will NOT help. It will NOT be The Solution. At least AAEP - and many concerned horse lovers - can step back - look at the Big Picture - and recognize that. Those badly worded bills and the demand to immediately end slaughter and shut down the plants is extremely short-sighted... and REACTIVE... when we should be PROACTIVE....

 

[Buckskin gal]

When you take something said out of the context it was said it can loose all meaning.

I said I do not contribute to the slaughter of horses if I decide to breed for one or two foals a year and I mean it. I may contribute to more horses being brought into the world but I am not contributing to the slaughter of animals. I am against slaughter and will not contribute to it. And no one has to leave a horse standing or laying to freeze to death.. . I said nothing against your choice to take your animal to the slaughter house and have them kill it. It is something I would choose not to do. Many people do care and don't leave dead horses laying around if they have to put them down or they die. They can contact businesses who will come pick them up for $75 to $100.00. Better to haul them away after being put down then to haul them under unspeakable conditions while they are alive and then have them put to death. Horses do not have to suffer more, if slaughter houses were done away with.

. There is no law against a vet or an owner putting a horse down. If the ground is too frozen to bury them then call a business that picks them up and hauls them away. On the other hand, if I had a horse that died or had to be put down and it was too feezing out to dig a grave the body can still be covered with a load of sand or dirt and then when the ground thaws a hole could be dug to give it a proper burial. There are other ways of dealing with dead animals also but we have to give thought to them if we want something better. Changes can be made if changes are wanted ... with so many against the slaughtering of horses, I do think if there is a will, there is a way to have our horses avoid dealing with the fear and suffering that goes along with slaughtering.

I do not contribute to the slaughter of horses if I decide to breed for one or two foals a year.

And therein ^^^ lies the probem in this country about licencing breeding etc. People say - not me. Not my fault. That is like saying if your dog had a litter "just for fun" it is okay and it will not affect the dog overpopulation... everything is affected - as somewhere down the line, some horse/dog/cat becomes disposable...

If I have a horse that needs to be put down for humane reasons, I should be the one to see that it is put down and disposed of instead of taking it to an auction and then a slaughter house.

If you read the earlier slaughter threads - I related the story of my old TB gelding... who I took directly to the "plant"... in the side door... and a competent and quiet man dispatched him quickly and without any terror. You CANNOT always "dispose" of a horse... especially a full-sized one. Many places ban such burials. And for many of us - the ground is frozen a lot of the year. I did what was best for my horse at the time. Many people DO NOT CARE and simply toss them aside. I would rather they went through the auction mart and then to the slaughterhouse (and were treated humanely along the way) than stand starving and freezing in a barren pasture til they die a lingering, painful death. It happens way too often now - eliminate the slaughterhouses - and the horses will actually suffer MORE. Yes - more.

There wouldn't be slaughtering of horses if there wasn't money made in doing it.

Well unfortunately - someone has to clean up the mess we leave behind. And money started the mess to begin with. Pointing fingers at the people at the end of the cycle is not fair....

If every person who breeds horses to the excess that they have to be taken to the slaughter houses has to pay several hundred dollars for the disposal of them, then they will find it not cost effective to over produce. Let the people who produce horses that end up at slaughter be the ones to loose rather than the ones to gain from it being slaughtered. Make each person who breeds a horse that ends up at slaughter be the one to shoot the stun gun and slit the throat and then pay for the disposal of the animal.

So then - just as an example... who will ID the horses that wind up at the slaughterhouses years down the road... and contact the person who bred them IF it is possible to do so

.... if only every one of us could track a horse for its lifetime and guarantee what happened to it years from now. ALL of us contribute to this. Small breeders. Big breeders. ALL of us.

Closing the slaughterhouses will NOT help. It will NOT be The Solution. At least AAEP - and many concerned horse lovers - can step back - look at the Big Picture - and recognize that. Those badly worded bills and the demand to immediately end slaughter and shut down the plants is extremely short-sighted... and REACTIVE... when we should be PROACTIVE....

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[tagalong]

When you take something said out of the context it was said it can loose all meaning. 

I said I do not contribute to the slaughter of horses if I decide to breed for one or two foals a year and I mean it. I may contribute to more horses being brought into the world but I am not contributing  to the slaughter of animals.  I am against slaughter and will not contribute to it.

