Stud chains in mouths

[Mini Gaits Farm]

Here is the way I have seen it for years that I have been around and working horses and Ponies now.

PEOPLE screw UP HORSES and PONIES.....If they would take the time and TRAIN and WORK them you will have a Horse that will be grteat to be around for adults as well as for the kids.

Someone posted on here a Stallion would charge as she went in his space.... But then says she would have to use a STUD CHAIN cuz he would eat her up.... Firts how did she catch him if he is so mean and second after catching him they use a chain in mouth or over nose...... I would want to rip someone up after all that toooo.

What I have seen in the small equine is that people do not take the same time TRAINING them as the Large ones. I think it is do to they are smaller and people can push, shove and they think cuz (people) are bigger the little ones must listen and take the punches.

Oh...I guess then "NO" horse is ever just born mean. Is that really what you think? Like some humans are not just pure "mean"...their parents caused it "right"....or in the case of horses...it just had to be the handler or "lack" of training. If you truly believe this, then you just haven't been around the right horse. I am speaking of horses in general...lets just take the big and little thing out of this. As stated in my other post, I choose minis now "because" of their size and disposition. I don't use any type of chain, whip or even twitch unless absolutely necessary (which is rare). I don't have to bully the foals to train them..it just takes time an patience for the most part.

If you are going to quote the story of the mini stallion...then you need to get it right....the woman brought the stallion back here after he was pretty much "ruined" (actually the woman had bruises all over her where he had bitten her)....as a seller...even after a year of her "mishandling" and because I didn't want her to get hurt...I agreed to take him back and try to retrain....to answer your questions....I didn't turn him out in the pasture...I put him in a stall....I entered with a small riding crop and when he pinned his ears and came at me with his mouth wide open I slapped him on the end of the nose with the crop....then I put the chain in his mouth....with no tension....he was biting the chain and chewing on it (once again...diversion of his attention).....BUT...when he went to bite my leg...he quickly learned that "his actions" caused "tension" on the chain and that was uncomfortable to him (bottom line...HE was causing it NOT me). He quit both trying to attack me in the stall and trying to bite me when I was leading him. We worked up rather quickly to needing "NO" chain...I would pat him and reward him with kind words...He left here....to a "new" owner as a gentleman....and he still is to this day....not hurt...not mean.....just trained.

Like I said in an earlier post...some people have been fortunate enough to only encounter "nice" horses and there are others of us that have been around a bit more and have learned that there are all different kinds out there...as there are in humans, dogs and such. When you are in a position that it is going to be either you getting hurt...or you need to use a "training tool"...then the pros turn to the tools as that is why they were invented. Yes...lots and lots of the problems with horses are "created" by humans...you are correct about that....but you can bet that all of them aren't.

I don't look at tactful training as abuse...I look at starvation, neglect and several others things as such...but never good training.

 

[Psultan]

I DID get it right..... The person you sold that pony to did acrew up the pony and was NOT born that way. Then you said you worked him and NOW A GENTALMEN....what do you call that.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

1) Uneducated: of the equipment, horse, and situation.

2) Not a real horsemen to understand and appreciate that all horses are different, have different temperaments, and require different training aids.

Now that is what I call a sweeping statement...and also exceptionally rude!!

I am not uneducated.

I am a real horse person.

I do not use stud chains and I am at present showing a two year old colt who does not always think with his brain!

I do not use a stud chain.

If I had a stallion that needed a lip chain (which I am pretty sure would be illegal here, anyway, and would most certainly not be allowed in the ring) I should geld him straight away.

I am quite capable of understanding the difference between the short term use of a training aid , and the long term use of the same thing, which would be abuse, not control.

I find the silly little chains that are fashionable in the ring today perfectly useless, and completely unnecessary 9 times out of 10, so I do not use them. They actually make control more difficult and they are not up to actually controlling anything, anyway, they break (and I have seen that happen at the most inopportune moments!) and the constant flapping and jerking of them that people do would drive me insane, let alone the horse.

I have handled horses and stallions all my life, some seriously large ones too, and yes, I have on occasion used a stallion chain to get their attention (otherwise they tended at first to overlook the extra bit of humanity flapping around somewhere near their kneecaps) but not as a long term "control" issue.

I would not use a bit on a breeding stallion as, even with the most experienced people and horses, far too much can go wrong, I preferred to rely on respect, training and manners.

