Showing ASPC and AMHR

[Sunny]

I know you're not allowed to cross enter Mini and Shetland at the same show but, with all the double registered horses out there these days, it makes me wonder why not. I wonder if more people would show more if they could. I wonder how much more money a show could make if you were allowed to cross enter. Wouldn't it be more cost effective for the owners, especially for those going for a HOF? Any thoughts or comments?

 

[midnight star stables]

Do you mean show in Miniature Over Sr. Halter in the morning and Under Classic Shetland Country Pleasure Driving in the afternoon?

Neat idea.. I never really knew the reason for no cross entering.

 

[Sunny]

Do you mean show in Miniature Over Sr. Halter in the morning and Under Classic Shetland Country Pleasure Driving in the afternoon?
Neat idea.. I never really knew the reason for no cross entering.

Yes, Desiree, something like that. I just meant whatever classes your horse/pony is eligible for in both divisions. And I don't know what the reason for no cross entering is, either.

 

[Karen S]

Hi Judy,

Back in 1999 the rule was voted in that those double registered horses COULD NOT cross enter at the same show. Up until that time they could. Here in Area V we had several farms who were breeding and showing both ways, they were critized from mainly the miniature people that is wasn't fair. Even though that horse had two sets of papers, one as a miniature and one as a Shetland the reasons behind the rule change was that the Standard of Perfection wasn't the same for both. I don't look for this rule to be over turned as there is still many many miniature folks who are against the Shetlands showing as a miniature even though our rulebook allows those horses to be hardship in as miniature if they meet all of the qualifications.

Yes, there could be some increase revenue for the shows if it was allowed, and those folks who do own those double registered wouldn't have to pick and chose which side of the fence their horses are going to show on that day. Guess if we were able to do so, then we could do away with both the AMHR Nationals and the ASPC Congress ( we all know that won't happen) and hold one big show that ran for two full weeks and have a ASPC/AMHR National Show for all divisions and then if those double registered horses won National Grand Champion as a Miniature then they could also cross over and win a National Grand Champion in their respective Shetland division. I can hear it now....that's not fair!

Karen

 

[minih]

What I don't understand is how is it stopping anything? You can show at one show as a mini, then the next show as a shetland, and go to both Nationals and Congress ? The only thing different is now it is like a punishment for owning a double registered horse and having to choose how to show said horse.

I don't look for this rule to be over turned as there is still many many miniature folks who are against the Shetlands showing as a miniature even though our rulebook allows those horses to be hardship in as miniature if they meet all of the qualifications.

Not changing this rule will not stop those with double registered horses from showing them as mini's. It just makes a certain mind set happy?

 

[Karen S]

Terri,

Back before the rule was put into place...you COULD show that horse at the SAME show (our past president who is now deceased was one of the first ones and I can name you another as well).

What most people can't get past is that the AMHR is a Height Registry....if a horse meets the requirements of the height....38" & under it could be hardship in as a miniature....that was how it was for many many years until the BOD chose to close it to Registered horses ...ie... Shetlands that met the height requirement of 38" & Under. Yes, the miniature HAS to QUALIFY under 4 Judges at two different shows before it can show at the AMHR Nationals, where our Shetlands don't have to qualify.

When I showed at Nationals for several years those double registered horses where showing as far back as 1998...people just didn't know that they were double registerd until they realized what they had when they bought those animals with both sets of papers.

Karen

 

[minih]

Thank you Karen, I guess I still just do not understand why not? I agree with what Sunny said above.

with all the double registered horses out there these days, it makes me wonder why not. I wonder if more people would show more if they could. I wonder how much more money a show could make if you were allowed to cross enter. Wouldn't it be more cost effective for the owners, especially for those going for a HOF? Any thoughts or comments?

 

[midnight star stables]

I want to change my earlier question.

Can a horse with the OLD rule, show in a miniature halter class, and then ten minutes later, at the same show, show in a shetland halter class?

Although it IS the same horse, I find it a bit unfair that you could enter Soo Many more classes at one show.