Buckskin gal... I did not " take it out of context".... What you explained above was exactly the "context" I understood - and what I was referring to. Contributing to more horses being brought into the world... DOES... in the long run... down the line... contribute to slaughter. Just as every litter of barn kitties contributes to feline overpopulation and euthansia. I was not pointing my finger at YOU specifically - just using your comment as a mild example of why it would be IMPOSSIBLE to regulate or licence breeding in any way... as no one thinks it would apply to them... or that it is a free country and they can do what they please... etc.

I said nothing against your choice to take your animal to the slaughter house and have them kill it. It is something I would choose not to do.

Ah - but you just did say something against it.

Not caring about the circumstances.... or why it was necessary. They "killed" him (he was a him and not just an "animal") as you chose to say (perhaps implying it was a cold-hearted tactical decision) .... and what I know was that the fellow who HELPED me that day treated that horse with courtesy and respect... and he was dead before he had a chance to fuss or fret... or endure the suffering that was coming from his ailments. And I was there with him. I killed him - I brought him there. The guy who helped was just doing his job. Do you like the sound of that better?? I know that I sent him on his way without fear or suffering - the best way I knew how.... because I cared...

  Many people do care and don't leave dead horses laying around if they have to put them down or they die. They can contact businesses who will come pick them up for $75 to $100.00. Better to haul them away after being put down then to haul them under unspeakable conditions while they are alive and then have them put to death. Horses do not have to suffer more, if slaughter houses were done away with.

No "knacker" around here picks anything up - even a mini - for that cheap. And there is only ONE company that does it. And you may have to wait DAYS. Many will not do that. Unfortunately - $$$$ talks. And many will NOT pay for the vet visit. Will NOT pay for a truck to haul. And will simply let the horse fend for itself... it happens now. It will happen then - in greater numbers - as there will be no alternative.

Changes can be made if changes are wanted ... with so many against the slaughtering of horses, I do think if there is a will, there is a way to have our horses avoid dealing  with the fear and suffering that goes along with slaughtering.

So many are against it - and many who care are also understanding (I hate to say this over and over) that it IS a necessary evil. They are not "for" it per se - eliminating the plants is just not a viable solution for the mess we are in. Closing the slaughterhouses all at once is NOT a change that will help. Again - I suggest people look at the big picture. The new bills are poorly worded and are only going to open the door to all sorts of reactionary groups and interpretations that could easily affect all of us. If the AAEP has the gumption to realize that and NOT support these bills... then I would hope some of us might take a minute to re-evaluate....

 

[Buckskin gal]

[]Tagalong

No "knacker" around here picks anything up - even a mini - for that cheap.

That is odd because the business that picks up dead horses here is from Washington..... I think it is Bakers Commodities. We did have a rendering plant here but since they went out of business it is either the graveyard for animals at the landfill or this business that handles the dead horses for our area. I am sure that other places have a disposal of animals within their communities also like we have had with the landfill.

 

[tagalong]

Well... *shrug* ... when a mini gelding died a year and a half ago the "pick-up service" charged $120 to get him - and only because I argued the guy down due to the fact that the little guy was the size of a calf and not a full-sized horse. There is apparently only the one company in this area... the name escapes me for the moment as the card is out in the barn. Not the one you mentioned, though. I was lucky... the poor gelding was put down on a Tuesday night... and they were coming through our area on the Thursday. And when he got here - the truck was full....

...just enough room left for our little guy.

I have no idea where that truck wound up... whether it was a landfill... or a rendering plant.

But Jimmy did not need the body that was failing him anymore.... he was free to run at last....

 

[runamuk]

Well... *shrug* ... when a mini gelding died a year and a half ago the "pick-up service" charged $120 to get him - and only because I argued the guy down due to the fact that the little guy was the size of a calf and not a full-sized horse. There is apparently only the one company in this area... the name escapes me for the moment as the card is out in the barn. Not the one you mentioned, though. I was lucky... the poor gelding was put down on a Tuesday night... and they were coming through our area on the Thursday. And when he got here - the truck was full.... 

...just enough room left for our little guy.
I have no idea where that truck wound up... whether it was a landfill... or a rendering plant. 

But Jimmy did not need the body that was failing him anymore.... he was free to run at last....