I am halter training seven foals at the moment, there are NO situations in which I would ever consider using a chain on a foal, either under or over the nose or in the mouth, there are just no situations in which it is warranted....and, again, I have dealt with some pretty "hairy" foals, small, large and in between, in my time.

 

[HGFarm]

Well said txminipinto- being married to a ranch hand for many years, I was exposed to horses off and on that 'werent very nice'- and I think the worst was bred by my own father in law out of a registered QH mare he had. She was bred to a stallion owned by someone else, and the stallion had a reputation for being a little 'hot'. Actually, my father in law ended up with two foals by this stallion and one was just a fruit cake (jumped off a cliff while being ridden and almost killed himself and my then husband)- he was just suddenly go nuts, like a light switch was turned on- and he was already gelded, LOL He almost killed himself a couple of times just from plain idiocy. One time jerked loose from one of the hands while the horses were being loaded on the trailer to go out and check cattle- a normal routine. Uh oh, there went the light switch and his head went straight in the air and he just ran blindly- into a barbed wire fence, which he tried to jump at the last minute. His top legs caught and it sent him butt over teakettle on the other side. He jumped up like it never happened- head still in the air and ran all the way to the other end of the 80 acre pasture he was in before he even started to come to his senses. Luckily, he was not hurt on the fence.

The other colt was just plain MEAN. He hated people from the start and never did come around. Dont go in his pen- dont turn your back on him- and dont go within reach. He was malicious, evil and lived just to see who he could attack next. He was just not right in the head, period. He ended up at the auction- he was an extremely dangerous horse. He spent some time at our place to be broke to ride and worked with. My husband was EXCELLENT and very patient with bad horses and could do more with a horrible horse than anyone I have ever seen- and this horse just wouldnt come around for any reason. I swear that horse had what I call 'red eyeballs', he was so mean. You can see it in his eyes. (He also had already been gelded- would have just hated to see either of them if they were not!)

Horses are lovely and beautiful animals, but not all are sweet, huggable and kissy faces- some would just as soon rip your face off. Neither of those horses above were ever abused, they were bred and raised by a knowledgable horseman, they had acreage to run in, they were not stuck in stalls to pick up bad habits- they just had, shall we say, 'personality disorders!'.

Depending on personality, some are just not going to come around, no matter how well they are raised or treated with kindness. Thank heavens these are less in population than compared to the rest of the equine world but they are out there and expecting them to tame down like Fury, Flicka or the Black Stallion is just dreaming.

That being said, I have NEVER, no matter what type or size of horse, EVER used a chain on a baby, nor found a need to, and have not used them often in life, even with stallions. Again in the show ring- like spurs, they may be there, but whether they are even used or not is another story.

 

[tagalong]

.If they would take the time and TRAIN and WORK them you will have a Horse that will be grteat to be around for adults as well as for the kids.
Someone posted on here a Stallion would charge as she went in his space.... But then says she would have to use a STUD CHAIN cuz he would eat her up.... Firts how did she catch him if he is so mean and second after catching him they use a chain in mouth or over nose...... I would want to rip someone up after all that toooo.

Some on this thread are quick to make assumptions, ladle out judgement and point fingers - without knowing or caring about the situations and horses involved. Psultan - you have obviously NEVER dealt with a truly aggressive horse - or one with a black heart, as was said earlier. I have. Many of us have.

And what makes people think we did not use time and repetition with them? Or patient handling? Reward, praise - and correction when needed? The suggestions some have made that if you need to use a stud chain you must not be taking enough time or looking for a shortcut is insulting to me. I have never EVER turned to shortcuts... and I have handled people's rank breeding stallions (all sizes) and turned them into gentlemen - or at least a close approximation thereof. Without abuse. WIth patience, repetition and calm, firm and fair handling.

That Standardbred stallion I mentioned definitely had a black heart. He would come running to the gate to greet you with ears pinned. It took me a long while before he would let me put his halter on without trying to whip his nose around and bite me... but we sorted it out carefully over time. He got better - but you could never EVER take your eyes off him or completely trust him.

I DID get it right..... The person you sold that pony to did acrew up the pony and was NOT born that way. Then you said you worked him and NOW A GENTALMEN....what do you call that.

I suspect that colt was born with a somewhat belligerent attitude but his owner had no idea how to deal with it. No doubt it was cute at first (like the way that KWPN stallion's owner thought of his 17 hand monster) but then it escalated as he grew and hormones were added into the mix... and he became rank and nasty. It took a FIRM and FAIR hand to deal with him - and even then he was a handful.

