Saturday AMHA General Membership Meeting

[shelia]

How will this affect my situation? I bought a colt that was just AMHR because the mare was only AMHR. I paid to have their mare hardshipped, but for reasons beyond my control this took 2 years! I finally have the paperwork to do it. It cost $600.00 for the mare and will cost $600.00 to have the prgeny hardship for the colt. (along with other fees). He is now 3 years old! The rule used to be, if they are under 4 years old they can be hardshipped by progeny. Has this changed? Am I now going to have to pay $1,200.00! He is well under 34. Did I waste $600.00?

With this economy, money has become very tight this year, so even the $600.00 is going to hurt more than in previous years.

 

[Southern_Heart]

OK so you pay the price to have a horse or several horses go perm at 3. Then it or they go over 34" later say at 5, you have just tossed that money out the window as the papers will be pulled if it goes over. :arg! At least at 5 you can be somewhat sure they are done growing. Sounds like an AMHA money making deal to me. I am not for it.

Joyce

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

The reasoning given for changing the age was that many horses weren't being taken permanent at age 5.... I wonder if they ever considered the fact that the horses weren't taken permanent because they had gone over? NOt everyone takes the time to send the papers back, they just sell the horse as a pet without papers, or with R only papers. If I have one go over, I'm defenitely not going to take it permanent, so Ithink they will see the same result with 3 year olds, just a bit less because many are not done growing by 3, but they will keep their papers because they already have them. Often breeding stock only get measured for their papers, so a broodmare may get measured at 3 years old and be an honest 33.75" but continues to grow to 34.5" the owner may not realise she went over, cause they have no need to measure her anymore. I know I have many horses that their AMHR papers say one height, and their AMHA papers have a taller height. Most cases it isn't by much, but it is still a difference.

I think hardshipping should be left at 5, because we know not all horses are done growing by 3. I think we could let horses hardship in at 3 but, they should be given temporary papers, then be taken permanent at 5.

 

[Dona]

The reasoning given for changing the age was that many horses weren't being taken permanent at age 5.... I wonder if they ever considered the fact that the horses weren't taken permanent because they had gone over? NOt everyone takes the time to send the papers back, they just sell the horse as a pet without papers, or with R only papers. If I have one go over, I'm defenitely not going to take it permanent, so Ithink they will see the same result with 3 year olds, just a bit less because many are not done growing by 3, but they will keep their papers because they already have them. Often breeding stock only get measured for their papers, so a broodmare may get measured at 3 years old and be an honest 33.75" but continues to grow to 34.5" the owner may not realise she went over, cause they have no need to measure her anymore. I know I have many horses that their AMHR papers say one height, and their AMHA papers have a taller height. Most cases it isn't by much, but it is still a difference.I think hardshipping should be left at 5, because we know not all horses are done growing by 3. I think we could let horses hardship in at 3 but, they should be given temporary papers, then be taken permanent at 5.

I agree. Even tho most of my own breeding mature well before three...different bloodlines all mature at different rates. Of course, feeding programs can affect rate of maturity, as well as health issues, etc.

I bought a little mare once who measured a true 26" at a full 3 years old. When I took her permanent....she was 27.5".

So, she grew another 1 1/2" after age three....so it stands to reason, that some of the taller ones could easily grow another 2 inches after age 3.

 

[sdmini]

How will this affect my situation? I bought a colt that was just AMHR because the mare was only AMHR. I paid to have their mare hardshipped, but for reasons beyond my control this took 2 years! I finally have the paperwork to do it. It cost $600.00 for the mare and will cost $600.00 to have the prgeny hardship for the colt. (along with other fees). He is now 3 years old! The rule used to be, if they are under 4 years old they can be hardshipped by progeny. Has this changed? Am I now going to have to pay $1,200.00! He is well under 34. Did I waste $600.00?With this economy, money has become very tight this year, so even the $600.00 is going to hurt more than in previous years.

To my understanding it was age five and under that the prodigy rule applied to. However stallions are $1,200 so 1/2 of a stallion/colt cost is still going to be $600, if I read the above right.

 

[Mona]

I just wanted to try to explain what I mean. I KNOW there are cheaters out there, always have been, and there always will be. I also know that if they will cheat now, chances are, they have been doing it all along or would do so anyway, regardless of the new rule. What I am trying to say, is that even though cheating does go on, I honestly felt that more people were becoming honest, coming forward and not keeping the papers on horses that clearly outgrew them, thus somewhat keeping the (illegally) oversized horses registered with AMHA down in numbers, in comparison to that of maybe 10-15 years ago.

