So, you've got a dwarf, now what do you do?

[shoeboxstables]

But if there was a test- how would the industry react? Would people start advertising it, like with the HYPP in QHs? How long do you think it would take to get it out? Do you think there would be a big reaction or not much of one?

What could we be doing now as an industry to help solve this problem? I mean, we cannot always count on a breeder saying that a mare/stallion produced a dwarf. Should we set up a section of AMHA or AMHR to track dwarfs and dwarf producers- and make that information available to the members? But of course- not many people would report that information.

So how do you think it would play out?

Personally, I think this is all fascinating!

I look forward to hearing everyone's opinions.

 

[hhpminis]

I have some questions if someone would try to answer them:

1. Can someone please explain to me about the environmental issues?

2. Do you think overall height has bearing on dwarfism at all? In other words, does it seem like there are more dwarfs born to say 30" and under breeding or 34" and under breeding VS your taller B size minis? I'm wondering just how many dwarfs are born to say 34-36" minis in comparrison. Anyone have any clue?

Marty

I will give my input on your questions.

A few years ago in this area, we had a very bad problem with Mustard Weed. It was not only affecting miniatures but all breeds of horses. We were having a lot of foals born with severe abnormalities. Weak legs that went every which way, undershot jaws, and even crooked spines. These foals looked very dwarfy and at first seeing them that would be your explanation. As time went by, with splinting the legs, frequent trims, the legs considerably straightened out and the bites would come back on. I had one of these foals, when I sold him, he was with the exception of one front foot that was a bit splay, he otherwise was a cute little gelding and he grew to be about 32 inches tall. I gelded him very early as I was still not convinced that this was 100% just an environmental issue.

Others have mentioned nitrate poisoning, which is a known cause of hypothyroidism and this can cause severe deformities that could also look dwarfy, including undershot jaws.

Whether or not these can be blamed 100%, I cant say, and in my case the mare did produce a full blown dwarf the following year. Was this first foal mustard weed influenced or was he a minimal dwarf? I dont know that either.

On your second question, I do feel that the taller ones are less likely to have a dwarf, but that in itself is no guarantee either. The mare that I had was 32 inches tall. Most of the ones I have known have had at least one parent that was 30 or under. I would be curious as to others experiences with size of parents.

shoebox...if we could find a gene that could be singled out and tested for, I would have the test done in a heartbeat. Would everyone? Probably not but if we DNA'd our horses, and we knew of horses that carried this gene we could search pedigrees of horses that we were considering in our breeding program.

Right now there are tests for several genes we can test for, such as LWO, it is still up to the owner to tell people that their horse is LWO, there is not anywhere it is public knowledge.

As far as keeping records, I think that instead of not registering dwarves, we should register them for informational purposes and label them as such. Just like a title of a totaled car that has been rebuilt has to be stamped REBUILD.

 

[Danielle_E.]

If there was a test it would be wonderful, just like SCID in arabians. At least there is a test now so you can make an informed decision about breeding. What I find interesting about "dwarfism" in minis is this genetic anomally had to come from somewhere. Because our horses (minis) are not a purebreed, where did it come from? Could it have come from a "purebreed" that was used to cross to minis many many years ago. The only other breed that I know of and that I believe have eradicated "dwarfism" was Friesans. Did it first appear because of "environment". So many questions and yet we still don't have many answers. I think it would be interesting to play a "what if" game and see exactly what our breed would look like today if we had removed from the very beginning the known dwarfs (carriers), whether their offspring carries the dwarf gene (hidden) or were born as dwarves. I think our gene pool would be EXTREMELY limited today and I think that in itself might have caused alot of other medical conditions in minis as well. There would have been alot more inbreeding with a limited genetic pool.

 

[Danielle_E.]

I found a WONDERFUL and easy explanation about dwarfism (in human) and where it comes from in the first place (environmental etc)

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=179

So if I am reading this article correctly, neither parent need be dwarves or carry the dwarve gene to produce a dwarf in the case of "environmental" stimuli that affect the development of the fetus in the womb or it could just be also an anomaly of nature. Sounds to me like it could be but more than likely rarely that this occurs but the possibility is still there. I think I am reading that right. How are you all reading it?

 

[Marty]

That environmental thing; sounds like Agent Orange or something like that and also reminds me of Erin Brockovich..........very scary stuff but if it can happen to humans of course it can happen to animals.

If there were a test, I think then to be able to register your horses, you should have to report your test results. How about that? That would keep the gene pool "clean" maybe and hopefully isolate some of the problems. It could be a start. But then again, there's no test.