And it was appears that it was not the handling that helped him even after all that time but the GELDING.

What I have seen in the small equine is that people do not take the same time TRAINING them as the Large ones. I think it is do to they are smaller and people can push, shove and they think cuz (people) are bigger the little ones must listen and take the punches.

I think that it works the opposite way most of the time - many minis do not get the same training as big horses because they are "cute" and "fun" and so they may be allowed to get away with stuff that you would never let a 15HH horse do. And that some mini owners have never worked with big horses and think it is okay to be walked all over, or even struck at and threatened. I have seen that many times.

Every horse should have the same manners - whether they are a 17 HH warmblood stallion or a 34" mini.

Is the chain the first thing I go to? Of course not - DUH. But it is there if it is needed. In the right way. With the right hands.

Not as a leading tool - I am still confused about the OP.

ike I said in an earlier post...some people have been fortunate enough to only encounter "nice" horses and there are others of us that have been around a bit more and have learned that there are all different kinds out there...as there are in humans, dogs and such. When you are in a position that it is going to be either you getting hurt or the horse(s) involved getting hurt and/or getting loose...or you need to use a "training tool"...then the pros turn to the tools as that is why they were invented. Yes...lots and lots of the problems with horses are "created" by humans...you are correct about that....but you can bet that all of them aren't.

Well said.

I added the bolded part... because it is safety first.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

I DID get it right..... The person you sold that pony to did acrew up the pony and was NOT born that way. Then you said you worked him and NOW A GENTALMEN....what do you call that.

Training!!!! That's what I call it.

Tagalong...you and I have obviously "been there and done that"...

Sorry Rabbit...but I find nothing at all "rude" about the "facts" that were stated by Tagalong.

 

[tagalong]

Sorry Rabbit...but I find nothing at all "rude" about the "facts" that were stated by Tagalong.

Actually, Carin posted those "facts" - not me. But I agree with them while noting that they may not apply to everyone posting here...

This thread is going much like any thread about twitching has gone... with some upset about how cruel it is and how more training would work and maybe even some kisses on the nose and how they would NEVER use one EVER, and others using it properly as a valuable tool when needed to keep both horses and humans safe....

One of the nastiest PMs I ever received was about the fact that I said I twitched horses when needed....

 

[Windhaven]

This thread has been very interesting to read. All the different responses.

First off there will be come a time to use a stud chain, whether on the nose, under the chin or in the mouth, there will be a time. It all boils down to how it is used.

ANY method can be used to the point of cruelty. It again all depends on the situation.

Any training or handling method that you are not familiar with, you should seek out information, help and guidance on.

The point here is that:

All people are different.

All horses are different.

There are shy, quiet, laid back, energetic, loveable, standoffish, and yes there are MEAN people and horses and it is not all due to how they are handled.

What may work for some people WILL NOT work for others

Training methods that work on some horses, DO NOT WORK ON OTHERS.

Some peoples personality WILL clash with some horses personality.

Some horses will show/perform better for men then women or vice versa.

Some horses need a little bit of a firmer hand and if you are are a softer handed person you might have to use methods that when used don't not require heavy hands, stud shanks, spurs, harsher bits and so on.

Some horses can hate certain people and will always be bad or hard to handle for them.

Some horses are a ONE PERSON horse.

The list goes on.

I have dealt with many types of horses, from pleasure, harness racers, and adopted wild mustangs.

I had a horse, in my earlier years that was a good all around horse. Well one day something in her brain misfired. She started charging people and chasing them when they tried to cross her pen. We had had her for a few years and she NEVER did anything wrong until then. When she got close to you she would rear up and strike out with both front feet, wheel around on a dime and lash out with both hind feet, and then take off. When leading her in the barn she would rear up and knee you in the back. One time I lead her up to the stall and let her go in by herself and she lashed out the both back feet and caught me in the chest. Now I can tell you, while she was at my place she was not abused and this problem came out of nowhere. It ended as quickly as it started. She became almost a one person horse after that. She was mine. I could ride her with out a bridle and just halter and lead and go anywhere I wanted. I sold her a few years later and the lady that bought her could not handle her with the equipment I said to use and they had to go to harsher bits. I am sure due to inexperience but it also could be their personalities clashed.

