Question for those that know

[js1arab]

OK, this may get a bit long, but I need serious help here. OK, first, about 4 years ago I bought a mareat a sale (ok no flames) and she looked to be and is registered as a solid bay with only a small bit of white on the coronet band. Well, when I got her home and clipped her, I noticed she had a few stray white hairs in her mane and one pink spot under her tail. Then I took closer note that she had striped hooves and her lips were slightly mottled. No mottling around the eyes though. I wondered at first if she could have some pinto in her background and wondered about appy too, but I thought there would be mottling under the tail or around the eyes and nose with appy breeding. Well, her pedigree did show some pinto a couple generations back and I wonder if her parents or grandparents could have been like her and been so extremely minimal that they were just registered as solids. OK, here comes the problem. I have a really nice foal from her this years that scared the H.E. double toothpicks out of me as I watched her come out of the sack. Even though I suspected pinto in the mare, she had given me two solid foals prior to this one...and then here came this foal with four white stockings a strip and snip and a few body spots. I thought the aliens had landed. SOOOO obviously I was right about the mare being minimal pinto. BUT, I was body clipping the foal today (and I clipped her earlier and this wasn't there then) I lift her tail and she's as speckeld as a jay bird around her bottom!!!!!! How many generations can the appy gene be expressed as a minimal trait before showing up again. I'm guessing the motting and striped hooves on the dam were actually minimal appy as well. If this is the case....anyone want a really pretty filly LOL. She is pretty, but I'm just not knowledgeable about color genetics and don't really care to produce a lot of color. I would dabble with pinto maybe, but if the appy gene is in there as well, I'm not a fan of the appy pattern (no offense to anyone as I'm glad everyone likes differnt things). Although I do have to say that some of the prettiest appy's I've seen have been minis. So please tell me, does mottling show up other than appy or does that pretty well mean she carries some appy genes. Thanks for any help you guys can offer. Oh and it won't do much good to tell me to check with the previous owner. He wasn't at the sale and only left R papers at the sale and when I called to find out more about her he got all huffy and didn't feel like she should have sold as cheap as she did and was quite rude. Not really my fault that he didn't come to represent her though. Alright, I'll shut up and quit typing now so someone can actually answer my question

 

[kaykay]

can you show us pics of the mottling?? that would tell a lot as appy mottling is very distinctive.

 

[runamuk]

Appy doesn't really "hide" or "crop out" BUT if you don't know what your looking for it can be missed in it's minimal expression...that is problem number 1...problem number 2 is that often (especially with the appy roan pattern) it can take literally years for the color to come in....I have seen appy's where the roaning didn't start until they were 3 or 4 and it took until they were 9 or 10 for it to be distinctive as a truly roan appy........the mottling is the same .....I will use my mare (full sized appy aphc) her mom was a super dark liver chestnut (almost black) q-horse her sire was a near leopard ...she was born copper penny red with light hooves (brownish) and the only characteristic she showed was white sclera (human eyes) even that was very minimal....we bought her at about 1 year she was a dark liver chestnut she had a tiny coronet white marking and a couple white hairs where a star would be....at age two she was copper penny again and had 1 pink dot on her privates.....at 3 she was a darker red again but she now had a pink spot on he nose (tiny like a pimple) and her forehead was roaned...as she shed that summer she had odd white hairs and white dots on her body.........ok before this becomes a novel ...fast forward to now she is 12 and her nose is mottled her privates are mottled and she is varnish roaned with white dots all over.......OK even according to her registry until she was 4 or 5 she did not qualify for regular papers as she didn't show enough traits...they must have 3 easily visible in photo's........yep could be an app..........

 

[js1arab]

If I get a chance tomorrow, I will post pics of the mottling. For now keep any info coming

I know that most colors don't truly hide, but some are sure awful hard to find. With this filly's mother, anyone unfamiliar with color would completely miss that she may be carrying the pinto genes and even though I wondered about possible appy, even I dismissed it as just being some unusual characteristics(and believe me, I don't know much myself -that's why I like my solids

) I have friends who raise POA's and I tell ya, her butt looks a lot like their horses do, but nothing around the eyes or nose. I'll have to look closer tomorrow at the inside edge of the lip. If someone wants to post an appy bottom or an appy with minimal traits, I can tell you if she looks like that

Thanks again for any help.