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I agree with hhp I think if we were required to register dwarves and they were then labeled dwarf and the parents noted as dwarf carriers it would at least give the industry a place to start to track the gene. I dont think we would eradicate dwarves though because there are still those who probably have never come to this board who find nothing wrong with them and those who would simply say that the dwarf died at birth without ever saying it was a dwarf . not that their high priced mare or stallion produced one. Also until we can get the equine veterinarians on board so to speak there will still be those who recommend that a mare or stallion be used again because it is commonly believed (right or wrong) that it does take 2 copies of the gene to produce a dwarf. I also think it would be interesting to know if when the mares and stallions have gone on to produce (NORMAL) offspring have these offspring also produced adwarf somewhere down the line.

As for environmental, we have our own ideas about that. Though Helen is not a dwarf, we believe that her affliction could have been caused because our vet put her mom on a thyroid supplement for low thyroid counts early in the pregnancy to help sustain the pregnancy about the time Helens eyes would have been developing in utro and since her mom already had some metabolic issues we feel she was at this time metabolically imbalanced and that may have caused her unborn fetus (Helen) to not develop correctly but again we will never know.

Also the people on this board who are openly discussing this topic are only a drop in the bucket compared to all of those who are breeding minis across the country it would be a start but only a start.

 

[runamuk]

If there was a test it would be wonderful, just like SCID in arabians. At least there is a test now so you can make an informed decision about breeding. What I find interesting about "dwarfism" in minis is this genetic anomally had to come from somewhere. Because our horses (minis) are not a purebreed, where did it come from? Could it have come from a "purebreed" that was used to cross to minis many many years ago. The only other breed that I know of and that I believe have eradicated "dwarfism" was Friesans. Did it first appear because of "environment". So many questions and yet we still don't have many answers. I think it would be interesting to play a "what if" game and see exactly what our breed would look like today if we had removed from the very beginning the known dwarfs (carriers), whether their offspring carries the dwarf gene (hidden) or were born as dwarves. I think our gene pool would be EXTREMELY limited today and I think that in itself might have caused alot of other medical conditions in minis as well. There would have been alot more inbreeding with a limited genetic pool.

There are documented cases of dwarfism in shetlands, welsh, and arabians. Welsh also have a higher frequency of hydracephalus (often found in conjunction with dwarfism).

Another big environmental problem that used to cause alot of deformities in horses across the board was selenium deficiency.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Thanks Runamuck, I had not heard of dwarfism in those breeds you mentioned. I had read about the one in Friesans and how the breeders managed to eradicate it from their gene pool. I know that shetlands were used way back when developing the miniature horse were also welsh used? arabians??? It's too bad we don't have a true "history" that we can go back to do do the research.

 

[HGFarm]

As a stallion owner, yes I would want to know. If it happened once in a lifetime, I would probably not sweat it too much, but I agree with Lisa (Ruffntuff) totally and am appalled at what she observed and that it continued! It is people like this that perpetuate the gene and create very bad experiences for people.

I would want to know just to take another good hard look at my breeding program and see if there was something I missed, and to certainly hope to avoid creating another.

I know someone who, a few years ago, had a tiny stud who exhibited NO characteristics as far as I could see- and his first foal crop of 7 I believe produced 3 dwarves. He was gelded immediately- there was NO question in their eyes what needed to be done. This is the responsible thing to do.

Personally, I would make the effort to tell the breeders, and if they truly listen, fine, but if not- at least you did your part and tried. That is about all you can do.

 

[heart k ranch]

I was going to add this.

There are some people that I saw at a flea market that bred FOR dwarfs. Its called Canton first Mondays. In Canton Texas. It's a big flea market but there are breeders that breed ONLY for dwarfs.

I was looking around and I saw this guy that had 3 dwarfs minis! They weren't just minis with bad teeth, they were full blown dwarfs. Bag legs, nostrils looked way to close, most were around 20 inches and the guy was selling them. For 1000 dollars. Telling people that they would make good house pets. I asked a guy that was fixing to buy one, "what are you going to do with it". He said "breed it and give it to my daughter"..

I tried to tell them it was going to make it long and that these . It already had trouble breathing.

Sorry to get of topic

 

[littlearab]

OK I have to add to this .

I had a dwarf born here 2 years ago. He was out of a purchused mare.I had purchused two mares and a stallion in a package deal.

I was honest about him and did do alot of reading on it and just about drove my vet nuts with ?s about it.

In my case the stallion I purchused was listed on all paperwrok as the sire of the dwarf.

I had no problem with it like I said was really just looking for info in hopes of not having another dwarf foal again.