I had a big yearling paint colt who would challenge me but was very controllable. You just had to be on your toes when working with him. I sent him to a trainer to condition and he said he was nuts and was going to hurt someone. I then had to sell him for different reasons and found out through the years that he was a handful for his new owners to and after breeding some mares they had to geld him. My methods worked with him but obviously many other peoples methods did not or again his personality didn't match theirs.

But my point here is, don't say all horses can be trained with the same methods and that you have never or would never use a certian method, because there might come a time when you come across a horse that just does not play by your rules or methods. Some times you as an owner have to think outside of your box to find what works best for you and your horse.

What every you do, don't every stop learning and think that you know it all and your way is the right way. Because it is then you will go no further and you are done.

Just my personal humble opinion.

 

[minih]

Very good post Windhaven!

 

[txminipinto]

These types of topics always get inflammatory because there are people who agree with it and people who don't for what ever reason for either party. Every time one of these topics comes up, I tell myself not to post but I always do because there is always someone who learns from it.

Nobody is going to change their mind and that is not my intent when I respond to these topics. My intent is to educate those who may not feel comfortable coming out and asking.

I'll throw myself under the bus and admit to using stud chains, twitches, and even sedating horses, when necessary, if it means I can keep control of the situation and create a positive lesson from it. Nothing is gained if I end up hurt and the horse is more stressed after the lesson. The horses in my barn that need stud chains do not object to them and even look for them when we halter them. Its just like bridling a horse to ride. I will say that MOST over time need less and less of the chain as they learn what is expected of them.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

Tagalong...I "love" my horses...and have my entire life...they get 100% of me...that is why I spent my morning at Tractor Supply buying 200 pound 20% mineral tubs that had to be scooted off the back of my pick up (careful not so smash my feet)...then hurt my back rolling them into each run in shelter and barn...but by golly...I got it done. I just ordered six more round bales of hay today and am going to pick up 100 square bales this Sunday. Every horse his trimmed, wormed, vaccinated, teeth floated and has fresh water and care every day..forgot to mention grained twice per day. All of my extra money is spent on them..also lots of my time. Luckily they all appreciate it very much...I don't complain because I love them...but at times it feels like "human abuse"....LOL...all self inflicted of course, because I wouldn't have it any other way.

Now...just for a few points and then I am done with this...I have a "good" friend...a horse person and a darn good one...she doesn't post at all on LilBeginnings..her reason...lots of the people have never really had the experiences that she has had or had to handle things in different ways...and you will just get bashed and bashed and bashed. Well...to her credit...she is very much "correct"....I also reminded her that some folks on here have a lifetime of experience and appreciate reality....but then she reminded me that the one's that maybe have not encountered several experiences "outweigh" the one's that have...maybe she is right....maybe me not working presently causes me to be on here too much and I need to get a life...who knows....but all I can say is...no one will ever totally agree and that is that. I do stand behind my lifetime of experiences with horses and have found that 99% of horses can be managed without lots of things...but I have also met a few of the horses with "black hearts" like you say....great term by the way....they are out there and all I can honestly say is "really...I hope none of these folks encounter them...for their own sake"..I'm not referring to the "unruly" ones...I am referring to the maneaters.

I could start a big bash on the forum and say that I don't show currently because I think certain aspects of it is cruel....OMG...wouldn't they really be on me then. Okay...let me explain that comment to you...so "hopefully" I won't get bashed too bad for it....I like to "feed"...yes I know about founder...not happening here....but I cannot stand the thought of my horses being "hungry"....like the show horses have to be (at times)...is it really abuse....NO...but I can't rest if my horses don't have free choice minerals, fresh water and timothy hay....at "ALL" times.....so you see I can't even get past the "drawing them up" for the showing. LOL I would have to send them off to a trainer and have them just not tell me about that aspect of it. I had a trainer here last year...she looked at my horses and told me "realistically" it would take her three months to get their weight down to the perfect showing condition...but she also reminded me that she would much rather face that problem...than picking one up that it took her five months to "feed up" to condition.

OMG...can't believe I just posted that last paragraph because as we all know and probably will agree on...some folks don't read the entire post and surely someone will pick this up and run with it...before you do....NO...showing is not cruel...I commend all of you that do it.

