Starting a Pair

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Not once did I suggest that you were a beginner driver. What I said was "For someone who has little or no experience with driving a team". The very best advice to give in this instance was "Find someone knowledgeable to give you a hand". As an experienced driver I would think that you would understand the inherent risks involved and realize yourself that you need someone on hand, to give you a hand.

For those ones that are pm'ing you and saying "they don't dare post here" I would wonder: is it because their advice would not stand up to public scrutiny?

Glad to see that you are still here and haven't abandoned us entirely
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Be assured that we will help you as much as we possibly can with specific questions regarding training rather than a blanket "how do you go about it".
 
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"As an experienced driver I would think that you would understand the inherent risks involved and realize yourself that you need someone on hand, to give you a hand.

For those ones that are pm'ing you and saying "they don't dare post here" I would wonder: is it because their advice would not stand up to public scrutiny?"

With a herd of six including biggies, I can assure you I understand ALL the inherent risks involved. It would be great to have someone on hand at any time, not just during driving. That's not always the case for some of us. I'm not saying I'm going to run out and hitch up a pair on my own...please don't misconstrue that.

I wasn't given a reason why the PMr's refuse to post and I didn't ask. I'm just grateful they did reply with offers to help.
 
Speaking as the one who posted the info on Connie's blog, it's safe to assume I do not consider the subject taboo. Asked and answered.

Nobody here really knows your level of experience, and after reading the horrendous Ehow "instructions" on training a mini to drive, I think everyone is a bit gun-shy about web advice. Not knowing you and not having read the blog, it is only natural to urge caution. A bit of an overgeneralization? True, but in my opinion better that than the alternative.

Keep in mind that most often those who warn you about the dangers of driving speak from experience and simply want you and your horses to remain safe.

I can forgive others just about anything when they are concerned about the animals involved.

As for anyone feeling that they "dare not post here," give me a break. Yes, people are opinionated -- and rightly so. The exchange of info so far on this board is excellent, and some of it is potentially lifesaving. Nobody is walking on eggshells, thank goodness, but simply stating the truth. Give me that any day over the namby-pamby-don't-hurt-anyone's-feelings kind of crap that so often passes for forum "advice." JMO.
 
I also wonder if the PM's were mentioning the website that addresses pair driving. The Mods don't like other website addresses mentioned, and therefore they dare not post here.
 
Nope...no websites mentioned in the PM's. Just assistance offered if needed from other LB members.

Connie also invited me to share my pairs ground driving experiences on her blog once I get started.
 
The OP needs to understand that people with all ranges of experience will take what they read in this thread and apply it to their own situations. This is not a private, one on one, discussion.
 
For those ones that are pm'ing you and saying "they don't dare post here" I would wonder: is it because their advice would not stand up to public scrutiny?
As a mod the only reason that I know that some people won't post here is because they are constantly challenged by a others who feel that the only way is "their way". If you have driven a large number of horses and have the experience of a number of different individuals you will know that all horses are different and all will respond in different ways.......and not always by the so called book. Training every single horse is different. There is no set "one way" to do anything. So Lori, you might be right. I think a lot of people are put off because some of their ideas do get "scrutinized". But that is just the way a Forum is....you take the good, the bad and the ugly.

I also wonder if the PM's were mentioning the website that addresses pair driving. The Mods don't like other website addresses mentioned, and therefore they dare not post here
Rhinestone......Hello by the way........glad to see you on the Forum.
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This is the rule pertaining to links.

Posts directing LB traffic to other online auctions, sale boards. forums, and/or interactive Miniature horse sites without permission/agreement will also be removed.
The "mods" only want the rules followed and that is the rule pertaining to links. I seriously hope that people are not afraid to post on the Forum because of that rule.

As for anyone feeling that they "dare not post here," give me a break. Yes, people are opinionated -- and rightly so. The exchange of info so far on this board is excellent, and some of it is potentially lifesaving. Nobody is walking on eggshells, thank goodness, but simply stating the truth. Give me that any day over the namby-pamby-don't-hurt-anyone's-feelings kind of crap that so often passes for forum "advice." JMO.
I couldn't agree more! NOBODY should feel like that can't post. And if you have a problem PLEASE contact a mod and they will help. This Forum is for everyone! There are many people out there who have won a lot on the National level and have had a lot of driving experience in other venues! It certainly would be nice to hear from all of you.
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There are also people who are just starting out and know absolutely nothing and they are just as welcome.
 