Now my vet came right out and told me there was "no way " my stallion sired that foal. He was a born 31 days early..if you go by all the paperwork... the colt was sired by another stallion other then mine. The paperwrok I got said the mare was bred in June the foal was born early April. The gal I got the mare from did not even own the stallion or mare at the time that mare was bred, being it was born in April.

Now I was told by the person who sold the stallion to a gal I got him from that she hauled the stallion AND mares to the person I purchused them from... the stallion was from one place and the mare from another.. So who sired that foal?? I do not know, I have never said I knew, there is no way I could know or the gal I got her from know what happen before we owned the mare. My vet said no way a dwarf like Hobbit could of lived one day if he were born 31 days early. he only lived 1 month and that was with alot of TLC. Well over and above normal care. And every foal out of my stallion have been perfect. to date...

It did not matter..who the sire of Hobbit was to me. I sold the mare told eveyone had a dwarf foal, it was stated right in every add and on my web-site.... The new owner bred the mare and she foaled another dwarf.. so I do not think it mattered who the sire was.She in my mind is a dwarf.

Now to answer the ? did I tell the breeder of the mare that she IMHO is a dwarf and carried dwarf foals. YES I did.

They did not take it well... lets just say they and others pretty much told me if I do not know how to play the game get out. LOL

I guess in a way I'm out. But hey I did not bred known dwarfs or dwarf carriers.... and this breeder is still doing it and knows full well they are. I was told they have one mare who has a dwarf about every 2 or 3 years!! But it still being bred..

I agree and believe that every dwarf and dwarf carrier shown be named, registered as a dwarf or carrier. So any one can look up any horse and see for them selfs if they maybe or might be a carrier. And make up thier own minds weather or not to bred that horse.

But it will never happen as long a money is the main reason so many breed.

I think it all comes down to one thing.

OH! NOT EVERY MINIATURE HORSE SHOULD BE BRED!!

It just never seems to surprise me how many miniature horses are bred that should never be, just because a horse is under 38" does not mean that it has to be bred.. to see what you get. Let alone one known to have given birth to a dwarf needs to be bred again. Or just has faults. If a QH had the same fautls would you bred it??

There a 10,000s of miniature mares and stallions out there. I can not see why a mare or stallion ( no matter how nice) needs to be bred. Let alone ones of poor conformation and dwarf carriers, let alone dwarfs..

If it's a stallion geld him and if it a mare hopfuly find her a pet only home....at the very least remove thier papers..

But this will never happen because the driving factor in the AMHR and AMHA is money,not the betterment of the breed.

 

[Danielle_E.]

That is truly sad but I don't think I have ever heard before of miniature horses being sold at a "flea market". Yes there are unscrupulous people in this world and also very gullible people in this world. You would think with a price tag of $1,000 that the buyer wouldn't just decide on a whim to buy one but then again there all kinds in this world but I do think this is the exception and not the norm, thank God. Most full blown dwarves would never survive a full term pregnancy, let alone the resulting foal.

 

[nootka]

I think, if you determine one of your horses looks dwarfy, it's up to you, the breeder, to decide what to do...

That's going to be different for every breeder, but ideally, it would be best to sterilize the animal (would that it were affordable and low-risk to spay mares like it is geldings) to ensure no breeding, but other than that, we keep them, no breeding, or we find homes where we are reasonably sure they will not be bred and also understand why.

Depending on why the horse looks dwarfy (i.e., like my filly, whose only real debilitating symptom was the underbite), they may be able to work, but chances are, the fact that they are a dwarf predisposes them to being merely pets.

I don't know that you need to "notify" anyone, though I would certainly wish to receive the information for myself, if a mare I sold had a dwarf, or a stallion I bred, etc.

As Carol mentioned, there are enough breeders out there obviously breeding known and very visibly dwarf horses, so they would be less interested as I know to them, dwarfs are acceptable risks to them. Still others intentionally breed them, and they would be mildly interested, but unchanged.

The bottom line is that all of this is information for individual use. It's only out there so that we can better make decisions and be prepared for the consequences. It is not meant to pass judgment nor to make anyone feel uncomfortable, merely shed light that might not have been there, previously.

Liz M.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

littlearab - just so you know .. not that it trulymatters but if the stallion (your stallion) covered the mare June 15th the foal could have easily been born and viable at 300 days April 11th.

Many large horse vets are just not used to it being normal for minis to foal at anywhere from 300-320 days being the average compared to the 340-360 avg for large horses

 

[MSRminis]

If only the registries would allow NON Breeding Papers-similar to a limited AKC registration. Than owners could still sell the mares with the papers explaining who they are but the registries would NOT Register any offspring. The owners of dwarf foals or ones that have had dwarf foals could voluntarily get NON breeding papers...