Tagalong, sorry you recieved a bad PM on a previous post....that's too bad...twitches are also a useful tool in the hands of an experienced person. My point about a stud shank is that sometimes you can just put that in their mouth with no pressure and they chew on it and think of it as a toy, while you are doing something to them and it can even save you from having to use a twitch. I know that "you" know what I mean...it lays loose and they just "play" with it in their mouth...but it works wonders for diverting attention (sometimes). Oh well...enough said...someone sent fly traps to the White House too when the president swatted a fly on live television....but you know what...I kill flies every time I get a chance....possibly that makes me cruel too in the eyes of some.

 

[Psultan]

Some on this thread are quick to make assumptions, ladle out judgement and point fingers - without knowing or caring about the situations and horses involved. Psultan - you have obviously NEVER dealt with a truly aggressive horse - or one with a black heart, as was said earlier. I have. Many of us have.

And what makes people think we did not use time and repetition with them? Or patient handling? Reward, praise - and correction when needed? The suggestions some have made that if you need to use a stud chain you must not be taking enough time or looking for a shortcut is insulting to me. I have never EVER turned to shortcuts... and I have handled people's rank breeding stallions (all sizes) and turned them into gentlemen - or at least a close approximation thereof. Without abuse. WIth patience, repetition and calm, firm and fair handling.

That Standardbred stallion I mentioned definitely had a black heart. He would come running to the gate to greet you with ears pinned. It took me a long while before he would let me put his halter on without trying to whip his nose around and bite me... but we sorted it out carefully over time. He got better - but you could never EVER take your eyes off him or completely trust him.

I suspect that colt was born with a somewhat belligerent attitude but his owner had no idea how to deal with it. No doubt it was cute at first (like the way that KWPN stallion's owner thought of his 17 hand monster) but then it escalated as he grew and hormones were added into the mix... and he became rank and nasty. It took a FIRM and FAIR hand to deal with him - and even then he was a handful.

And it was appears that it was not the handling that helped him even after all that time but the GELDING.

I think that it works the opposite way most of the time - many minis do not get the same training as big horses because they are "cute" and "fun" and so they may be allowed to get away with stuff that you would never let a 15HH horse do. And that some mini owners have never worked with big horses and think it is okay to be walked all over, or even struck at and threatened. I have seen that many times.

Every horse should have the same manners - whether they are a 17 HH warmblood stallion or a 34" mini.

Is the chain the first thing I go to? Of course not - DUH. But it is there if it is needed. In the right way. With the right hands.

Not as a leading tool - I am still confused about the OP.

Well said.

I added the bolded part... because it is safety first.

WOW so easy to say this horse has (A BLACK HEART) if they screw up a horse or the HORSE is smatter then the so called Handler. I have been around unruly horses or (as you call it BLACK HEART) and they all have been screwed up by Handlers. You have even gave examples of owners/Handlers treated a stallion like a CUTE puppy till it GOT smart (YOU DID NOT SAY BLACK HEART) here is what you said.....

I suspect that colt was born with a somewhat belligerent attitude but his owner had no idea how to deal with it. No doubt it was cute at first (like the way that KWPN stallion's owner thought of his 17 hand monster) but then it escalated as he grew and hormones were added into the mix... and he became rank and nasty. It took a FIRM and FAIR hand to deal with him - and even then he was a handful. NO secrete to handling/training a HORSE of any size or sex, Handle them, TRAIN them and WORK them 6 gays a week EVEN AS YOU CALL IT THE ONE WITH BLACK HEARTS. So called (MEAN) horses are so far and few. I will say that many have issues due to owners/hanglers not knowing how to handle them correctly.

 

[tagalong]

WOW so easy to say this horse has (A BLACK HEART) if they screw up a horse or the HORSE is smatter then the so called Handler. I have been around unruly horses or (as you call it BLACK HEART) and they all have been screwed up by Handlers.

And yet some truly have a switch that goes off... and are screwed up without any help from handlers. I only coined Bonnie's phrase - "black heart" for those who are truly dangerous. Not just for the rude and unruly. There is a big difference. If you have never had to deal with one of them, I am happy for you...

YNO secrete to handling/training a HORSE of any size or sex, Handle them, TRAIN them and WORK them 6 gays a week EVEN AS YOU CALL IT THE ONE WITH BLACK HEARTS.

Please stop SHOUTING. It does not come across well. Where did you get the idea that any of the horses we have been discussing were not worked with all the time?

