"Straight" Miniatures?? I dont understand

[HGFarm]

Hmmmm, the A division showed an increase in revenue of over $15,500. Wonder how much of that was because of the dreaded half price hardshipping rate and how many A sized owners took advantage of the break in fees?

 

[LaVern]

HI, I haven't had time to read everything. I have been so busy pitching. But I was the one that coined the term "Straigtht" Miniature Horses because I thought it sounded better than only. It just means registered as a miniature.

I guess most AMHR people think that their horses are "only's" and thats good enough for them, but I thought mine were so wonderful I that "only" wasn't good enough for them.

It is just a name that I like. That is all it is. Straight miniature - Registered miniature and that all.

 

[vvf]

LaVern...

Ok, I kinda thought it was a marketing thing.... then I wasn't sure if it was meant to be, " No recent Shetlands in the background of an AMHR horse"... I have several AMHR horses and many times I refer to them as "AMHR exclusively" because I also don't really like the term "only"

I am still not quite clear on the "Straight" miniatures... Is it no Shetland in pedigree? or is it "Only AMHR registered/ Straight AMHR registered" (no matter whats in the pedigree)

So lets say I bred my AMHR "only or Straight or exclusive" mare to an AMHR/ASPC stallion.... would the resulting foal be considered "Straight" AMHR registered because it wouldn't be able to have the Shetland papers, because the dam is only/straight AMHR?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Hmmmm, the A division showed an increase in revenue of over $15,500. Wonder how much of that was because of the dreaded half price hardshipping rate and how many A sized owners took advantage of the break in fees?

I don't know if that is just regular registrations or that includes the hardship registrations. It doesn't even say on the sheet how much money was made on hardships.

 

[LaVern]

Yes, it is a marketing thing. I don't think only sounds very good.

 

[vvf]

Yes, it is a marketing thing. I don't think only sounds very good.

Ok, but that still doesn't answer my question... So is "Straight" just/only/exclusively AMHR registered? Meaning, that if my foal is sired by a AMHR/ASPC stallion and out of a Straight AMHR mare.... the foal would be Straight AMHR, right?

And LaVern I truly do understand what you mean by "only AMHR" it is degrading

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

All I'm interested in is a small, refined, well-conformed horse... What difference does it make how it got there? I'm not interested in Shetlands, not because they are "Shetlands", but because I prefer a horse 34" or under... The unique 'smallness' of the Miniature horse is what attracted me in the first place... Horses in between - Shetlands, Welsh or any other of the numerous 'pony' breeds aren't of any interest to me. They can be pretty, but they are not 'unique.' They are a dime a dozen... The smallest of the small, as long as they are well-conformed, are unique. They are the ones hardest to breed and still get an athletic, elegant, refined, very small horse without dwarf characteristics...

Most of our horses have GMB bloodlines... He was a Shetland... His bloodlines have produced some of the nicest, smallest offspring. Shetland isn't a dirty word, it's what most of our Miniature lines sprung from... Much like Quarter Horses sprung from Arabian bloodlines... Yet, a lot of QH people look down their noses at Arabs... It doesn't change QH foundation bloodlines.. it is what it is.

As far as AMHR, I think they focus way too much on the over 34" horse to the detriment of the 34" and under. Go to the AMHR website... Look at all the ads and marketing... It's primarily focused on Shetlands... Look at their logo --- it only shows the Shetland... The AMHR is an afterthought... Even the latest issue of The Journal focuses primarily on Shetlands... I don't know if it's a result of infighting or arrogance or dislike of AMHA under 34" or what, but I'm not very interested in AMHR because of that.

I'm also seeing more and more breeders changing over to the over 34" AMHR/ASPC horse to the detriment of the under 34". I'm disappointed in that... But, the more breeders who switch the smallest of the small horse will just become rarer and more valuable. I became disillusioned with LK Farm when I started seeing them breeding more and more ASPC... I felt betrayed on behalf of Buckeroo. Although, it's moot now.

 

[Minimor]

Personally I fail to see why anything other than "AMHR" is required. I would never advertise a horse as "AMHR only" so likewise see no need to say "straight AMHR". If the horse had more than one registration then I would say AMHR/AMHA or ASPC/AMHR or whatever the case may be. Less confusing that way.

Very often straight AMHR seems to be used by some to mean (or imply) no pony breeding. That is very misleading when someone is advertising a Mini that is sired by an ASPC/AMHR stallion or that is the grandson of a Shetland.