Now what I can see happening, is that there will be MANY people that will go ahead and permanent register and squeak them in at 3 years, and sit back laughing in a few years time, while they look at all the tall horses standing out in their pasture, and saying to themselves..."Gee, you sure do look 36", but I don't care...as long as I never lay a stick on you it doesn't matter...you stay registered in AMHA!"

And they do not have to measure them until they sell them, even if they LOOK 13hh!

 

[shelia]

How will this affect my situation? I bought a colt that was just AMHR because the mare was only AMHR. I paid to have their mare hardshipped, but for reasons beyond my control this took 2 years! I finally have the paperwork to do it. It cost $600.00 for the mare and will cost $600.00 to have the prgeny hardship for the colt. (along with other fees). He is now 3 years old! The rule used to be, if they are under 4 years old they can be hardshipped by progeny. Has this changed? Am I now going to have to pay $1,200.00! He is well under 34. Did I waste $600.00?With this economy, money has become very tight this year, so even the $600.00 is going to hurt more than in previous years.

To my understanding it was age five and under that the progeny rule applied to. However stallions are $1,200 so 1/2 of a stallion/colt cost is still going to be $600, if I read the above right.

yes, you are reading it right. I believe the rules said they can't be over 4 years old. I suppose they did that because the did not qualify for permenant registration. Once they are old enough for that they can no longer be hardshipped by progeny would the full fee would then have to be charged? Now that they can be permanantly registered at 3 will they still leave the progeny hardship the way it was before? Progeny hardship for a colt was $600.00. Regular hardship for a stallion is $1,200.00.

 

[Minimor]

even though cheating does go on, I honestly felt that more people were becoming honest, coming forward and not keeping the papers on horses that clearly outgrew them, thus somewhat keeping the (illegally) oversized horses registered with AMHA down in numbers, in comparison to that of maybe 10-15 years ago.

I would have to say that from my experience, the opposite is true. I can't say about 10-15 years ago, because I only got into Minis late in 2001, but at that time plenty of people told me about how they hadn't brought this horse or that horse permanent because he/she had matured too tall....or they had turned in papers because a horse went oversize--it was the right thing to do, according to them. Now, just 7 1/2 years later many of those same people advise that if ever I have a horse that goes oversize, do not turn in the papers--keep the horse at home and use it for breeding... someone said just the other day something to the effect of: 'if the big boys can do it, we little people may as well do it too'. Given the number of people that have said something of this sort to me, I really have to think that there are many other people out there that feel the same way, and so there are fewer and fewer people that are turning in papers on oversize horses. Plenty more, I'm sure, fudge the measurement on their permanent papers even at age 5, so I don't think changing the permanent age to 3 will make any great difference. There are oversize horses that manage to get measured in for hardshipping, so again I just don't see it making any great difference that horses can now be hardshipped at 3.

I also think that a major reason horses don't get brought permanent is they are sold and the new owner doesn't bother paying for memberships; if they don't buy a membership and/or transfer the horse into their name it's almost certain that they will never make that horse permanent. Perhaps by allowing horses to become permanent at age 3 there will be more breeders that still own the horse and will make their younger horses permanent....though outside of this bringing in extra revenue for AMHA I'm not sure it really makes any difference. If you raise a foal and keep it until it's 4--sell it and the new owner never brings it permanent....how is that worse than if you make the horse permanent at age 3 then sell it at age 4....buyer still doesn't transfer the horse nor register any of the foals they may raise from that horse...what is the difference. Only 2 things I can see--AMHA got the extra revenue for that horse at age 3, and breeder has the satisfaction of having his horse show up on the studbooks as "permanent"...as opposed to revoked, which might make a few people automatically assume the horse went oversize and lost its papers.

 

[Songcatcher]

I am thrilled that I will be able to buy a "lifetime" membership, even if it is only for 25 years. I think that will cover the time I have left and then some.

 

[minimomNC]

I have been a life member for several years, best move we made back then. But just remember that you have to renew your subscription to MHW every year, at first I would forget but now renew when I do amateur cards and my daughters membership. But it does help not paying that $65 a year now.

 

[horsehug]

If you are a lifetime member, how much does the MHW cost each year?

Thanks,

Susan O.

 

[Mona]

If you are a lifetime member, how much does the MHW cost each year?

Susan, according to the AMHA Work Orders (which I just received within the past few weeks) it states that subscriptions to the MHW in the US are $36/Bulk or $55/1st Class.

