"Straight" Miniatures?? I dont understand

[HGFarm]

Ok, so I hear different folks talking about 'straight Miniatures' vs. Shetlands.... etc... Can someone please explain to me what a 'straight Miniature' is? Is this a different breed that came from somewhere else or exactly what is the definition please? Thanks in advance.

 

[disneyhorse]

It's a term some individuals are trying to coin to define a horse that is only registered AMHR and not ASPC also.

I don't believe that the horse itself looks drastically different.

 

[HGFarm]

Interesting, but the ones that are double registered or even triple registered R, A and ASPC- it's the same horse. And if they qualify in size, they are all Miniatures.

 

[mydaddysjag]

Straight miniature means a miniature without the shetland blood thats getting real common lately. I dont have any beef with shetlands, have one, but I also have a "straight miniature" with no shetland anywhere (unless you want to get into the debate of 50 years ago they were all shetlands etc. but when people are using this term, they generally mean no shetland in the last 4-5 generations or so)

 

[disneyhorse]

So if I have a herd of 100 ASPC/AMHR horses... Breed them for 10 generations but never keep up with the ASPC paperwork... They are suddenly "straight"?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It's just a term some use because they felt saying AMHR only is degrading so they started saying straight miniatures, ones that aren't AMHR/ASPC. For me personally you can call them however you like, same when people call their really small ones micro minis meaning they are really small but call them something different to maybe gain peoples attention and think they are something special.

 

[dannigirl]

The way I see it, a miniature is a miniature is a miniature. If it is within the height range, it is a miniature. It doesn't matter what its breeding is. Unless the registries close completely to outside horses, any horse that is either 38" or 34" and under can be a miniature horse. Calling any horse a straight miniature seems to be something that some will say to make them feel better about their equine when the chances are, they may have shetland in the backround or quarter horse or whatever. It is still a miniature. I have 53 miniature horses and the ones that some would refer to as "straight mini" have shetland in their backround. The papers are just not available for research, but the look is the same and if you look at my herd, you would be hard pressed to tell which is straight mini and which is shetland/mini. I have had people ask me if my minis--with no shetland parent--had shetland papers. The fact remains that miniature horses come in all shapes and sizes for all sorts of backrounds. In 1999, our miniature gelding with no shetland parents (on record anyway) was beat out in the grand champion class at nationals by a gelding that was supposedly the unusual cross between a small mini stallion and a full size mare. They gelded him because he could throw much taller babies, but hardshipped him in as a gelding and he was one amazing mini gelding.

 

[RayVik]

So if I have a herd of 100 ASPC/AMHR horses... Breed them for 10 generations but never keep up with the ASPC paperwork... They are suddenly "straight"?

No more or less then that 10th generation would be Shetland with 8 people voting yes. A simple stroke of the pen separates the most popular and highest population of small equine in the world from all the other small breeds only because what has become the great majority of the minority "breed" have control of the pen and argue what they "are not" by telling you what they are and claim they see no difference but that they don't like the looks and so on

The chicken or the egg debate is quickly being replaced with the Shetland or the Mini debate except the chicken is the moderator in this one

 

[Minimor]

Implement a 'straight miniature'division fir AMHR and I think people will be disappointed when they realize how many horses will not qualify.

10 generations without Shetland? There won't be many in the division--you will be hard put to find a lot with just four generations. Got Buckeroo (as just one example)on the papers? That horse is out. What about the horses that had ine name in ASPC and then were registered with a different ine in AMHR? I think some of you have Minis that have Shetlands on the papers and you don't even realize it!

Really, even an ancesyor hardshipped in from AMHA should make a horse ine ligule for 'straight' status ...because the pedigree is gone beyond that hardshipping.

How about "unknown" on the papers? Unknown can mean Shetland or welsh, neither of which is miniature when we are talking 'straight'.

 

[RayVik]

Perhaps it's just me but it so seems at every turn whenever a suggestion comes forth that addresses or one might say corrects certain perceived shortcomings in regards to the AMHR or miniature horse and particularly when the idea is based on a model similar to the ASPC or Shetland Pony the typical response is it will not work or achieve the desired results. For example is one expresses the miniature horse as something exclusive the respond is it is just a Shetland which is exclusive because it as it exist today evolved from crossbreeding, selective breeding and mix breed breeding whose divergents came about after a revalidation with all the reasons the ASPC found that nessacary so those who believed the miniature horse was exclusive in spite of the great deception did the same under the umbrella of the AMHA and AMHR in part seeking a standard as a goal and working and breeding toward it yet we are told the Shetland way was right and SUCCESSFUL and the miniature horse was not . When someone proposes there are different styles of miniature horses they are told it hey have no distinct characteristics to determine styles yet the Shetland pony can and does find its way into identifiable styles. The idea of foundation status based on AMHR only paper is not favored yet 4 generations are acceptable to the ASPC.

