POLL CROSS ENTERING OF ASPC/AMHR HORSES AT SAME SHOW

[andi]

Slightly unrelated, but it has come up on this topic a few times. I understand the people who are bringing it up may just be playing devils advocate, but someone needs to speak up and say how wrong it is and something we all need to help prevent. It is the entire topic of the possibility of "Sueing" the registry for enforcing it's rules. I don't care if it worked in another breed. There are plenty of horrible things that have "worked", that has NO bearing on if they should have. The idea that you join a registry, with a set of specific rules or bylaws, then sue the registry for enforcing them, disgusting. When you join you agree to abide by the rules and also are aware that they can change if the membership votes to change them. If you dont like a new rule you work to rally the people to change it. No respect or tolerance should ever be given to those who decide to control and force the hand of us Members. If you look at the whole think from the other side. I joined a registery that has rules that said it could and would REVOKE papers if a horse is suspected of not meeting the height requirements. It goes on to state that, if in question, it is the owners responsability to PROVE they meet the requirements. If they refuse, papers will be removed immediatly with out any further investigation. I based a career of these rules, my income relies on the integrity of this registry and the ability of it to enforce the rule book that the majority of its members follow. If any lawsuit was brought against a registry it should be for NOT following their rules, not the opposite. I would love to see us all reminding eachother of that instead.

 

[andi]

I guess I should probably answer the poll.

I am not sure where I stand. Yes, in all reality, if the horse qualifies for the classes they should be able to do both. I think the trouble many are having is while AMHR and ASPC are part of the same club many of the members see each other as a competing registry. Like many mentioned this is going to increase the entries in the ASPC classes, a boost they really do need. I think the frustrating part is, like it or not, the interest in ASPC horses has been revived because they are reaching a larger audience by being bred smaller and being bought by the AMHR members to show AMHR. I see this rule change as the next step in "tempting" those members to show Shetland also and go to Congress. In this limited economy, buyers are harder to find and I think some AMHR people are extra sensitive about "losing" their clients to another breed.

I guess in the end, let the Free Market do its job. Let the people be free to show their horses without the Registry having rules to limit and influence their choices. But I think the ASPC should really think about what it was that hurt the Shetland value years back, to help make sure it doesn’t happen again. If things go the way they look to be, ASPC is on the rise with new interest and will have a "second chance" to turn this momentum into a stable market.

 

[jeniemac]

WELL SAID..THE WORD BREED IS THE KEY POINT..BY BREEDING THE PONIES TO THE MINIATURES WE HAVE CREATED A NEW BREED.

SO LET THE SHOWS REFLECT WITH CLASSES FOR THAT BREED...SHETLAND CROSS OR FINE..

THAT WOULD ELIMINATE MOST OF THE COMPLAINTS FOR CROSS SHOWING AMHR...

ITS LIKE ALL THE COMPLAINTS FOR THE PLEASURE AND COUNTRY PLEASURE CLASSES...THEY CREATED A CLASS WESTERN COUNTRY PLEASURE. DO THE SAME FOR THE HALTER...SHETLAND CROSSES...MINIS...PONIES..

 

[Katiean]

In this economy if your horse is registered both, If the show offers both, Why shouldn't you show your horse in both? It is not like showing a horse in 34" and under then showing it in 35" and over. ASPC and AMHR are 2 different registries. It is like if you have pintos that are registered both AMHR and what ever the pinto horse registry is. If they had a combined show, I am sure you would want to show both registries.

 

[LaVern]

I love this Forum. I love Mary Lou. I love KayKay and I love Belinda and I love all that disagree with me or agree with me. I love anyone that will say how they feel about stuff. Thank you. Which ever way this goes, we got to have a say. I noticed that one of the other directors was on Face Book saying that he was headed out to the Convention and had read all the posts and it gave him much to think about.

 

[Yaddax3]

WELL SAID..THE WORD BREED IS ...

Your posts are all in capital letters, which, as you probably know, is the written form of yelling. Are you doing it to be emphatic, or is your caps lock button broken? I find it jarring and annoying and skip over posts in all caps. Perhaps I'm the only one, but I wanted to mention it because your opinions might not be getting read by everyone and they might be worth reading.

 

[Belinda]

I think the board should table this and send it to convention , there are many good ideas on both sides presented here !! And Renee we love you too

 

[dannigirl]

Belinda--I think you may be right. So many things to consider and the last thing that needs to be done is make a decision and then have to change it in 6 mos or a year when everyone understands and knows what is happening and wants it different.

 

[kaykay]

Thanks Lavern. You know I adore you and I still want that cup of coffee. We truly would have a blast chatting with a cup of java.

Belinda I totally agree. Table it, research it some more, maybe send an email blast poll out to members and then put it out there at convention. Great idea!

Kay

 

[ruffian]

deleted

 

[disneyhorse]

Ruffian...

The placings may differ according to competition... Some horses may be ASPC only, some may be AMHR only, or the owner may not have money or desire to show in both.

It would be like insinuating that the A size horses always are placed the same at an AMHR show versus an AMHA show. Are both Nationals and World placed the same????

