Sticking Stifle Conformation Clinic

[Silver City Heritage Farmstead]

Hi everyone

I'm starting this topic as I myself own a gelding who has sticking stifles. We have many threads that address this, with just as many opinions as to whether it is due to faulty conformation, genetics or both. There are ideas about what weight to keep the horse at, whether or not conditioning improves or worsens it, whether or not it is totally due to condition or only conformation...the list goes on.

What I'd like to do is a comparison of hindquarter conformation pictures to train my eye to see how to determine sticking stifles. I'm not sure what angles are the ones at fault for this.....

What I'd like to see would be a side shot of the hindquarters from the last rib back on each side of the horse. Also, one from straight behind, without the tail blocking the view of the hind legs. If you have a horse with sticking stifles that are NOT an issue for him/her at when their at different levels of conditioning, I'd like to see them as well.

When I started this post, I intended to include pictures of my gelding. Seems like I moved them from my phone to my laptop at home, so I'll have to post mine after work on Saturday. Until then, I hope other folks will get the pictures started.

Thank you all so much for helping me with this, I very much appreciate it!

Julie in NC

 

[Minimor]

I can give you a photo of a horse with very good stifle conformation--I always say that if all Minis had stifle conformation like hers...locking stifle would not be an issue in the breed .

 

[Minimor]

As an extra note--the stifle angle is the one to look at and that is viewed from the side. A rear view will not tell you anything about stifle angle. A normal hind leg has a stifle angle of 135*. When the stifle is extended to 143-145* the patella hooks over the inside Ridge. The straight legged horse may have a stifle angle closer to 140 and so even a very slight misstep may extend it the extra 3-5* it takes to cause the stifle to lock.

 

[Debby - LB]

Very good topic. I think I have some good photos. When I'm on my desktop I'll post them.

 

[Debby - LB]

I realize now you want actual horse photos. What I have are some diagrams, hope these help.

 

[Silver City Heritage Farmstead]

Tried to upload pics from the phone.....nyeh....not gonna happen tonight. Thank you for the diagrams Debbie. I'm sure we can make use of them.

Minimor, the reason I will be posting both side and rear views is this: severity. Some folks have had good results with conditioning programs, others have not. My opinion is that, while a conformation flaw may be in one part of the horse, all the parts tie together. Do cow hocks make sticky stifles worse? Weak gaskins? Narrow hips? Type of muscle (a lean hunter type vs. a drafty stock type?)

I'll be toting the laptop to the library tomorrow so that I can get my pics uploaded. Dandy had to be treated for ulcers this spring, so I'll be including some explanations of how he's progressed.

 

[Tremor]

I have a 2013 colt (soon to be gelding, slow dropper) that has stifle issues. I haven't done anything with him, he is on pasture/dry lot.

Yearling:

2015:

 

[Minimor]

Yes all parts tie together in terms of conformation and overall quality. Just saying that on my experience locking stifle relates to stifle conformation and nothing much else. Straight stifles are the problem, especially if they are also thin stifles. I judge stifles by stifles alone and have not yet had a horse with locking stifles. That is in 50 years of horse ownership. The one Morgan that did have some stifle lameness (not locking) came as no surprise because her stifle conformation was poor.

It has been my observation that while condition g can help overcome a weak stifle--if the horse has strong stifle conformation he can grow fast, he can stand around and be out of condition, he can be thin, or fat, he can have overly long hind feet, and he still will not have sticky stifles. If stifle conformation is weak--any one of those things can trigger locking stifle.

Not arguing--just stating my observations from many years of studying horses, their conformation and how conformation affects movement.

 

[Silver City Heritage Farmstead]

Success!! Took some resizing, but got them on here!! He's still a little thin, but coming along nicely now that the ulcers have been treated.

I give anyone with paint programs permission to draw lines to show his angles more clearly. He has very open angles from point of buttock to hip and point of buttock to stifle. As he's gained weight, he has gotten less sticky. He's never really locked up, however, he's done some obvious popping. The worst times were tight turns and lifting his feet to pick them out.

Minimor, by thin stifle are you talking about no gaskin development like I see here?

 

[Minimor]

Thin as in no width when you draw a line horizontally through the stifle joint.

 

[Silver City Heritage Farmstead]

Thank you Minimor.



Here is Spanky's hindquarter shot. He is a stock/draft type gelding. He has much better angle's than Dandy. If you draw a horizontal line through his stifle, compared to Dandy's, you can see that Dandy has the thinness Minimor explained while Spanky does not. Spanky also toes out in the back.

I'm starting another conformation thread for educational use by our new and junior members. Feel free to comment on, and draw lines on, either of my horses.

Julie in NC

 

[Minimor]

I am finally on my laptop so here is a photo of a better than average stifle...if every Miniature horse had a stifle like this, there would not be a locking stifle problem in the breed.

Note the width in the stifle joint...you can draw a rectangle, not a triangle, in this mare's hindquarter. She also has a good angle.

 

[paintponylvr]

Here are pictures of DanD's sire - All That Style N' Class - barn name of "Iggy". 1998 stallion (deceased in 2014).

While being shown in 2000 as a 2 yr old -

2006 - in winter coat - 8 yrs old

At 9 and then at 10 yrs of age -

and at 15 yrs of age -

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

Iggy is stunning!!!

 

[paintponylvr]

He is! And I loved him.

