Really low prices response

[Songcatcher]

In the spirit of sharing ideas, let me share mine. I'm sure there are some things that I will not agree with John on, but I don't find any in his above post.

Horses are animals, not humans. They do not have "rights". Humans have a responsibility (morally and legally) to provide proper care for the animals they own. As John mentioned, papers belong to the breeder or association. The association has the right to revoke papers if the animal goes over height. Why should the breeder not have the right to "revoke" papers if the animal does not exhibit the characteristics he wants?

Economically, the breeder has expended the money to buy the breeding stock, facilities, provide care, and promote his product. He has the right to try to generate a profit from that investment (that's called capitalism). Assuming that breeder produces a good product and has successfully marketed it, he makes a profit. Economics 101: Supply and Demand. The greater the quantity, the lower the price. If a breeder wishes to reduce the number of horses with his name on them (especially those that he deems not to be the best quality), he increases the quality of his product and reduces the supply, and therefore increases the price of those available. Therefore, even though the breeder may have already paid for those papers, withholding them may increase the value of others he offers for sale, and providing the papers on every animal may decrease the value of the ones he regards as the best.

We really do need to teach more economics in school.

 

[Texasspook]

Yes, John I also respect that this will always be a difference of opinion and each owner can do with their horses as they wish. I just hate to think that by selling without papers you are hurting any future potential the horse may have to be productive to someone, of course these are slim chances and I guess I speak from personal experience so that affects my view. We have friends who ended up with a gelding down the line and have a copy of his papers but the original were pulled by someone along the way, they drive him in the 4H parade team but would like to do AMHA or AMHR shows. These are people I could pull into our local club with new youth members to try it out and see how they like it before they commit to more expensive horses. I know every breeder wants their name associated with good horses when they step into the arena but sometime best conformation isn't always the most competent in an obstacle classes and that is the class we are striving to do well in. Again sorry to change your topic.

Traci

 

[JWC sr.]

I understand your point Mona and in most cases that is a reasonable use for some of the horses. Fortunately, in our case the folks that we send our gelding non-show quality horses to are folks that use them in petting zoos and to do birthday parties etc. in Mexico and they have no interest in the papers etc. Those grade geldings sell for between 400 - 1000.00 depending on color and size(the want the smallest they can get) which barely covers the cost of gelding, papers, health papers, coggins etc. etc. on most of them, but it furthers the effort to find every horse a use and a home.

As for the youth type horse that are not National caliber open etc. horses, we do sell them on a regular basis for use in the 4-H and FFA areas at very reduced prices in order to encourage the use of mini's in the various programs. In particular there is a local county that is very pro-active in getting kids to consider mini's in the programs they have. We make allowances for them and typically that type horse while still conformationally correct sell for 600.00 - 1500.00 and work well for those purposes.

I like you wish there was some way to sterilize mares and fillies. It is exasperating to deal with that issue.

Again our approach and I look forward to more discussion.

 

[Katiean]

I am going to give a referance with AKC. This was a lot of years ago so things have changed a bit with limited papers. I bred my female. The fee was pick of the litter. She had 1 puppy. It was a male and one front leg was shorter than the other. I had vet bills and the stud owner wanted the puppy and wanted me to sign the registration papers. I fought long and hard because I knew this woman and I knew she would represent the pup as a show pup. I called AKC. They asked me if both parents were registered. I said "yes". They told me if I wanted to continue registering dogs I had to sign the papers. My issue was not surrendering the puppy it was giving papers on that puppy. According to AKC the papers belong to the dog. I belive that as with dogs, the papers should also belong to the horse. Only the registry should beable to with hold the papers.

 

[Songcatcher]

I am going to give a referance with AKC. This was a lot of years ago so things have changed a bit with limited papers. I bred my female. The fee was pick of the litter. She had 1 puppy. It was a male and one front leg was shorter than the other. I had vet bills and the stud owner wanted the puppy and wanted me to sign the registration papers. I fought long and hard because I knew this woman and I knew she would represent the pup as a show pup. I called AKC. They asked me if both parents were registered. I said "yes". They told me if I wanted to continue registering dogs I had to sign the papers. My issue was not surrendering the puppy it was giving papers on that puppy. According to AKC the papers belong to the dog. I belive that as with dogs, the papers should also belong to the horse. Only the registry should beable to with hold the papers.