If you are proud of your AMHR breeding program then call it an AMHR breeding program and be done with it. This sort of reminds me of the many times when someone asked what kind of horses I have and I replied proudly "we have Morgans...what kid do you have" and the response was "oh I just have some Quarter Horses". Just? I never, ever thought of saying "we just have Morgans" .

 

[Minimor]

... Even the latest issue of The Journal focuses primarily on Shetlands...

That is because it is the Congress issue...the next one will focus more on AMHR since it is the Nationals issue!

 

[Jean_B]

I've been in this business for a long time - and way back in the dark ages when you could haul a mare out of the pasture and take a Grand home.....if she wasn't registered with AMHA - she was called AMHR-"only". That just chapped my hide. Today, when you can't enter the ring unless you work that horse 6 days a week and she never sees a blade of grass, if she isn't ASPC/AMHR - so many refer to her as AMHR-"only". Again, that really chaps my hide as such a derogatory word. Personally I like the term "exclusively" AMHR because some of the best Blinkety-Blank horses out there are "exclusively" or "straight" or (shudder) "only" AMHR. Do I have an ASPC/AMHR stallion? Yes. But he will be bred to some "exclusively" or "straight" AMHR mares...producing "exclusively" or "straight" AMHR offspring....and I'm proud of it.

 

[dannigirl]

Personally I fail to see why anything other than "AMHR" is required. I would never advertise a horse as "AMHR only" so likewise see no need to say "straight AMHR". If the horse had more than one registration then I would say AMHR/AMHA or ASPC/AMHR or whatever the case may be. Less confusing that way.

Very often straight AMHR seems to be used by some to mean (or imply) no pony breeding. That is very misleading when someone is advertising a Mini that is sired by an ASPC/AMHR stallion or that is the grandson of a Shetland.

If you are proud of your AMHR breeding program then call it an AMHR breeding program and be done with it. This sort of reminds me of the many times when someone asked what kind of horses I have and I replied proudly "we have Morgans...what kid do you have" and the response was "oh I just have some Quarter Horses". Just? I never, ever thought of saying "we just have Morgans" .

I agree with you on this. When I advertise or tell anyone what we have, I usually say "all our horses are AMHR registered. Many ot them are also ASPC registered and some are also AMHA registered" I don't have an "only" in the herd because they are all important to me whether they belong to one registry, two registries or three.

 

[vvf]

I've been in this business for a long time - and way back in the dark ages when you could haul a mare out of the pasture and take a Grand home.....if she wasn't registered with AMHA - she was called AMHR-"only". That just chapped my hide. Today, when you can't enter the ring unless you work that horse 6 days a week and she never sees a blade of grass, if she isn't ASPC/AMHR - so many refer to her as AMHR-"only". Again, that really chaps my hide as such a derogatory word. Personally I like the term "exclusively" AMHR because some of the best Blinkety-Blank horses out there are "exclusively" or "straight" or (shudder) "only" AMHR. Do I have an ASPC/AMHR stallion? Yes. But he will be bred to some "exclusively" or "straight" AMHR mares...producing "exclusively" or "straight" AMHR offspring....and I'm proud of it.

I agree with you on this Jean.... I also have been in this business a long time and very well remember... If she was just AMHR, she was nothing... It was all about AMHA and the bonus was AMHR (and alot of people didn't care if there were AMHR papers at all) .. Through all the years that I have been in this "AMHR Only" just wasn't worth as much in many peoples eyes.... even though there were and still are plenty of Top AMHR stock out there.

I don't know... After all these years, I just want to have what I personally like in my barn.... And I like many of the ASPC/AMHR horses (and they ain't all tall LOL) So I will breed my 2 ASPC/AMHR stallions to some of my Exclusively AMHR mares (that are under 34") and raise a few Exclusive AMHR foals /with Shetland Influence.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I'm also seeing more and more breeders changing over to the over 34" AMHR/ASPC horse to the detriment of the under 34". I'm disappointed in that... But, the more breeders who switch the smallest of the small horse will just become rarer and more valuable. I became disillusioned with LK Farm when I started seeing them breeding more and more ASPC... I felt betrayed on behalf of Buckeroo. Although, it's moot now.

I am thinking some folks are going to the taller horses because there is more and more interest in driving. The larger horses are more fun. Ten years ago when I bought my Jerald cart, there were hardly any carts or harnesses to choose from. Now there are dozens! I think that shows where a growing interest is. If one wants an athletic companion, one might prefer the larger "R only" horse.