IMO, some miniatures looked better with the influence from certain Shetland blood lines. Many Shetlands, have better conformation as they have had more years at it, introduced new breeds into the bloodlines and were not stuck on really size shrinking. Yeah to Good Quality AMHR/ASPC horses

 

[Karen S]

Yes, until the rule was replaced with what you have right now in the rulebook. A Miniature that held dual papers, AMHR & ASPC could show at the same show if that show had both the AMHR classes and the ASPC classes. That dual registrered horse could show in a miniature halter class in the morning and come back that afternoon and show in the Classic Shetland classes. For those that don't know, it has only been within the past five years that we broke down the Classic division to Classics or Foundations. Same thing with our Modern's and Modern Pleasure ponies.

Karen

 

[ruffian]

It all comes down to standard of perfection. The SOP of miniatures is VERY different than that of a pony. And this is exactly why the original creators of AMHA ditched the ASPC papers. They didn't want them to be Shetlands! They were developing a new breed and not just a smaller division of an existing one

Why am I against it? Because why have a miniature "Breed" at all if all the judging is going to be under the Shetland standards?

And why is Shetland a breed when Miniatures aren't? If "Most" miniatures come from Shetlands, then why can't Miniatures be registered Shetlands?

I got into minis because I like their temperament, conformation, and that fact that kids and amateurs can easily handle most minis. Sorry, but I've seen way too many Shetlands that I wouldn't want to be on the lead with, much less have my kids around.

So If I am staying true to the miniature standard with my NON ASPC horses, then why should I show against ponies if they are going to be judged by Shetland judges since the same judge would most likely judge them as minis in the morning and ponies in the afternoon??

What I find really interesting is that at the AMHR/ASPC shows, at least around here, there may be 15 or 20 ponies and 75-100 miniatures.

Some people wonder why folks are so against the AMHR/ASPC horses. IMO - for me it's because the crosses being made are NOT the same type that produced the friendly, pretty, fine boned, natural action, MINIATURE HORSE that I fell in love with 25 years ago!!

 

[Boinky]

And why is Shetland a breed when Miniatures aren't? If "Most" miniatures come from Shetlands, then why can't Miniatures be registered Shetlands?

Simple... because somewhere along the line the breeders of your line either lost or threw away their shetland papers ( have both mini's that are not registered shetlands and some registered as both so i'm not biased either way..a good horse is a good horse is a good horse). It's like every other breed you may have a purebred but you can't just say "hey it's purebred give me papers". unfortunate as it maybe. I do believe most mini's came from shetlands but i'm sure there are some other pony lines out there as well that have crossed into them... hence they may/may not be PURE shetlands. If they had shetland papers down through the lines then they have been documented to be pure.

It all comes down to standard of perfection. The SOP of miniatures is VERY different than that of a pony. And this is exactly why the original creators of AMHA ditched the ASPC papers.

I guess i need to go back and read the SOP for mini's and shetlands but from recollection I really don't recall them being completely different. Infact i'd consider the mini SOP rather vague and could describe ANY horse or pony with good build that was under 38".

 

[Boinky]

Ok not being snide or anything but out of curiosity i did go to the rulebook for each registry.

for compairison sake here is what i did.. the Miniature horse SOP was a whole lot shorter and less in-depth than a shetlands but i did a compairison between the details the the miniature horse SOP had (taken from AMHA) and compaired them to ASPC classics JUST going by what the miniatures had which in my opinion is quite vague and someplace in it even said something like "must be consistent with the type of breed the minis is representing" so basically a mini can look like ANYTHING. Overall to ME they look pretty darned similar. anyone that wants more in-depth on shetlands will need to go read the SOP though themselves..way too much to add but the overall type seems to be pretty consistent with the very vague "mini" type.

I also have to say i had to piece together a few of them because they covered the same thing pretty much but were termed differently or they were covering a certain part of the body but also covered it as a whole.

HEAD................ small, short and clean cut, well set on the

neck and tapering from wide set eyes to the

muzzle.