As for finances, passing this would encourage more ASPC entries and this help the ponies foot the bill. It would make it more financially "fair" in your eyes.

Andrea

 

[Katiean]

I think I should clarify my opinion. I do not feel a horse that is ASPC should enter in an AMHR class unless it is also registered AMHR or visa versa. But if the horse is duel registered, it should be allowed to compete in all classes it qualifies for if the owner wants to show that way. That will allow a person to show in more classes at the same show. I think I would start looking at the bigger minis if I had a better opportunities in showing and value.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think the board should table this and send it to convention , there are many good ideas on both sides presented here !! And Renee we love you too

Belinda I think this is the best idea.

 

[jeniemac]

Your posts are all in capital letters, which, as you probably know, is the written form of yelling. Are you doing it to be emphatic, or is your caps lock button broken? I find it jarring and annoying and skip over posts in all caps. Perhaps I'm the only one, but I wanted to mention it because your opinions might not be getting read by everyone and they might be worth reading.

Sorry I am not yelling ..I am old and blind so I type in caps so it is easier for me to read..lol

Didn't mean to get anyone upset cause they thought I was yealling...

 

[disneyhorse]

I think I should clarify my opinion. I do not feel a horse that is ASPC should enter in an AMHR class unless it is also registered AMHR or visa versa. But if the horse is duel registered, it should be allowed to compete in all classes it qualifies for if the owner wants to show that way. That will allow a person to show in more classes at the same show. I think I would start looking at the bigger minis if I had a better opportunities in showing and value.

Yes, that is the issue being proposed. Only ASPC horses with AMHR papers can show as a mini. This would only apply to dual registered horses.

 

[Minimor]

jeniemac—they are not necessarily “crosses”—there are those….the Arenosas as one example…that have been dual registered “forever”. They were ASPC registered from way back, long before AMHR was created. When AMHR was created, those owners didn’t throw away their ASPC papers….they kept them, and paid to have their ponies registered AMHR. So, from day 1 of AMHR there have been those horses that had ASPC/AMHR papers. Are you really going to tell them that now they cannot be counted as Miniatures, just because they kept their Shetland papers right through? They have as much right to show AMHR as anyone, and yet they also have the right to show ASPC…because they have those papers too. Just because they have ASPC papers doesn’t mean they aren’t Miniatures.



James—like it or not, there have been a number of breed registries that have been hit with a lawsuit which challenged some current rules at the time….and those people have won. Like it or not, past court rulings set precedents for rulings in future court cases. AQHA and AMHA (M=Morgan) both lost lawsuits and had to change their rules to comply with the court ruling. It would be foolish to think that a similar challenge of ASPC/AMHR rules couldn’t have the same result. Like it or not, a breed registry pretty much has to recognize the fact that Registered Parent x Registered Parent = Registered offspring. AMHR isn’t fully closed, but it is closed to “outside” horses and I personally wouldn’t count on a court ruling in favour of the registry if someone chose to file a lawsuit because the registry had pulled papers on their horse.

ruffian--why would it make people pack up & go home if the double registered horses are allowed to show in both divisions? Chances are the majority of those Shetlands are already showing in AMHR, so the AMHR competition isn't going to change. So, what difference does it make to an AMHR exhibitor if some of the competition turns around & goes back into the ring in some Shetland classes?

To clarify registration numbers--in the past however many years (would have to go look it up again--it isn't that many years) the AMHR registrations have dropped by 25%, while the ASPC registration stay steady...who can say if that trend will continue, but since ASPC numbers haven't declined in the past 20 or so years it seems likely they will continue to hold steady. AMHR saw a huge surge in popularity in the recent past, but how likely is it that it would ever be able to maintain those numbers indefinitely? As Andrea said, passing this rule change would help the Shetland side of the registry. Why complain about the Shetlands not earning their keep, and then oppose something that would help correct that?

I don't disagree that old type Minis and Shetlands have different temperaments....but then again my 'old type' Minis have differing temperaments too--they are not all the same--some are hotter, some are more laid back. Some are very agreeable, some are more opinionated and less agreeable... Likewise my Shetlands vary in temperament--some are hotter, some are more laid back. I am not sure what that part of it has to do with anything in this topic? As a side note...my hottest pony is also my best mannered pony, he has beautiful show ring behavior...so he sure wouldn't scare anyone out of the ring!

 

[tifflunn]

Would appreciate cross entering - There are no shetland shows here yet - cross entering would help get the ball rolling.

 

[jeniemac]

jeniemac—they are not necessarily “crosses”—there are those….the Arenosas as one example…that have been dual registered “forever”. They were ASPC registered from way back, long before AMHR was created. When AMHR was created, those owners didn’t throw away their ASPC papers….they kept them, and paid to have their ponies registered AMHR. So, from day 1 of AMHR there have been those horses that had ASPC/AMHR papers. Are you really going to tell them that now they cannot be counted as Miniatures, just because they kept their Shetland papers right through? They have as much right to show AMHR as anyone, and yet they also have the right to show ASPC…because they have those papers too. Just because they have ASPC papers doesn’t mean they aren’t Miniatures.