If I understand this correctly, at the time, you believed the owner of the dog should have the ability to withhold the papers and you were not allowed to. Now you believe the owner of the horse should not have the ability to withhold papers.

Correct me if I am misunderstanding.

 

[Katiean]

I am going to give a referance with AKC. This was a lot of years ago so things have changed a bit with limited papers. I bred my female. The fee was pick of the litter. She had 1 puppy. It was a male and one front leg was shorter than the other. I had vet bills and the stud owner wanted the puppy and wanted me to sign the registration papers. I fought long and hard because I knew this woman and I knew she would represent the pup as a show pup. I called AKC. They asked me if both parents were registered. I said "yes". They told me if I wanted to continue registering dogs I had to sign the papers. My issue was not surrendering the puppy it was giving papers on that puppy. According to AKC the papers belong to the dog. I belive that as with dogs, the papers should also belong to the horse. Only the registry should beable to with hold the papers.

If I understand this correctly, at the time, you believed the owner of the dog should have the ability to withhold the papers and you were not allowed to. Now you believe the owner of the horse should not have the ability to withhold papers.

Correct me if I am misunderstanding.

What I am saying is I did not want the puppy to be used in breeding and that was why I didn't want the papers to go with him. He was 6 weeks old and weighed less than 1lb. He could not be nutered or I would have done that and signed the papers. They now have limited registration and I also would have taken that ave. but it was not available then. You geld before they leave. There is no reason to not give the papers. They (your colts/geldings)can not in any way be used for breeding because they have been gelded. The papers are just a part of record of who that horse is.

 

[Mona]

Thank you Muffntuff for your message alerting me to the fact that to show in 4H the animals DON'T need to be registered. I am sorry, that was my mistake.

I sold 5 horses (3 fillies, 2 colts) to 4H students last Fall and I thought their 4H leader told me at that time that they needed to be registered to show. I do not have any personal knowledge or experience with 4H, so I was going by that. After my message from Muffntuff, I called the 4H leader and asked, and was told no, 4H does not require it, but they (4H leader) also bring their 4H kids to local shows where registration is required. That is where I was mixed up. Sorry for my false information in my previous post!!

 

[HGFarm]

I am not giving up and the economy will not stay like this forever.......... yikes, I HOPE not, lol.

My colt also sold this month, to an AWESOME home, so I really didnt mind the low price. They love him to pieces and are experienced and just all around NICE folks. I had another inquiry on the filly... but as I said, she's been for sale for two years.

I am seriously thinking of keeping her anyway, she is the nicest moving horse- like a big horse, and has such a long stride and is so graceful- very pretty mover. My friends here keep yelling at me about selling her and then this lady who bought the colt rides dressage and she said she would have ripped the filly right out of my hand if her other Mini was not a stallion. She doesnt really care to handle mares (Funny, that is my preference all my life) but said she would sure have second thoughts if she were me.

Things happen for a reason, so who knows... ?

Oh, my neighbors sold a horse this weekend too, so they are moving, just really slowly!

 

[horses4u2]

John, I understand what you're saying in parts of your discussion, but yet not in others. I am wondering how selling a colt already gelded, with papers, is harming your farm name? If people are breeding, they should not feel ashamed of anything they produce...it's all a part of the learning process, and, as a part of the process of raising animals, we also understand that even when breeding for top quality show animals, there are bound to be some "pets" that come from those breedings. Why would a pet quality horse not make a good 4H pal for a child? They need to be registered for 4H in order to show, so even if the horse is not top National quality, a youngster can still have fun showing that horse locally, and that may result in them wanting a better quality as they mature. They can show it locally in their fairs etc. in halter, driving, jumping, obstacle, whatever. It would have to be a pretty darned poor quality horse to not be able to do this.
I think what many people do (not directing this part at you specifically John), is take away the papers when selling for such low prices, not because of the quality, but because they are not getting the prices they want for them with the papers. I have seen this time and time again, with dogs and horses. 2 prices...one set with, one set without. I just don't understand why not?? The foal is already registered, so it's not costing you any more, the colt is already gelded, so he cannot be used for breeding, so I really don't see any reason for not providing the papers to the new owner. I would understand this more if it was a mare/filly being sold as a pet, since spaying is a complicated surgery for a mare, and many vets won't even consider it unless it is a life or death type situation. Even though it would not guarantee the horse would not be used for breeding, it might be a deterrent, when coupled with a good sales contract. When people mention selling these colts without papers...may I ask you then, how many fillies are ever sold without papers for the same reasons? The odds of the same "pet quality" offspring would appear in both sexes, but I think we as breeders feel it is the fillies that bring better money overall, because they can be bred from, and thus, the reason we are so flooded right now.