 

[littlearab]

"Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis" Yes I know that and understand that being born 31 days early that in it self does mean the foal could not of been out of my stallion.

But my vet said with Hobbits dwarf issues, he was a full blown dwarf. I posted many photos of him ect. He colic 2 times in 3 weeks and had breathing issues fro the frist breath. Hobbit was never healthy. My vet said in his 35 years he never saw one so bad. He believes that a dwarf foal was born 31 days early with such heath issues would not of lived. Most dwarf foals, he said are born late not early.

And like I said weather or not my stallion sired that dwarf foal really is not a issue in my mind as she has dwarf issues. I did not see them rigth away until I looked with a more trianed eye and she had another dwarf foal . 2 for 2

If I ever have a dwarf foal out of him he will be gelded, not problem.. if I was not going by my vets who has many years of dealing with miniautres I would of gelded him 2 years ago.

And like I said IMHO any horse who is not near perfect should not be bred. Not matter what the bred.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Oh no I realize you werent saying there was no way it could be your stallion and that the issue of whoses stallion wasnt really important was just wanting to let you know.

Our little dwarf Sadie was born at 275 days -280 days fromher breeding dates she was pretty premature and did have to be in the hosptial for the first 30 days due to that I realize she was the exception rather then the rule though

 

[angelheart]

I have been reading the threads on dwarfism with great interest and have found them to be very educational and thought provoking. I have a newer program and have been studing both the history and genetics of the Miniature horses but have have much to learn. It is important to me that my horses be healthy and sound and of good quality. I would like to share my thoughts in hopes of shedding some light on the subject. I want to say upfront that the last thing I want to do is step on anyones toes and if I do am sorry.

I am not entirely new to breeding as I have been involved with Newfoundland dogs for many years and have applyied alot of what I have learned from the dogs to my horses.

Newfoundland dogs have two major health risks .. heart problems and hip displasia. 10 - 15 years ago Newfoundlands only had a life expectancy of 8 years. Now their life expectancy is more than 10 years. The reason being is that the majority of Newfoundland Breeders spayed and nuetred any dogs who had bad hips and bad hearts. Like Dwarfism both of these traits are recessive and when puppies born to perfectly healthy parents developed bad hearts or Hip displasia they were also no longer bred.

Recessesive genes are the most difficult to erradicate as they do not show themselves unless they are inherited from both the dam and sire. If a recesssive gene is juas inherited from one parent the offspring will be a carrier but will not have the defect themselves.

If Dwarfism in minaiture horses acts similar to other recessive genes then a perfectly put together horse could be a carrier and there would be no visable means of knowing that. A miniature horse that is a dwarf would have to have inherited the dwarf gene from both the dam and sire. Therefore if a dwarf foal is born to a particular mare and stallion they would both be carriers. The Dwarf itself would have two dwarf genes and if bred to another horse would certainly pass that gene to it's foal. Now can a miniature horse that is a dwarf parent a normal miniature horse? The answer would be yes it could if the other parent did not donate a dwarf gene to the foal. The foal even though it would be perfect phsicaly would have to be a carrier because it would have gotten the one dwarf gene fromt he dwarf parent but becassue it is recessive the foal does not present the gene but only carries it.

What this is telling us is that if a stallion and mare produce a dwarf foal they are both carriers. They may not produce annother dwarf if bred to non-carriers but they will 50% of the time pass the recessive dwarf gene to their foals.

In my opinion a mare and stallion who produces a dwarf should not ever again be used for breeding purposes. When selling a stallion or mare who produced a dwarf the ethical thing to do would be to inform all parties and sell them as pet quality. To me it seems If we are breeding for the betterment of the breed this is the only course that makes sense.

 

[Danielle_E.]

What this is telling us is that if a stallion and mare produce a dwarf foal they are both carriers. They may not produce annother dwarf if bred to non-carriers but they will 50% of the time pass the recessive dwarf gene to their foals.

Can I ask where you get this "50% of the time". If you have a non-carrier (mare) and a recessive carrier stallion or vice versa, doesn't sound to me like it would be 50% of the time.

I was under the impression that if a mare is a recessive carrier and the stallion is as well that the probability is 25% possibility of a full blown dwarf. Those two could also NOT pass on their recessive gene and have a normal and non-carrier foal as well.

It's a little like LWO. If you breed to LWO to each other you have a 25% chance of having a Lethal White foal that will die soon after birth.

 

[Marty]

You may know of people that intentionally breed dwarfs.

I do.

They say there is a big market for them so they breed them and apparently get good money for them.

I think it's shameful.