Oh and the mother is 13 so hopefully she has all the coloring she's gonna get by now

and another oh- she does have the white scalera, but no mottling, I just assumed that was from the pinto as several people I know have pintos and they look just like my filly's eyes and one friend even had an arab like that so I didn't think much about it other than she is a prissy little fart and they say that can be true of ones with noticable white in the eye

 

[js1arab]

Hey Kay, too bad you're being a stick in the mud and not going to state fair

you could see her in person and tell me what you think

Maybe you'll just have to come visit me instead

 

[runamuk]

Oh and the mother is 13 so hopefully she has all the coloring she's gonna get by now

and another oh- she does have the white scalera, but no mottling, I just assumed that was from the pinto as several people I know have pintos and they look just like my filly's eyes and one friend even had an arab like that so I didn't think much about it other than she is a prissy little fart and they say that can be true of ones with noticable white in the eye 

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as for the mother don't count on it

OK regarding the "eyes" here is a topic that can get downright violent in appy circles

yes arabs have that on occasion not really desirable...the arabs also have sabino hidden quite well......there are some very cool looking pinto purebreds in the arabian history books

also sabino often "acquires" roaning with age.....alot like varnish in appy......continue the logic and knowing there were a number of sabino arabians in the pedigrees of appy's (see where this leads) any how if you want to learn more than you'd care to know I can get you links to some appy forums where they are discussing the actual genetic components discovered to date......there are some researchers who are studying the link between appy and pinto with actual genetic study...sadly there aren't many appy breeders who want to participate.....(head in the sand situation)

 

[js1arab]

Thanks runamuk, I may look into that, but more then likely, if we all decide she has appy traits, both she and her mother will be for sale LOL. Their both nice girls, but I guess I'm just not at a point right now to try to fully understand the genetics there and would prefer to focus more toward solid colors and being as I'm such a pro on color LOL -NOT. I also accidentally bought a pinto this last winter

OK, I know...how do you accidentally buy something. Well, I went to look at a sale and even though I'm not a huge chestnut fan (would you ever get the idea that I like solid bays and buckskins LOL) I saw a little spit fire of a chestnut filly with big eyes and 4 white legs. In the big horses it doesn't seem that uncommon to see white markings without pinto pedigree, but I guess that is less common in minis. Anyway, I started bidding on her and then someone mentioned her being pinto and it didn't quite sink in until after the bid closed and mine was the last hand standing

That's how you accidentally buy something. But I really did want her and decided I may have to learn a bit about pinto, but one gene at a time is enough

 

[js1arab]

OK, I'm going to try to load some pics here and see what you think

this is obviously a pic of her back end

This is a pic of her eye. No mottling, but you can see the sclera. At different angles it is even more noticeable.

The back end sure looks appy to me. It is weird though, her mom has some speckling/mottling inside her lips but nowhere else. Talk about confusing

 

[justjinx]

Sure looks appy to me! jennifer

 

[Dona]

Sure looks Appy to me too!

There are lots of "minimal" expressed appys out there, and your little mare is probably one of them.

Those white hairs you said she has, are probably from the varnish roan gene. Also, not all appys disply ALL appy characteristics. They can just show a few. They don't all have mottling everywhere. Just as they don't all have spots.....some are varnish....some are snowcap. The mottling can also show up in different areas at different times.

Don't put too much stock in registration papers either.

There are so many Miniatures who are registered as the wrong color....the papers sometimes don't help much. There are also a lot of foals who get registered to the WRONG stallion.

 

[Dona]

I saw a little spit fire of a chestnut filly with big eyes and 4 white legs. In the big horses it doesn't seem that uncommon to see white markings without pinto pedigree, but I guess that is less common in minis.

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That's because most big horse breeds don't recognize those white markings as "pinto". As long as they don't display the proper amount of body white...they are considered "solid" (they don't really care about the "genetics"....just what they look like).

 

[js1arab]

Thanks Dona, that would make sense on the big horses since it's only in the last few years that people have truly tried to understand genetics. What a bummer though, I bought the mare because she was a bay (and because she had beautiful eyes and pretty head and...LOL) I just really don't care for the appy markings so I wouldn't want to get a foal with really noticeable patterns. Again, not knocking appy breeders it just isn't my thing. A lot of people don't like "boring" solids and I don't mind them so it is a good thing as that means we get lots of cool colors to choose from. Thanks for all the help guys