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" The OP needs to understand that people with all ranges of experience will take what they read in this thread and apply it to their own situations. This is not a private, one on one, discussion."

Isn't that what occurs on any thread that is read? I'm sorry, I really don't see what the problem was with my thread in comparison to all the others in which you give advice on moving/adjusting harnesses, raising/lowering breeching, altering carts, etc., etc. (just to name a few). One person responding had said ground driving pairs is just too involved to explain on the internet.....funny, the discussions regarding CDE training and eventing get pretty involved. Or maybe it's because as someone else said "we don't know you". I can see now why ppl would be afraid to post
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I'm done
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:wacko .
 
What I meant is to not be upset if some of the responses do not apply to your situation -- they will apply to some other people reading
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I'm sorry that you have taken offense, but there have been no replies on this thread that are not valid and reasonable
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I haven't spent much time on the drivingpairs website, but when I looked today, Hardy Zantke has four articles that average about 10 paragraphs each addressing how to start a pair entitled 101-104. I think what most people here were trying to say is that it is so involved that it just can't be explained effectively in a few paragraphs if Hardy needs four separate LONG articles. If there is a specific question that can be answered, I think forums can be useful. But beyond that, it becomes a cumbersome method of education unless there is a source to redirect to, such as a good book, person, or other website.
 
I haven't spent much time on the drivingpairs website, but when I looked today, Hardy Zantke has four articles that average about 10 paragraphs each addressing how to start a pair entitled 101-104. I think what most people here were trying to say is that it is so involved that it just can't be explained effectively in a few paragraphs if Hardy needs four separate LONG articles. If there is a specific question that can be answered, I think forums can be useful. But beyond that, it becomes a cumbersome method of education unless there is a source to redirect to, such as a good book, person, or other website.
That is exactly what I was trying to say! Well put. There isn't a person on here that could reply to such an open question in a single thread. If we were to try things would get missed and that would not be a good thing.
 
I have a great deal of experience driving singles - and I have 3 matching appaloosa youngsters that I plan to drive as multiples once they've each been broke to drive singly. I even half-joke to my friends that my goal is to have a matched 6-up with 2 spare horses to drive a stagecoach!
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I *KNOW* that I don't know how to hitch or drive multiples, and I will be doing more studying at our local driving shows and with my driving friends (some of whom are professional carriage drivers) before I ever attempt to drive more than one horse - and well before I get a pairs or team harness, or attempt to hitch a pair for ground driving. All those straps have a purpose and I don't have or use many of them in driving singles... and even after many years of casual and interested watching at shows, I don't know enough to keep the right communication going between me and more than one harnessed horse at a time.
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I am glad that the words of caution are going on in this thread, and I'm sorry the OP decided to take them all personally. I didn't see ANYTHING in this thread accusing her personally of being too green to drive a pair - but her question of "What is the proper way and what equipment is needed to do this?" (hitch and ground drive a pair) indicates to me that she - like me... hasn't studied this in person enough.

There is a lot of "jargon" to learn in any new venture... or in a new method of a familiar venture... and driving multiples is no exception. I want to learn the names and purposes of the extra straps and rings and things before I start purchasing equipment! An example of this "jargon" would be like when I learned to handspin wool - it was like the books and online lists were speaking another language when they spoke of how to spin - and I dove in before I'd learned a lot of it! Yes, it forced me to learn more in order to continue to better my spinning, but I bought and sold a lot of wool and equipment - selling at a loss, of course... before I knew enough of the language to even ask the questions I had in a manner that people could [SIZE=10pt]easily[/SIZE] answer.

As people have said - there are whole books and Looong articles written to answer these questions... and you can learn the required vocabulary from the books - but for most people, myself included - seeing and feeling are the best ways to learn the proper names, adjustments, etc.

So vague and open questions are MUCH harder to answer online than "Here's a photo of my single driving horse hitched up - what can I adjust or make better?" I don't expect any of my fellow forum participants to sit down and write me a book any time that I ask a question!

ALL that aside... here's a question I haven't asked anyone driving multiples yet. Is hitching a pair in training better done with a 2 wheeled cart and pole or with a 4 wheeled wagon of some kind? (I already know I want one with a cut under for the front wheels!)
 
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Four wheels and a pole. No exceptions. I know that there has been some on this forum that have said they are going to start their pair with a cart and a pole, but #1 - they either understand the ramifications for doing so, or #2 - don't have a clue about how dangerous this is.