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let me help you there...I know the white and red trucks well

she is correct it is Baker commodities out of Seattle and they are one of the only rendering plants on the coast...it was tough over in Eastern Wa as it could take them a week to get there.......last pony I called to have picked up in fall city was in about......1994 after the big strangles epidemic and it cost 100 back then for about a 500lb pony......we have a local plant here and we are in the middle of cattle country....when I called a few years ago to get the price I believe it was 175......for a horse.......we still can bury here but at some point if you do this long enough the graveyard can get pretty big...and I will not ever under any circumstances bury anything that died or was put down due to contagious disease ......

well I still hold to if I breed I contribute because that horse I bred if I sell it could be taking the home of another that in turn ends up in the kill buyers truck........so I again wont be doing much breeding......as my one foal ever is one too many

........I would so love to sit with some of the people opposing my view and over coffee have a real conversation .....I truly enjoy a good strong debate and I learn alot from these topics........and not just about the topic

And Tagalong I do believe we are on the same page for probably alot of the same reasons.....

 

[Buckskin gal]

Well it is good to hear there are other businesses, besides the one I mentioned, that will pick up a dead horse so they don't have to be left if the ground is too frozen to dig a hole. That is a very resonable cost to handle a body of something no one else wanted to. Like I mentioned before, if everyone had to pay upward of several hundred dollars or more for their horse to be disposed of, after death, there may not be so many horses bred. Yes, if we breed one or one hundred we should be responsible for the cost of burying them or disposing of them when they die or have to be put down. It costs several hundred dollars to get a backhoe out to dig a hole, also, but that is the cost of having animals who never live forever. At least if I choose to handle the death of a horse by having it buried, I am not contributing to the slaughter of horses. Enough said

Well... *shrug* ... when a mini gelding died a year and a half ago the "pick-up service" charged $120 to get him - and only because I argued the guy down due to the fact that the little guy was the size of a calf and not a full-sized horse. There is apparently only the one company in this area... the name escapes me for the moment as the card is out in the barn. Not the one you mentioned, though. I was lucky... the poor gelding was put down on a Tuesday night... and they were coming through our area on the Thursday. And when he got here - the truck was full.... 

...just enough room left for our little guy.
I have no idea where that truck wound up... whether it was a landfill... or a rendering plant. 

But Jimmy did not need the body that was failing him anymore.... he was free to run at last....

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[shminifancier]

A few years ago I had a young steer just die..No reason just went out to feed in the AM and there he was deed.. Well i called for animal pick up Well that would be for a mink ranch..Abd even they wanted $125 to pick up a small steer...Gesssh years ago when I did that for a mink ranch we picked up free of charge...Well anyway i did not use them...I hauled that steer down by my manure pile out in the woods and there I let him go dust to dust... After all it was coming winter so I covered him up with some manure over him and poof He was gone by spring..And no 125 dollars either was spent on returning the steer back to the earth. After all dead is dead, no matter how you look at it.

 

[minicount]

I have started responding to this thread so many times, it just takes so dang long to don the amour.

I hate vague general statements they make me think you really don’t know what you’re talking about but want to sound like you do. You say “I would like to see it more humane†I say, “howâ€. Show your intelligence and be specific.

Preaching that banning horse slaughter will force breeders to take responsibility is like walking by a man beating his wife and saying, "boy when his arm is sore in the morning he'll have learned his lesson."

Come on, have you ever heard someone say, "I breed crap." Their breeding program might say it but talking to them you would swear it was the neighbor down that was the bad breeder.

Many landfills will not take carcass as BSE, Chronic Wasting, Hoof and Mouth and others simply make it more risk than is worth.

I'll admit like others the constant having to defend, not so much our "pro slaughter" stance but the reality of the situation gets very tiring. You get beat down by the constant barrage of people who are anti-slaughter WHICH IS FINE but have no facts or worse think they have facts when all they have is propaganda. I am tired by this debate and of the thought that being's I am "pro slaughter" I must not love my horses. We can compare pastures any time.

I hope this is not the only place you are doing your poll as it will NOT give you accurate numbers, (not saying they should be one way or the other), but the miniature horse world is such a small slice of industry it is not a fair poll.

It never ceases to amaze me the people who are anti-slaughter but do not get if they bred they are part of the problem. I am part of the problem, no matter how nice my colts are or how many disciplines I show them in or how many publications I promote them in I AS A BREEDER AM PART OF THE PROBLEM, no wait it's the neighbor down the road.

 

[Horse Hugs]

Oops, did I say that?