Most puzzling is the general assumption of pure numbers of animals to do any of these and other things

The miniature horse by all accounts outnumbers the Shetland pony by something between 5 and 10 to 1 based on registrations and or how or where you wish to draw your numbers from but regardless if the ASPC registered animal find reason and sustainability in doing these things with their smaller numbers how can a much larger group not do at least as well. And just to cover all bases IF these varies idea, divisions, etc are not working or being successful as intended then why are they not being addressed toward change or deletion.

Seems a lot of do as we say not as we do goes on in these discussions or one might consider it more along do as we will do as we want and you do as we tell you

 

[Just_Rena]

Does anyone know the total amount of registered horses for AMHR and ASPC for 2011? If you know please include foals, adults, and number of revoked papers.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Perhaps it's just me but it so seems at every turn whenever a suggestion comes forth that addresses or one might say corrects certain perceived shortcomings in regards to the AMHR or miniature horse and particularly when the idea is based on a model similar to the ASPC or Shetland Pony the typical response is it will not work or achieve the desired results. For example is one expresses the miniature horse as something exclusive the respond is it is just a Shetland which is exclusive because it as it exist today evolved from crossbreeding, selective breeding and mix breed breeding whose divergents came about after a revalidation with all the reasons the ASPC found that nessacary so those who believed the miniature horse was exclusive in spite of the great deception did the same under the umbrella of the AMHA and AMHR in part seeking a standard as a goal and working and breeding toward it yet we are told the Shetland way was right and SUCCESSFUL and the miniature horse was not . When someone proposes there are different styles of miniature horses they are told it hey have no distinct characteristics to determine styles yet the Shetland pony can and does find its way into identifiable styles. The idea of foundation status based on AMHR only paper is not favored yet 4 generations are acceptable to the ASPC.

Most puzzling is the general assumption of pure numbers of animals to do any of these and other things

The miniature horse by all accounts outnumbers the Shetland pony by something between 5 and 10 to 1 based on registrations and or how or where you wish to draw your numbers from but regardless if the ASPC registered animal find reason and sustainability in doing these things with their smaller numbers how can a much larger group not do at least as well. And just to cover all bases IF these varies idea, divisions, etc are not working or being successful as intended then why are they not being addressed toward change or deletion.

Seems a lot of do as we say not as we do goes on in these discussions or one might consider it more along do as we will do as we want and you do as we tell you

I agree. I given out several ideas on this forum in the past, foundation division similar to the foundation division that is in ASPC, just when it comes to AMHR you have just 4 generations back of no shetland papered breeding. Or start judging by type in the halter classes. I feel like if AMHR can come up with a whole new driving division which was greatly needed btw and it has shown successful and it's just as much popular today compared to the country pleasure class that we can surely come up with an idea. The draft halter class was introduced this year and I know several people are excited about this new class and planning on entering in it next year. I'm even looking at buying a horse to team up with my other one for the team driving, so without this class I would not be interested in the draft driving classes. I have said my ideas haven't been perfect and I have said if a group came together for ideas to save the AMHR only horse it would be more successful, but no one has come to help me, no one has invited me. And my ideas get shut down on here and I've just about had it. Seems like no one wants to see progress when it comes to the AMHR. We all talk about it but no action gets done. I think the easiest solution would be to just close hardshipping of horses.

 

[HGFarm]

dannigirl summed up what i was just going to say- A miniature is a miniature is a miniature. Why is there no specific 'type' of Mini? Because they are a height breed. That is it, plain and simple. I also agree with disneyhorse's point of just because the Shetland paperwork is no longer done, does that make a 'straight' Mini? It's still the same horse, lol

TEN GENERATIONS with no Shetland? I challenge anyone to name an American bred horse (not a Falabella), that has no Shetland in it if the generations are known at all for that far back.

Buckaroo has it close up within two generations, so yes that disqualifies him, and many of his well known offspring were out of mares with a lot of Shetland breeding as well. Rowdy, Gold Melody Boy, Champion Farms Nighthawk, Roan Ranger, Dippers Duffy, Shadow Oaks Top Banana, Shadow Oaks Cock Robin- just throwing some names out there- all have close up Shetland.

I know many of the old time breeders didnt mention the Shetland breeding or dropped it from their pedigrees, but used Shetlands in many of those horses with 'unknown' pedigrees. Dropping it or not mentioning it doesnt mean it isnt there.