HEAD: In proportion to length of neck and body. Broad forehead

with large prominent eyes, set wide apart. Comparatively short

distance between eyes and muzzle. Profile straight or slightly

concave below the eyes. Large nostrils. Clean, refined muzzle.

Even bite.

EARS................. small, alert and expressive, set well up on

head and delicately curving to tip.

EARS: Medium in size. Pointed. Carried alertly, with tips curving

slightly inward.

THROAT............fine and pronounced. The insertion of the

neck into the head should be horizontal to

give a fine rounded throat latch and an arched

neck with the head carried high.

THROAT-LATCH: Clean and well defined, allowing ample flexation

at the poll.

NECK.................must be proportionate to the body with

extreme length of neck to be avoided. The

neck should be well carried and moderately

lean in the case of mares, without crestiness;

but inclined to be slightly crested in the case

of mature stallions. A broken crest shall be

faulted.

WITHERS..........clearly defined and narrow, but not

pronounced. Should give pleasing blend to

back and neck.

NECK: Flexible, lengthy, in proportion to body and type and

blending smoothly into the withers.

POINT OF SHOULDER........pronounced, setting well forward

at approximately 45° angle from the withers.

SHOULDERS: Long, sloping and well-angulated, allowing a free

swinging stride and alert head/neck carriage. Well muscled forearm.

BODY: Well muscled, with ample bone and substance.

Balanced and well proportioned. Short back and loins in relation

to length of underline. Smooth and generally level topline. Deep

girth and flank. Trim barrel.

COUPLING....... the back and the loin areas are short; the hip

or croup is long and level; then the pony is

said to be short-coupled, which is desirable.

These last three points -rib spring, girth and

coupling should be closely watched, for to

lose them would be to lose the hardiness for

which the Shetland is justly famous. At a

glance from side, the belly line is longer than

the backline. This indicates several things:

the heart girth is deep, the ribs well sprung,

the coupling short and the foreleg set well

forward which it must be to have the angle of

shoulder necessary for good “shoulder

action.”

HINDQUARTERS: Long, well-muscled hip, thigh and gaskin.

Highest point of croup to be same height as withers. Tail set neither

excessively high or low, but smoothly rounding at the rump.

HOCK JOINT....When a pony stands with the hind legs

squarely under him, a plumb bob should fall

from the point of the buttock straight down

the back of the hind leg from the hock to the

ankle. From a posterior view, the point of the

hock should be the same distance apart as the

fetlocks. The joint itself should be large, but

neat and clean, with the bones defined, else

the hock will look “meaty”. A pony that is

cow hocked or sickle hocked shall be faulted

LEGS: Set straight and parallel when viewed from front or back.

Straight, true and squarely set, when viewed from side with

hooves pointing directly ahead. Pasterns sloping about 45

degrees and blending smoothly, with no change of angle, from

the hooves to the ground. Hooves to be round and compact,

trimmed as short as practical for an unshod horse. Smooth, fluid

gait in motion.

 

[kaykay]

They were developing a new breed and not just a smaller division of an existing one

No actually the original pony breeders were marketing genuises and figured out that if they called their small ponies (which HAVE ALWAYS been around) "miniature horses" and added mystique to it that people would buy their "miniature horses" It was something new to most people and we all know then the emphasis unfortunately became strictly on size as they got more popular.

And why is Shetland a breed when Miniatures aren't?

I dont understand why people cannot understand that AMHR and AMHA are height registries. ASPC is a breed registry! If you go back Shetlands were NEVER supposed to have to hardship AMHR. That was slipped in one year.

It still seems so funny to me that people think the aspc/amhr are a "new" thing when they are not at all new. They have been around forever.

The great thing is there is a horse for everyone. If you dont like ASPC/AMHR horses then dont buy or breed one. Its pretty simple really. But I will never understand the animosity tword people who do breed, show and own them. To each their own!