I worked with that Standardbred stallion every day for a year and a half - until the day he had a heart attack and died. I brought him as far as he was willing to go. He was never safe - and you could never let your guard down - but he respected that I was the boss mare. Not by cruelty but by horse sense and horsemanship. I worked with that mini mare every day for the two years she was here... quietly, consistently, without YELLING. She was only able to come so far- and no farther. And when she exploded, she did it big..

So called (MEAN) horses are so far and few. I will say that many have issues due to owners/hanglers not knowing how to handle them correctly.

True - which is what many of us have been saying, Some need firmer direction and if they do not get it, the behaviour escalates. You do not keep the discipline at the same level but adjust as the horse realizes he cannot simply do whatever the heck he wants and you must be respected. Not out of fear - but quiet respect and understanding...

 

[Minimor]

What I always find amusing on these threads is how some come across as feeling superior because they have "handled" these rank stallions that they've had to use stud chains on, and assume that those who don't use [or prefer not to use unless absolutely necessary] chains don't know much or have had little experience at handling a variety of horses, some of which are less than well mannered/well behaved. Perhaps they don't mean to portray that superiority, but it is there.

Someone--don't remember who & it doesn't matter, this computer is too slow for me to bother to go back & look it up now--states that obviously Psultan never handled a certain kind of horse. That person was talking about people making assumptions, but what is "obvious" to that person sounds like more of an assumption to me. Some shouldn't assume, and yet others may assume whatever they like. No double standards are there? I have no idea what kind of horses Psultan has or hasn't handled but I have heard that he has a lot of horse experience. I wouldn't be too quick to assume anything there.

I stated that I haven't handled any rank stallions that NEED a stud chain, and nor do I want to. That does not mean I haven't handled some horses that probably would have had stud chains used on them had some others on this thread been handling them in my place. I too have gotten a stallion back from someone (a trainer--though I use that word loosely--no less). My lovely stallion came back a monster, deemed untrainable by that trainer. I was not pleased the morning I drove out to pick him up--displeasure gives me a heavy foot, I made the good 4 hour drive in 3 hours--walked into the barn, into the stall, haltered my stallion & led him out to the trailer with just halter & rope, no chain...trainer stood there watching with his mouth hanging open. At that point I had no idea what he expected the horse to do but quite obviously he expected something very bad--and I knew he was afraid to lead that horse out of the stall even with a chain on him. I think the horse was so happy to get out of there that he never put a foot wrong. At home I got some idea what that trainer had been expecting--the next time I caught him he charged at me full tilt, mouth open, aiming to grab me. I never hit him, but in 5 seconds or less he realized that he had messed up & wasn't going to succeed in terrorizing me, and in fact what was supposed to hurt me had hurt him instead. He backed off & never, ever tried it again. I never had to use a chain on him after that, never had to carry a whip and never had any problem with him. I trained him to drive that fall and when a friend of that trainer visited and saw this horse going in harness she was amazed. After what the trainer had told her about our horse, she never expected to see us driving him. That trainer would have said that stallion had the blackest heart of any horse he'd known, but in truth that black heart was intelligence....an intelligence level that was greater than that of that trainer.

I don't dispute that there are a few truly mean spirited horses out there, but they are not plentiful.

 

[kaykay]

What is other people's opinions on putting stud chains in horses mouths and yanking on them in general? Isn't it cruel? Can't another form of punishment be used? I'm just wondering why anyone has to do it? I feel really bad for horses that have to endure it because I wouldn't want someone to put cold metal that snaps harshly against my tongue. Just my opinion.

I have never put a chain in the mouth. I have put one under the chin but its usually only needed a few times and they are over it. I am really opposed to chains over the nose of minis as that bone can be broken pretty easily.

If used to train a young un trained horses than if not cruel its just not a good training practice. I was showing someone how to halter break foals the other day and I told them "This is this foals first experience with a halter and lead, make sure its a good experience!

I so agree that horses that have above average intelligence usually get in the most trouble, because they are so smart. Once you figure them out they are the best horses to own, but you have to understand what they are about, and you have to always be thinking ahead of them.

I so agree with Psultan that many times its bad handling not bad horses, especially when it comes to stallion handling. Too many think they are like small dogs and do not train them as a horse should be trained. Gosh I see it over and over and over. Problem is I can bring them here and retrain them but if they go back and they are not handled correctly again they revert right back to old habits.

Over the years here I have seen so many say that disposition doesnt matter as all minis have a good one. So not true. If I had a rank stallion he would never be bred. Or a mare for that matter. Disposition can be inherited or it can be made by bad/poor handling.