 

[HGFarm]

Why even include the word 'only' then? They are AMHR. When I had the bigger varieties, I didnt tell people they were Arabian only or Appaloosa only or POA only. So by adding only to your 'AMHR', you are adding the negative connotation yourself by including that word. Everyone practice in the mirror with a smile on your face- My horses are all AMHR registered! I dont see the need to add one peep about Shetland or AMHA if someone doesnt ask point blank.

And even then, you never need to say the word 'only'. No my horses are not Shetland or A registered, they are AMHR registered of some of the best lines available! There ya go. Thanks for the clarification on what 'straight' means LaVern. I just dont see any need to make any excuse for them or degrade them by a person's own vocabulary.

I have never favored one registry over the other.... and my horses are proudly registered AMHR and AMHA. I made sure I have hardshipped my horses into one or the other. If I had a horse that was AMHR, I hardshipped into A and visa versa until all mine were double registered. I respect and appreciate both registries.

After seeing some of the B sized Minis at Nationals, I can certainly understand why people love them so. The improvement in movement alone is amazing- I saw many I would be proud to own. Alas, since I have to keep my numbers to just a handful, I dont have the luxury of having A's and B's, so have decided to stick with under 34".

 

[Margo_C-T]

I love my 34" and under horses. I started with AMHA and showed there almost exclusively with one exception, an AMHR show in CO some years back. They did fine in the level, packed show ring in driving; however, now that I no longer have an interest in breed showing, wanting to only drive for pleasure with local driving groups, I wanted and got something larger, in the 37-38" range, because i am not a lightweight, and wanted something with enough more 'power to pull' that could handle tougher, sometimes uneven terrain and longer drives. My current gelding is stout and unregistered as a mini(I recently registered him w/ Pinto, but almost wish I hadn't--the cost was high, and the procedure was sloppily handled-I expected more of such a large organization....but that's another story.)

Anyway...I don't regret getting an unregistered animal. I have always been a supporter of registration, for the sake of giving an animal its 'due' as to ancestry,but more important to me in this case was the solid work, by a knowledgeable driver(not a show ring trainer) that had already been put into the horse, along w/ his size(everything I already had, cart and harness-wise, would fit), and he was stout, strong, and has decent groundcovering movement)--and truth is, MANY miniature horses may have 'suspect' pedigrees due to 'shilly-shallying' on the part of a number of 'less than concerned' earlier breeders, to put it kindly. DNAing has been a huge plus in that respect in AMHA, IMO--and I fully agree with those who believe that AMHR should institute DNA testing, immediately if not sooner-it would surely give more veracity to pedigrees from here forward.

I believe that AMHR has ALWAYS been done a disservice by its 'parent', ASPC, and that attitude continues until today, also IMO.

Just what I think after years of observation of the operations of both registries(and AMHA has issues of its own, too, certainly.)

Margo

 

[Jean_B]

Why even include the word 'only' then? They are AMHR.

By George, I think she's got it !!!! (quoting from the musical...can't remember it's name)

 

[Just_Rena]

By George, I think she's got it !!!! (quoting from the musical...can't remember it's name)

My Fair Lady I think

 

[LaVern]

Why even use the word Double then? When people say that they are double they are usually trying to brag about their horse. I say Straight because I like to brag about mine. I just sounds better than "only" to me. But if you want to call yours "only" that is up to you. If you want to just say AMHR good for you. I like Straight, and anyone that likes it too is welcome to use it too.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

I guess I feel "Grand Champion" or HOF is more of bragging rights than bragging that mine is double or triple registered.

I also guess that Championship sash, the statue on the shelf and the winning picture from centerring doesn't mean much for bragging rights.

So how many ads in the next Journal will have pictures of the registration paperwork.

 

[JennyB]

I know that this road has been ridden over A LOT and there is no way to make everyone happy.

I used to hand-write Arabian pedigree's for folks and they would want to know what their horse was, pure Egyptian, Spanish, Polish, Russian, Crabbet. It was very hard because they ALL trace to the desert. So they would say then, "my horse isn't Russian because you say it is desert-bred". I said no, "your horse was born and imported here from Poland and even though your horse traces to Negatiw(who was born is Poland) and Negatiw sire was Naseem(who was born in England) and Naseem's sire was Skowronek who was born in Poland, it still makes him or her pure Polish. Although all Arabian started in the desert. People still have a very hard time with that. Like what make an Arabian Arabian if both parent's came from Egypt?? I found this easy and people either went with it or they didn't. When you had two Arabian horses who were born and imported from Spain, they were straight Spanish. Then when the foals of two imported Spanish horses were imported to America and they had a foal here in America, the foal would be of Straight Spanish bloodlines, but also American bred Spainish Arabian foal. There is a fine line there....