And I have seen plenty of nasty miniatures that I would never let a child handle. And I have ponies that I have let numerous children handle with no problems

Heck I love them all--mini or pony or mini/pony

 

[Leeana]

The great thing is there is a horse for everyone. If you dont like ASPC/AMHR horses then dont buy or breed one. Its pretty simple really. But I will never understand the animosity tword people who do breed, show and own them. To each their own!

It is really simple as that - just because YOU (not directing this at you, kay..i just quoted you bc you worded it how i would) do not like them or want to fool with them then DONT breed them...but you cannot tell others that they cant like them and show them how they please where they please in what division they please. You have a choice to show your horse AMHA or AMHR ...we get that choice to show ours AMHR or ASPC. My shetlands are larger ASPC horses so this does not fully apply to me (and a good portion of my horses are AMHR single reg) ... what can i say, i love my shetlands no matter what the height.

Some people wonder why folks are so against the AMHR/ASPC horses. IMO - for me it's because the crosses being made are NOT the same type that produced the friendly, pretty, fine boned, natural action, MINIATURE HORSE that I fell in love with 25 years ago!!

My shetlands look like horses too (what else are they going to look like?) - so i guess i am confused why a miniature horse looking like a shetland pony (horse) is different then a miniature horse looking like a QH, TB, Arab, Standardbred, Shetland....yep...believe they are all horses and would be happy to have a miniature HORSE of any of those types in good conformation

I think this would help the shetland classes more then anything in numbers (well....atleast the under / foundation divisions) but i just think i like how things are done now (Not cross entering and showing the same horse in AMHR and ASPC classes @ the same show).

 

[ruffian]

"Can a horse with the OLD rule, show in a miniature halter class, and then ten minutes later, at the same show, show in a shetland halter class?

Although it IS the same horse, I find it a bit unfair that you could enter Soo Many more classes at one show. "

There are many instances where this would increase revenues for the show - specifically in driving. A horse going in Park or Formal can't go in any other class. Why not? Because it's supposed to be a more extreme class. Same with Pleasure, CP, roadster, or Western. Each class has different style gaits, but they are all walk, trot, and extended trot of some form. So why not put everybody in one driving class and just call it driving??

A modern shetland should be more extreme than a miniature IMO. So why allow it to show against miniatures?

Yes I know it's a HEIGHT BREED to some people, but It's NOT to me!! I see a huge difference between miniatures and shetlands. And I am not telling anybody what to breed, just saying what I like.

OK Off my soap box now. Sorry!!

 

[Boinky]

Well considering i've only seen 2 moderns shown as mini's, and they were placed in park classes at nationals(which is where they should be) i don't see the problem with it. MOST shetlands that show as mini's are classic or foundations and look very much like "real" mini's. The thing that they do have going for them, and why they are winning isn't because they look like PONIES it's because many have good conformation and movement.... which many mini's lack from breeding for size alone. I do think though that a lot of people think that shetlands are spazzy and hard to manage but most i've dealt with are as mellow and laid back and sane as any "pure" miniature i've met. (it's a pretty big steriotype.) anyone can handle them and drive them (which i've met tons and tons of mini's that were down right nasty to manage.. weren't pretty nor did they move well) . most people would never know the difference if they didn't know. I guess i'm not getting the problem with ASPC/AMHR horses getting to show in more classes. It would be the same if you were to do a combined show AMHA and one AMHR. Not all of my horses are AMHA registered.. so that's not fair because you would get to do more classes/more shows. ...... If i wanted to do more classes i'd just make sure my horses were registered with the registry i wished to show more with..... It's also like saying the "buckeroo" lines have an unfair advantage so should not be allowed to show. They are a certain "type" and they win a lot..so anyone without a buckeroo horse it's not fair (now granted buckeroo was shetland.. as well as rowdy, GMB, etc...most of the greats were at least half).

if i didn't like the "type" of horse that was being shown I wouldn't care if i participated or not in the extra classes probably. I guess i truly am not getting the point of it.

the horse is basically two "separate" registries and even if the shows are on the same day..it would be like having two separate shows...