 

[Flying minis]

JMS, that's just what I was thinking - has this ever been proposed? Stop hardshipping, of ALL breeds, including ASPC. That may be shutting the door late, but at least it stops the ongoing influence, or limits to those who are already in. Close the registry and work on becoming a REAL BREED. THEN address the type issues - and for all those who say it can't be done - it CAN be done, pinto does it very successfully, but it requires good breed and type standards, and an acceptance of all types as having worth. The AMHR is a club of members, the stop hardshipping proposal could be put forth for next year's convention, right? And having a year to work on it, maybe an effort could be made by all who agree with that proposal to get to the convention as much as possible in 2013, to push the proposal forward, and show support. Complaining here doesn't make any change. . . . if change is to happen, involvement must be frequent, visible, and vocal and must get to those who make decisions!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Does anyone know the total amount of registered horses for AMHR and ASPC for 2011? If you know please include foals, adults, and number of revoked papers.

I don't have the exact number I just have a financial sheet, and it compared 2012 and 2011 registrations. In ASPC numbers were slightly down. In AMHR numbers were slightly down in Temporary registration it was down just a lil over $100, in the registration of the B division numbers were down just over $350. However registration of geldings were up just over $600 and registration of the A division was up a whole lot of over $15,500. So it shows that the Under division in AMHR is still very strong.

 

[shelia]

I have heard some similar complaints about horses in AMHA so I would like to point out something I have read in the AMHA rule book. Halter Rules, Paragraph "H", page 98:

It is of utmost importance that judges realize that there are several types of miniature horses and that in each class the horses are to be judged as to the best horse of all types to be the winner. They should not be prejudiced to the horse of his/her background.

The winners are chosen by the judges, so therefore, the trend is guided by the judges. As long as the judges are following the rules, the system is working.

We as breeders are striving to improve our herd with each new generation. Some don't think these are improvements, Some do. It seems like the judges do.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

JMS, that's just what I was thinking - has this ever been proposed? Stop hardshipping, of ALL breeds, including ASPC. That may be shutting the door late, but at least it stops the ongoing influence, or limits to those who are already in. Close the registry and work on becoming a REAL BREED. THEN address the type issues - and for all those who say it can't be done - it CAN be done, pinto does it very successfully, but it requires good breed and type standards, and an acceptance of all types as having worth. The AMHR is a club of members, the stop hardshipping proposal could be put forth for next year's convention, right? And having a year to work on it, maybe an effort could be made by all who agree with that proposal to get to the convention as much as possible in 2013, to push the proposal forward, and show support. Complaining here doesn't make any change. . . . if change is to happen, involvement must be frequent, visible, and vocal and must get to those who make decisions!

I honestly think once you close it then the AMHR/ASPC mini will eventually die down and shetland type will calm down and once it closes then the AMHR mini itself will become popular. It may take a few years but I think eventually it won't have to come to that once it closes. I do think if we continue down the path we are going something will need to be done or we might as well change the whole registry and call it the American Miniature Shetland Registry. I've only been doing this for 10 years and the change is just dramatic compared to when I first came into showing AMHR.

I also think that we need to have a breeding stock papered division once we close it if not sooner. A proposal was passed that we could take away papers if a mini is measured over at a show 3 times, but heard that the BOD will not be passing it due to legal issues, that they legally cannot take away papers. And I know its already happening those keeping papers on oversize minis and breeding them. Allowing breeding stock papers to those who do go over will just make it legal to do so but they cannot show.

And I think eventually AMHR needs to start implementing DNA.

Also we need a better Standard of Perfection and I'm positive that Standard will be of that of a Classic.

 

[2minis4us]

I am embarressed to say I wasn't getting the "straight miniature" thing until this thread

I thought it meant straight legs and teeth LOL !!!

How dumb is that ??

I am sorry LaVern that I told you to throw in the towel. I feel like an idiot.

 

[disneyhorse]

Personally, I think people are just too hung up on papers.

Maybe the minis should be more like the ASPC and have type divisions. I'm kind of with JMS minis on the whole debate.

But closing the hardshipping, I don't know.... There are already so many ASPC and AMHA registered AMHR minis out there....

 

[HGFarm]

That's ok 2minis4us- written conversation is often misunderstood or interpreted.

If it is an unwritten rule that a full 10 generations of Miniature breeding with no 'new' Shetland breeding infused makes a 'straight' miniature, then I truly believe that at this time, there is NO such thing as a straight Miniature. Certainly having horses on your farm that you currently use for breeding that have Shetland as close as 3 generations away but advertising them as straight Miniatures is not truthful advertising then, isnt it?

I just dont see where there is a difference.... as disney pointed out- if you register all your purebred Shetlands as R, and breed for 10 generations but dont do the ASPC papers, are those horses any less Shetland? No, they all came from Shetland stock. They are still the same horses with the same pedigrees, so I must be missing something here in regards to what the difference is.