BUT he is the sire of quite a number of "Sticky stifled" babies out of different mares and I wonder now if that is why he was sold so many times. I was his last owner.

He has straight legs - viewed from front and back as well as from the side (a leg at each corner and a plumb level line dropped was center right thru forearm, knee, cannon & hoof- front and same for the rear) and a decent stride though not nearly as long as our first stallion's stride was. He did bring correctness to the ponies he put on the ground as in straight. But he brought other things I wasn't happy about. For me (and I didn't see it until later - part of that "still learning thing"), his legs are much too long for his body (LOVE that body - more in a bit). Has too much air between that body and the ground. While he eventually learned to stride out - he started with that what I call "that shetland/mini short stride thing" type of gait. Mincy and prancy up and down w/ no extension in front or back. It is now (w/ age & shed out) quite noticeable that he has "light bone" or is "really refined" and lacking substance in that bone. Pretty sure those bones were round (cannons - fore & aft, forearm and gaskin). Shoulders are nicely laid back - could be more so. Short back and good loin. To me, his stifle if pretty good - though not as large as the ponies that minimor has posted.

Seems that quite a few of his foals got the refinement (lack of substance) in the bone. Some are much more refined than the others. He refined the necks, heads and bodies of the mares I bred him to as well - a couple of those mares are course. That was why I purchased him - thought it would be better. Now, I'm not so sure. There are some things I would have done differently now. May still be able to do.

Not sure what everyone is meaning when they say "round bone" or why it is desirable. When I was growing up - you wanted flat bone - especially in the legs... Live and learn - I am confused about that right now. Of course, when I was growing up, MANY of the horses & ponies (all breeds) were built like the mini that Minimor posted and had that type of neck, too. We've prettied up and refined down all breeds in the last 50 years - losing substance in the frame/legs in a lot of bloodlines along with getting the "pretty".

Here are pics of DanD's dam - at different ages. Sorry, some of them are angled as I don't have many pics of her.

As a yearling -

She had been going out on drives with us - but not officially being "worked"...

One of her pregnant pics (aug 2013). Her last time going out with me was in May - you can see she's lost muscle conditioning her - though she has definitely gained weight (preggo belly). She foaled on August 31st.

More recent photo - taken in June 2015. She is 7 yrs old.

and another pasture shot in July -

I didn't plan on breeding "Cheri" to "Iggy". I DID actually feel that that combo would produce a pony too light in bone structure. She was the one who "chose" Iggy and the 3rd day in a row I found her in his pasture w/ his mares, I left her there. She went thru 2 hot fences to get to him (the fences worked to keep other ponies including another mature stallion, that HATED IGGY, apart just fine). I don't really want to cross her on her 1/2 brother either (though it HAS been recommended). I have an upcoming, young stallion prospect sired by our original stallion and out of a differently bred mare (think around 50% arenosa breeding? have to look). Right now, I'm not sure he is the right fit for her either - he is lighter than I'd thought he would be and ... not even sure he will remain a stallion.

There ARE a couple of other stallions out there that I would love to cross her on (add more substance?). Probably not going to happen as I'm not able to purchase other ponies right now and probably won't ever send her out of state to be bred. Could change - she's still young. OR she may never be actually bred again... She doesn't have to be. She has a wonderful personality and temperment and I'm working on getting our place set so that she and her dam (same personality, more substance) and she will have jobs like our previous ponies have. She has been started in ground driving - single.

 

[Minimor]

Paula--round bone still is not desirable. If anyone is wanting round bone (i missed that if it has been said here) then they do not know much about conformation and need to study up on it. Round bone is weak bone--just as coarse bone is more porous and therefore weaker than is desirable. Bone should be flat--and people need to realize that more refined bone (provided it is not too fine/thin) is more dense and therefore stronger than coarse or round bone.

 

[paintponylvr]

and in comparison - Here is our first stallion. AJ is 45" tall. Foundation in type, but couldn't be shown due to over the height limit. Wouldn't be competitive as a Classic in 90s, definitely not now.

1st pic - vet stated he is overweight by 75 - 100 lbs. Scale weighed at 555 lbs right around this time frame. This is 2 weeks after arriving in NC from MT. He is 5 yrs old. One of my favorite pics of a pony, though!

A year later - he has been driving for almost a year now as well as being used for breeding and riding. Somewhere I have this pic in larger format, but can't find it right now, sorry!

No longer standing him square, he and I are learning the stretch pose... He's 7 years old here.

and my favorite 2 pics of him. Sorry - going from small to extra large! He was not being used for breeding. He was being lounged, driven in the sulky cart and ridden for riding lessons. His mane is short as he is being campaigned at open and H/J shows as a hunter type pony - along with 5 of his offspring that we were hauling that year.

I want to say that AJ sired 33 shetland and shetland cross babies - can't find my list right now. Except for one who is a pasture pony and the youngest who is just now 2 years of age, all were started in harness and under saddle and became serious performance ponies (I have one who was only started and hasn't gone anywhere yet...so 2 "pasture pets"). Many, while having his extension and sometimes a lot more, also inherited his "crooked" right leg - off center from knee to hoof and always considered to be a SERIOUS fault. YET, his foals have done better, been sounder overall, then Iggy's.

Their stifles don't appear to be that much different to me. The substance isn't too different - though overall - AJ was just a MUCH bigger pony - everywhere...

Am I wrong?