So as I understand you... the American Shetland had the first registry and the ones that could no longer meet the requirements for the ASPC broke off and formed the AMHR reg. which origionaly consisted of shorter American Shetlands.

Thus we now have a height registry AMHR.

Then those that wanted to be reconized went out and formed the AMHA to declare the 34 and under a breed thus the AMHA registry was formed, from what I understand, to preserve the miniature as a breed.

Then the shorter American Shetlands started breeding to the other breeds to get more refinement and shorter size to comply with the height rule for AMHR...

Now we have 2 clubs with one (AMHR) umbrelled under the parent club (ASPS).

Through the years AMHR flurished while the pony club stayed the same or fluxuated slightly, but the numbers were and are not there for them to cut away from the the combined club.

Please correct me if I am off track here. This is how I understand it.

No , I am not saying not to allow showing the duel reg horse at a show.

But at that same show have classes at that reflect the TYPE of miniature wanting to be reconised in those shows that have pony classes in them. The shetland / miniature could show in a "fine" class then go on to show in their respective classes in the pony division.

This would take the crosses and put them in their own division type and all of us that don't have that refined mini would have a class of their own.

I still stand by my "NO" on the idea of showing a pony as AMHR then turn around and show the same pony as ASPC at the same show.

My thought is "You have a Pony or you have an AMHR ..make a choice. A choice has to be made in the driving classes at the same show. It is only fair that this be the same.

______________________________________________________________________________

James—like it or not, there have been a number of breed registries that have been hit with a lawsuit which challenged some current rules at the time….and those people have won. Like it or not, past court rulings set precedents for rulings in future court cases. AQHA and AMHA (M=Morgan) both lost lawsuits and had to change their rules to comply with the court ruling. It would be foolish to think that a similar challenge of ASPC/AMHR rules couldn’t have the same result. Like it or not, a breed registry pretty much has to recognize the fact that Registered Parent x Registered Parent = Registered offspring. AMHR isn’t fully closed, but it is closed to “outside” horses and I personally wouldn’t count on a court ruling in favour of the registry if someone chose to file a lawsuit because the registry had pulled papers on their horse.

ruffian--why would it make people pack up & go home if the double registered horses are allowed to show in both divisions? Chances are the majority of those Shetlands are already showing in AMHR, so the AMHR competition isn't going to change. So, what difference does it make to an AMHR exhibitor if some of the competition turns around & goes back into the ring in some Shetland classes?

To clarify registration numbers--in the past however many years (would have to go look it up again--it isn't that many years) the AMHR registrations have dropped by 25%, while the ASPC registration stay steady...who can say if that trend will continue, but since ASPC numbers haven't declined in the past 20 or so years it seems likely they will continue to hold steady. AMHR saw a huge surge in popularity in the recent past, but how likely is it that it would ever be able to maintain those numbers indefinitely? As Andrea said, passing this rule change would help the Shetland side of the registry. Why complain about the Shetlands not earning their keep, and then oppose something that would help correct that?

I don't disagree that old type Minis and Shetlands have different temperaments....but then again my 'old type' Minis have differing temperaments too--they are not all the same--some are hotter, some are more laid back. Some are very agreeable, some are more opinionated and less agreeable... Likewise my Shetlands vary in temperament--some are hotter, some are more laid back. I am not sure what that part of it has to do with anything in this topic? As a side note...my hottest pony is also my best mannered pony, he has beautiful show ring behavior...so he sure wouldn't scare anyone out of the ring!

 

[Minimor]

So as I understand you... the American Shetland had the first registry and the ones that could no longer meet the requirements for the ASPC broke off and formed the AMHR reg. which origionaly consisted of shorter American Shetlands. It was nothing to do with ponies being unable to meet the requirements for ASPC--it was simply a matter of size, those that were small enough were registered with AMHR. It is exactly the same now as it was then--any ASPC pony small enough can be AMHR registered.

Through the years AMHR flurished while the pony club stayed the same or fluxuated slightly, but the numbers were and are not there for them to cut away from the the combined club. Why would the ponies "cut away" from their own club?? The club is and always has been the American Shetland Pony Club. AMHR is a division of that.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I voted NO as I always do on this subject. I have a cherished dream that one day Minis won't be a height registry and will be a BREED registry. Which is really silly when you think of it as that has been the reasoning for AMHR/ASPC double registry is that AMHR is a height registry.

Oh really? So can I register an under 38" any horse I found whatever the genetic background? NO. Truthfully AMHR should have been called AMSR - American Miniature Shetland Registry as that's how it's been treated since it's inception.

I have nothing against Shetlands, it's what Mini's come from, but as a Mini breeder, many of us are working to establish Miniature Horse lines and a breed standard for Minis (DNA/PQ testing, tracking pedigrees, etc.), and I'm looking forward to the day when other BREEDS will not be allowed into either registry (AMHA & AMHR).

So, will allowing a Shetland to show as both at the same show help revenue? Possibly from the Shetland breeders, but many of the pure Mini breeders may forego the shows. Six of one, half a dozen of the other on how that can play out. I hope they won't allow it, but if it's financially beneficial to ASPC/AMHR they likely will.