EDITED TO ADD: Thank you Muffntuff for your message alerting me to the fact that to show in 4H the animals DON'T need to be registered. I am sorry, that was my mistake.

I sold 5 horses (3 fillies, 2 colts) to 4H students last Fall and I thought their 4H leader told me at that time that they needed to be registered to show. I do not have any personal knowledge or experience with 4H, so I was going by that. After my message from Muffntuff, I called the 4H leader and asked, and was told no, 4H does not require it, but they (4H leader) also bring their 4H kids to local shows where registration is required. That is where I was mixed up. Sorry for my false information in my previous post!!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

So what you need is what we, both in horses and in the KC already have.

The ability to sell an animal with it's papers but without the right to breed???

We can have that stamped on the papers.

Now, I am not at all sure how this would stand up in a court of law......with dogs, especially pet dogs, there is the reasonable expectation that it will live out it's life with one family, so , so long as they are alerted to the clause, and agree to it, and accept that they are getting the puppy at "pet price" because it is a pet, all is well.

With a horse, even a Mini, it often changes hands two or three times in it's life, and, as we all know full well, a lot of people are not as honest as they might be and some are downright dishonest.

So "Mr Bloggs" who has bought "Candy Apple" from the guy down the road has asked if she has papers and is told "yes".

He intends to breed a foal, that is fine, he is assured.

I can just imagine his surprise then when he reads the papers and sees the ban on breeding, or possibly only finds out when he tries to register his foal!!

So far it has never been contested, but were it to be it would not be simple as the onus of responsibility would stretch back a long, long way.

I am at present looking for a Mini Schnauzer bitch, hopefully two, to breed from, and I am completely up front about it.

So far I have been harangued by two local breeders who made no attempt to find out if I had experience or a good environment, etc, but were adamant that they would not sell their "babies" to be bred form.

Exasperated I demanded "What, you mean like YOU do??"

There was a silence on the other end of the phone!!

I would rather my "babies" went to good homes that had the occasional litter than a h ell hole crawling with badly behaved kids that kept the poor thing "just" as a pet!!

So it seems to me there are dual standards going on here.

I will register all my stock (I will, honestly, honest I will, yes, even the ones I forgot to do last year, just give me time!!!

) and I will sell them as registered, I do not think I have ever sold anything without it's papers.

What we need, then is a side register on which we can register (under a different prefix if you do not want your "Sunday Best" one on a pet) stock that will then be eligible to show (after all it's not all "Halter Glitz and Glory" there are loads of driving/obstacle/ jumping etc classes, and not just local, either) but not to breed.

How about that???

 

[horsefeather]

WOW! Almost $18,000 for 3 horses

That is just a little less than what my hubby and I make in a year.

And that, Mr. Cherry, is why I hope we never have to show against you!

You do have VERY nice horses and you are to be complemented on your breeding program. I understand your not giving papers, I don't necessarily agree, but I understand and as long as they are your horses, guess you can do what you want

Pam

 

[mikeh]

The market for the good show horse will always be there, but if we are going to be in the business we have a responcibity to place the non show horses, if it requires breaking, gelding, selling with papers, ect. The people that purchase a non show horse could be the buyer of a show horse tomorrow. We would all like to have every colt we raise be a top quality show horse but that does not happen and there is no shame in having a colt that is not up to a farms standard for show quality, that is mother nature!!!