I think over the years I have seen it all from the untouched wild horse to the spoiled rotten one. They all come around eventually. Some take just a few days, some take weeks and the really hard ones take months.

 

[Mominis]

"When knowledge ends, violence begins. Xenophon, 400 BC

Jerk should be a noun and not a verb around miniature horses. JMHO.

 

[txminipinto]

As always an interesting topic. FYI, I happen to be currently at veterinary conference and sat in on a lecture over equine aggreession.

The use of a stud chain was addressed in HUMAN aggressive horses and techniques that were referred to in lecture to be acceptable included the chain to be run in the mouth or over the gum as needed.

Causes of aggression were covered including: pain induced, fear induced, and dominate aggressice behaviors. Dominate aggression was linked with human aggression as well as the others.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Psultan]

"When knowledge ends, violence begins.” Xenophon, 400 BC

Jerk should be a noun and not a verb around miniature horses. JMHO.

I AGREE 100%

 

[tagalong]

What I always find amusing on these threads is how some come across as feeling superior because they have "handled" these rank stallions that they've had to use stud chains on, and assume that those who don't use [or prefer not to use unless absolutely necessary] chains don't know much or have had little experience at handling a variety of horses, some of which are less than well mannered/well behaved. Perhaps they don't mean to portray that superiority, but it is there.

Talk about making assumptions...

I (and others) share those tales not out of acting superior but simply sharing experiences. Acting "superior" never even crossed my mind but thank you for assigning motives where none were intended. And no, I have never used a chain unless absolutely necessary - contrary to what you suggest.

That does not mean I haven't handled some horses that probably would have had stud chains used on them had some others on this thread been handling them in my place.

More assumptions... and you know this how?? Wow.

One could almost say that ^ was said with an air of "superiority".

You seem to suggest that some of use them all the time - which is not the case. Gee - I guess I should have used a chain on that tall, leggy, goofy two year old Shetland who reared up, forgot that he knew how to lead, and acted like a jerk (noun) yesterday!!! An opportunity missed!! Sorry to disappoint - we worked through it quietly (on my part) and consistently - and he remembered that he actually could lead, stop, back, turn both ways and go in and out of his stall without plunging through the door like his tail was on fire.... not a chain or a whip in sight.

And if you actually read my last post, maybe you would see that I agree that bad handling contributes to the issues a horse may have - and that quiet, consistent training will fix that in time. I also agreed that the truly "black hearts" were few and far between...

I guess I should know better - after all these years on this forum - than to share past experiences...

Too many think they are like small dogs and do not train them as a horse should be trained. Gosh I see it over and over and over. Problem is I can bring them here and retrain them but if they go back and they are not handled correctly again they revert right back to old habits.

I agree wholeheartedly, kaykay - and said much the same thing earlier. They are not Pomeranians, they are horses!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm still trying to recover from "three gays a week" (I consider that a trifle excessive but hey, whatever floats your boat

)

I do not think there is any need for the amount of defensiveness, nor the apparent aggression being bandied about on this thread, the OP queried the use of stud chains in the mouth, I am not even sure if that would be legal here, but there you go, it most certainly would not be considered acceptable.

I have only ever experienced a truly "black hearted" horse once in my life, I am very glad to say, but I can tell you, Psultan, it is terrifying.

I can assure you that, when faced with 16.2hh of very aggressive Irish Draught mare, the first thing that you ask is not "Oh, what made her that way?" the first thing you ask is "How the HECK do I get out of here alive????"

Nor did we stop to consider why she was doing it, nor did we try a stud chain on her top lip. We had her shot.

A bit extreme? Possibly but we did not wish to hear, at some later date, that whoever had bought her form us, thinking, no doubt, that they would be bound to succeed where these two soft and tiny women had failed, was found dead with their heads kicked in. We did what we considered to be the responsible thing, the only responsible thing, to do.

I am afraid this tends to be my approach to most real aggression in a horse. If it is a stallion, first line of defence is to geld. If this does not clear it up and the horse is not responding to firm but consistent training then I do think it should be put down.

The world has plenty of very well conformed, very well behaved horses in it already, and putting an animal down, quietly and in your own field, does not actually hurt it in any way, nor does it frighten it.

Both of which can easily happen to the animal that you find you cannot, in fact, handle, and so pass on to someone else.