Traditionally, there were two vehicles that were made for a pair to a cart, the Cape Cart and the Curricle. Both had extra adjustments made to the cart and harness to do so. Both were replaced at the time (relatively quickly) by four wheel vehicles, because people (who drove for real to get from Point A to Point B) realized that it was a dangerous proposition to put a pole on a cart. It makes the whole thing EXTREMELY tippy. If the people that used them for real decided it was a bad thing, then those of us that don't drive for real should, too.
 
Thanks - since so many of the cart (easy entry, 2-wheeled) makers offer team poles... I had no idea that it was dangerous - just knew that I hadn't seen any with pairs at the local harness shows.

Is it easier for a team to tip a 2-wheeled cart? Harder to turn correctly?

I keep looking for the wagon I want for my future pairs/teams... I'm thinking of a mini wagonette-type I think... have to save my pennies!

Am I correct in assuming that it might be better to know what wagon (dimensions, hook ups, etc) that I'm gonna hitch a pair to *before* I go harness shopping for multiples harnesses?
 
It is MUCH easier for a team or pair to tip a 2 wheel cart - WAY too easy! It just should NOT be done.

When you are looking for a wagonette try to find one that is cutunder so that the wheels don't come up against the side of the body of the wagon. The turning radius on these vehicles is much larger than a 2 wheel cart which can practically spin on a dime and for someone not used to it you can get the wheels wedged against the box and the wagon can or will go over as well. If you can't get a cutunder be VERY careful when turning that you keep on a large enough arc to prevent this.

You can use either a breast or a neck collar harness for a pair, tandem, etc. Once you find your vehicle you can make adaptions to your harness to fit the vehicle so it doesn't really matter which you get first but I would take into consideration what you have when you go shopping for either.
 
"I haven't spent much time on the drivingpairs website, but when I looked today, Hardy Zantke has four articles that average about 10 paragraphs each addressing how to start a pair entitled 101-104. I think what most people here were trying to say is that it is so involved that it just can't be explained effectively in a few paragraphs if Hardy needs four separate LONG articles. If there is a specific question that can be answered, I think forums can be useful. But beyond that, it becomes a cumbersome method of education unless there is a source to redirect to, such as a good book, person, or other website."

"That is exactly what I was trying to say! Well put. There isn't a person on here that could reply to such an open question in a single thread. If we were to try things would get missed and that would not be a good thing."

"So vague and open questions are MUCH harder to answer online than "Here's a photo of my single driving horse hitched up - what can I adjust or make better?" I don't expect any of my fellow forum participants to sit down and write me a book any time that I ask a question!"

That is all I was looking for such as a reference to the above mentioned article. I didn't realize "what is needed to start a pair?" was too vague. I never expected anyone to "write me a book" from the question. Looks like you've got a pretty good discussion going regarding the four wheel vehicles. I have been looking at the mini buckboard wagonettes as well. This is what I was asking to begin with...just the basics.

I think this thread is finally moving forward
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I have been driving a pair for a number of years, albeit not 'all the time'. I began w/o lessons, though I've since taken a clinic with Hardy Zantke, along with other very knowledgeable ADS whips/judges! What I had going for me was a LOT of prior years of horse training/using experience.

I first joined ADS a number of years ago; was lucky to make some good choices in books from their list of titles-got a good deal of practical help from those books, which include "Make the Most of Carriage Driving", by V. and R. Ellis and J. Claxton-this especially helpful on basics; though the emphasis is on driving in the UK, it is a very useful tome--along w/ "Drive On", Doris Ganton's more 'advanced' book, and the phamplet on Turnout and Appointments from the CAA.

I own three pair vehicles...a back to back custom built English trap, a Glinkowski 'mini-mix' marathon vehicle(not the wagonette style), and an all-wooden buckboard. The trap is cut-under, but does have a 'reach'; the Glink is cut-under, w/ NO reach, and the buckboard has smaller front wheels(that will actually 'pass under' the wagon box), and a reach. Most maneuverable is the Glink. 4 wheeled vehicles will 'generally' have a higher center of gravity, so should have a reasonably 'wide' wheel base,AND, be cut-under w/ NO reach(the reach will still be a 'limiter'), for better stability, other things being equal.

Several years back, a couple began building the CUTEST little 'covered wagons' for minis! When I first saw the ads, I coveted one! BUT, in the course of my ongoing driving education, I realized the vehicles were actually pretty dangerous to drive, because they had a VERY limited ability to turn, due to no cut under, front wheels too large to 'pass under' the box, a high center of gravity and relatively narrow wheel base. When shopping for a vehicle, this is good knowledge to have!!