Here in America our Shetland ponies are a mix of ponies from the Shetland islands (who also had Icelandic, Arabian,other island pony breeds) and Welsh and Hackney and who knows what else here. So rightly because they are born on American soil they, then should be pure Shetland, yes because they were born here, but no they are basically a mixed-breed, named and recorded by the American Shetland Pony Club started some 100+ years ago..In 1955 the ASPC closed their books to anymore imported blood for the UK, because it was said, they were too small or course ....in England they have a larger percentage of pure Shetland's anywhere, especially on Shetland islands. Those ponies are "true shetlands"

My husband Mel came up with a good word, "peoplelution (like evolution) ...we as people have changed the evolution of animals of all kinds. The Arabian horse "use" to be a small, petite and compact horse used from showing to a working cow-horse and now it is a larger horse that can't do much except look pretty. we have done this to every animal including, Shetland ponies and Miniature Horses..I remember when I first was getting into the miniature horses back in the early 80's and they were mostly little Quarter ponies, now they are the taller, more sleek looking mini's of today. Now I am not sure many want to go back to the Quarter ponies. They sure wouldn't win in the show rings of today. We have a way of getting our way don't we.

It's going to be a hard deal to call Miniatures a breed, because they are mostly Shetland and they started as a height animal. If the originators would have not put a height limit on them, and just called them something else like....ahh say "Midget Ponies" ...and they had a gene pool of 100 years and nothing as far as the registry for this "new pony breed" was entered un-benounced to anyone. They could could call them a breed, but most breeds of horses and ponie's have been around for hundreds of years. The AMHA started in 1978, they are only 34-years-old and don't have a large enough gene pool in my opinion to close their books.

ASPC registers Shetland ponies who have pedigree's back to the 1800's. A mini who is just registered AMHR/AMHA or just AMHA can't be registered Shetland unless it has a Shetland pedigree back to the 1800's. They are what they are; either a "Miniature Horse" or Straight Miniature Horse" is the same animal, with either no proven pedigree, unknown/unknown or it also has a Shetland pedigree, thus being double or triple registered.

Smith McCoy and Moorman Field were known for starting Midget ponies. McCoy would say, I don't know about genes and genetics<clue here!>, but you can have crack-pot good luck with selling these ponies". He was known to have a walking stick with him when he went looking for small ponies. It had notches carved into the stick at 32", 34" and 36" and he would buy up all the smallest ponies he could find. He had a Midget Pony Sale in 1967 in Virginia, which is where Moorman Field lived too. Mr. Field began raising his Midget Ponies by first raising Shetland ponies. Through breeding the smallest to the smallest to the smallest, they were truly "Midget Ponies" some as small as 20". He did this for over 50 years and a good percentage of Miniature Horses today trace to their stock and we would know better if records would have been kept. In the late 60's Alton Freeman of North Carolina and Rayford, Ely in California came up with the idea of a registry for "midget ponies", and the name changed to, "Miniature Horses". I am sure if there were any records of Mr. McCoys/Fields Shetland bloodlined Midget Ponies, Mr. Freeman, Mr. Ely and some tall Texans had something to do with those un-kept records!

Anyway just like any records of dogs, birds, horses, ponies and miniature horses, the truths are only as far as the paper they are written on. There are and will always be wood-chucks in the wood-pile.

Pictured here is two midget ponies taken in one of the 1955 American Shetland Pony Journals and it says, The above picture far from does justice to this great pair of black, registered, midget mares--32 1/2" and 31 1/2". These two ponies were advertised in a Shetland pony sale in Lafayette, Indiana. One wonders what type of breeding program these mares went into...

We are retiring and I told Mel, if we ever wanted to raise ponies again, I want to just raise as close to what we feel is a Foundation/Classic American Shetland pony and NO AMHR...then we would never need to worry about, oh gee are they going to be over 38" or we wouldn't have people calling us for ASPC/AMHR under 34" horses that can be hardshipped into AMHA even if it brought us more money in...I am tired of the "what is Shetland/Mini question". I love Miniature horses, I love American Shetland ponies, I love the Island Shetland pony and all other equines, large and small.

These are my comments.

Blessings,

Jenny