 

[dannigirl]

This conversation has gotten a bit off the original topic. I have horses/ponies in all three--AMHR, AMHA and ASPC--registries. Many are in two of the registries. I have to laugh when people say they would rather have the look of the minis rather than the ponies because I have a mare that is AMHA/AMHR and most will ask if she has her 'shetland' papers because she is more pony looking than the AMHR/ASPC horses I usually have with me at shows. As for 'tempermant' I have both sweet and more difficult minis and the same with the ponies. If you come into my barn and play with each of the 37 horses/ponies in my barn, I would venture to guess, you would not be able to tell me which were AMHA/AMHR, AMHR only, or AMHR/ASPC. Some will be easy and loving and some will be more difficult. The most difficult animal I ever raised, was a little 30" mare that I never could get calmed down. She always remained nasty and would bite when your back was turned, kick and don't even try to tie her for any work or grooming. I worked with her for months and months and finally had to sell her to a lady that liked those atributes in her and put her out with other broodmares and didn't work with her much. She was AMHA/AMHR registered and I would not--could not let any child near her.

Yes, the Modern Shetland is usually a bit more extreme, but in the 'at home' environment, many of them also are less discernable.

As for the original topic--While it would be a way for shows to possibly get more revenue, I think it would also be a bit more confusing. Also, there would be more paperwork and I think it would have to be handled as a whole new horse/pony entry with double office fees ect because of that extra paperwork--also two different back numbers for show management and exhibitors to keep straight. With many shows, things get confusing enough with so many horses and ponies entered that cross entering would really make it hard to keep track of. I am thinking of the last minute entries into jumping or liberty. As a person that has dealt with the paperwork end of a show, I can really see the headaches of cross entering at a show.

 

[Minimor]

I guess I'm comparing the AMHR/ASPC shows to the open shows around here, and the rules regarding cross entering aren't so very different. If you take your registered Arabian to an open show here, and that open show offers a line class for registered Arabians, if you choose to enter that class then you cannot cross enter into the open line class for "saddle type" or "western type" or "english type" horse. You can enter that open line class, but then you cannot cross enter into the Arab class. Or if you take your Mini to any one of the open fairs, if you enter him in the Miniature division you cannot turn around and show him in the open pony class. If you want to show him as a pony then you cannot enter the mini class. Got a roadster horse that can also do pleasure driving? At an open show here you are most probably going to have to choose one or the other, because at most shows the rules state that no cross entry is allowed between those two classes. What's the most fair? Cross entry or no cross entry? Some will always think one, and others the opposite.

For those that would like to show their AMHR/ASPC horse both ways at the same show, keep in mind that if that were allowed it might mean you would need to change the way you present your AMHR horse...since Shetlands cannot be balded, that means you couldn't show your Mini balded either...people would soon be squawking about that, and wanting to change the Shetland rule to match the AMHR rule (or lack thereof)...one thing tends to lead to another.

I don't have a problem with the way the rule now stands. Maybe that is partly because I don't like to see someone take one horse into umpteen classes at a one day show. I've seen someone show one horse in 15-20 classes in one day. The horse shone the first few times he went into the ring, and by his last classes he was dull and tired, giving lacklustre performances...in some cases I believe the rule against cross entry is the most fair to the horse!

 

[kaykay]

for ME i would worry about showing a horse both mini and pony in one day because I think mentally that could be really confusing to the horse.

I think there are a lot of reasons pro and con. For me though we usually decide at the beginning of the year where to show our aspc/amhr horses to their best advantage

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

for ME i would worry about showing a horse both mini and pony in one day because I think mentally that could be really confusing to the horse.
I think there are a lot of reasons pro and con. For me though we usually decide at the beginning of the year where to show our aspc/amhr horses to their best advantage

I don't understand the logic there. There are many horses who compete in different disciplines and don't get confused. i.e. halter, driving, trail. If trained well they seem to know thier jobs.

I don't think an ASPC/AMHR horse should be able to cross over between the two types of classes at one show. Decide how your horse/pony will do best at a particular show and present him/her that way.