I'd recommend brakes on any 4 wheel vehicle you may use 'off pavement' or over uneven or hilly terrain. They don't need to be on all four wheels, however. In ADS, it is required to have either breeching or brakes on any 4 wheeled vehicle; sometimes you will see a more elegant turnout w/o breeching, but for practical everyday use, having BOTH is actually a very good idea, especially if the vehicle and its 'load' are possibly relatively heavy, and/or there will be any use over uneven terrain, or at speed.

To keep from writing a book, I recommend you research what a 'reach' is, and why it is pertinent;a 'fifth wheel' and its application; also, a suspended vs a drop pole, a 'crab' vs a pole w/ a yoke, types of brakes, etc.--whether or not you want/need an 'evener', and the like---as these may pertain to the kind of driving and vehicle abilities/limitations YOU would want. Also good to know...at least in the US, wooden wheel diameters are expressed WITHOUT the rubber tire 'inserts'--meaning that if you want wheels that have an 'actual' diameter of 26", you would ask for 24" wooden wheels, as the inserts are 1" 'deep', adding 2" to the 'actual' rolling diameter of the wooden wheels. I *think* it is the same for steel/aluminum wheels in North American-built vehicles, but be sure to ASK!

British/European-made vehicles differ; for instance, my UK-built Bennington cart has wheels that are @ 24" TOTAL diameter(they are expressed in cm), and the stated diameter INCLUDES the rubber inserts...on the Benny, the rubber is rounded, and nearly 2" in width. The Glinkowski is similarly expressed, and similar in width of the wheel/rubber inserts, though it is a 'flat' insert.

A crucial part of pair equipment is the pair reins, and the proper adjustment thereof; the Ellis-Claxon book refers to 'draught'(draft) and 'coupling' reins, and their proper adjustment is especially crucial, for it can affect how the pair works/pulls. This is an area where an experienced pair instructor would be MOST helpful, IMO.

Know that the most important 'match' between pair horses is probably how they 'stride' together--not their color, not even their height/build, but whether they move similarly at the various gaits--AND whether they 'get along' w/ each other, and are equally willing workers.

As for using a pole for a cart...I actually bought one for my Frontier for the first 'drives' of my pair(both of whom have always been trained as singles first; I have had several different 'pairings'; the only one I ever had a issue with was the least-experienced as a single; he 'leaned' to the outside in a pair hookup. I sold him for a single, so didn't really have to try to 'work him out' of that behavior!) I believe it was 'OK' for the initial and very basic pair hookups, but would not recommend it for 'regular' use.There is actually a

There actually is a pair cart that has been, perhaps still is, used for Freisians in their homeland...have seen video of it, but don't know how well it actually 'works'. The few configurations I know of--the curricle, and the Cape Cart, which is said to have actually worked fairly well?-were 'special' set-ups--one CD-Ler spent a great deal of time, research, and I believe, money, having a Cape cart 'replicated' for her mammoth mule pair...so it's not really what the 'average' driver would probably want to try....

As for pair harness...I got the one I use 'everyday' from The Carriage House, in FL. It is a beta biothane, utilitarian, ordered it with the 'parts' to be able to switch it to two 'singles. It is made by the same fellow who makes Country Carriages' similar beta harnesses..Yoni.

There are several good sources for mini pair harness nowadays. You do need to know what kind of ends are on the swingletrees to 'match' up w/ the traces. I'd also recommend buckle-in traces, AND the use of quick release snap shackles, at least for everyday usage.

This is far from a 'complete' listing, but is part of what it can help to know about vehicles for pairs and other side-by-side multiple hitches(and 'abbreviated', it's still nearly a book!!

Margo
 
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I don't think there is one; from what I understand, he is Amish, and they seldom have websites. You might try contacting Country Carriages or The Carriage House? Both have websites; just google for them. I have no idea whether he sells 'direct' or only through dealers. Both mentioned here have good reputations, based on customer comments I've read.

Margo
 
My understanding is that Yonie does sell direct to the public.

Someone posted this contact information on either the MiniDriving list or CD-L. I haven't tried it, and it was a year or so back, but no harm in giving it a try.

yonie harness

610-273-7370

Ask for Jonathan and he answers the phone only between 12 and 12:30' but will return a message if left at other time
 

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