 

[horsehug]

Thanks Mona!

Susan O.

 

[Songcatcher]

If you are a lifetime member, how much does the MHW cost each year?

Susan, according to the AMHA Work Orders (which I just received within the past few weeks) it states that subscriptions to the MHW in the US are $36/Bulk or $55/1st Class.

BUT, the MHW is now available ONLINE! Of course, it is nice to have a hard copy, but being online is a great assett.

 

[Katiean]

I do have a question about bringing to perminant at age 3. My mare is 4 this year so I know I will have to bring her current. But, can I show her with her temp papers and in say June or July bring her perm?

 

[dali1111]

I am glad they lowered the hardship age to three but I do wonder about the temp to permanent. I think lowering the harship age is wonderful because I personally know of two yet to be born foals due this year that will be worth hardshipping. The sire is papered but is not up to date and both mares had papers at one point but were lost when their original owner died and his son who knew nothing about horses took them. The lady bred these mares thinking she would be able to harship the foals. Neither of these horses will likely ever be shown and if they are colts they will be gelded and if a filly she will never be bred, they also have an amazing lifelong home and will most likely never be sold...does it really matter if they are ever registered? no, but of course it is great if they are.

 

[Sandee]

I do have a question about bringing to perminant at age 3. My mare is 4 this year so I know I will have to bring her current. But, can I show her with her temp papers and in say June or July bring her perm?

I don't have the exact answer but on the temp papers they give you 6 months from the actual birthdate (turning 5 originally). So I would think they will have to give you several months and maybe even until she is 5yr + 6months. I'm in the same circumstance (4 yr old this year) except there are no AMHA shows in this area for me to "worry" about.

 

[Humhill]

Seeing as I'm 27 years old, I'm a little scared of a "Lifetime Membership" that only last 25 years. I don't wanna jinx myself....

Anyway, here's the math:

Pay the membership fee every year:

$65 x 25 = $1625

Pay the Lifetime Membership and buy World subscription:

$36 x 25 = $900

$480 + $900 = $1380

You save $245

Although, that's all assuming that the prices never change, you don't lose interest in Miniature Horses within 25 years, and the AMHA is still around.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Although, that's all assuming that the prices never change, you don't lose interest in Miniature Horses within 25 years, and the AMHA is still around.

That's also assuming that the price of the MHW and the price of an AMHA membership doesn't go up in 25 years.

 

[Margo_C-T]

R3 put the reasons why this latest (and IMO, yet another rule-ignoring)move is not a good idea for the stability and future of the AMHA, so no need for me to repeat them--I'll just say I agree with her position, 1000%!

I was an AMHA member when the original 'go Permanent at three' rule was CHANGED to 'go Perm. at FIVE'. This was based, at least by recommendation, on actually long-term, observational records by one of the breed's most knowledgable and experienced founders and horsemen, Vern Brewer-which showed that a significant number of horses DID grow a measurable amount after age 3. Who can cite ANY kind of such 'research' that THIS decision is based upon? ANYONE??? NO, I believe that this is ALL about a desperate desire to generate quick income--which IMO is a MIGHTY POOR 'excuse' for a major change without a logical basis in fact! You know, it's really NOT about what is a benefit for 'you', but about what is best for the future of the breed.....I grumbled when it was changed before, but came to realize that it was a better move toward keeping to the concepts of the 'breed' --as in, the world's most correct horse in miniature, with the ORIGINAL choice of 34" and under--and may I also add that that height, and that height ALONE, was FIRST chosen by the AMHR; the B division was added a number of years later.

There have been plentiful 'stories' of the 'tall mares in the back pasture' for all of the nearly 25 years I've been a member of AMHA--and I imagine there always will be. Some owners just never pay attention,some measure incorrectly,some know but pretend they don't--the variety of rationalizations are endless. A 'breeding stock only' division, along with truly ACCURATE and STRICTLY-FOLLOWED measurement at the only places it is required--shows and when applying for Hardship--would help, I believe--not 'stop', but help(but of course, that's for another thread). The truly honest will follow rules; those who aren't, won't.

I think it needs to be remembered how many who purchase miniature horses do not, and likely will not, breed show. I suspect the 'reason' given about how many don't take horses Permanent at five is a empty argument....given to add credence when the real reason is vastly different.

I do applaud the MHW online move! It really astounds me that one organization can be so smart in some ways, and so 'off-base' in others....

JMHO, of COURSE.

Margo(Lifetime AMHA Member for...oh, about 15-17 years now)