Stud fee money given now mare owner backing out

[yankee_minis]

Okay, let's get this out of the way first and foremost: no, there is no contract regarding this breeding.

So I deserve all the pokes and stupid comments out there.

: :stupid:

Okay, so now help me on what to do.

Buyer bought a mare and said he wanted to pay NOW for a breeding back to my stallion. I took the money reluctantly because I don't really want to deal with outside mares and their owners. But this was a mare I knew and the buyer lives 15 minutes away.

My horse was out in training and I brought him back for 2-3 weeks for breeding. Phoned the mare's owner and said, he's here but going back for training, bring her over. No other contact from them again. The day after I returned him to the trainer they called and said they wanted to bring her over. I said sorry, he's gone, how about in 3 weeks when he's back from Nationals? They agreed.

Today I get a call that says they don't want to breed her and want their money back.

I do not have the money to repay them and even if I did, I'm wondering how much I should return.

I am willing to offer a farm credit or breed her at a later date.

How do I handle this?

 

[Marty]

I don't see any harm done.

I'd give them their money back.

 

[Jill]

I'm not sure what I'd do. Probably refund the money just to be out of it and out of any arguments.

If you wanted to stand him to outside mares in the future (and I totally understand not wanting to deal with the issues -- I don't either!), maybe have the refund options be only switching to an approved mare, and that you only have to "deal" with the owner of the mare when you make the contract... if they sell the mare to someone else prior to breeding, at your option, they may be out of luck. It is a whole can of worms dealing with "strange" mare owners!

 

[backwoodsnanny]

Tracy

If I understand right you dont have the money to give back to them so you should tell them the truth that you dont have the money to give them right now. You can offer them the farm credit or future breeding but if you dont have the money to give them just tell the truth and work from there. I can understand both sides. It is late to breed but on the other hand you did tell them when you could do it and they ignored it . I do think you should do something for them if you said you would breed the mare either work out a way to give them back the fee or find a way to keep them happy in some other way.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Since the stallion was only going to be around for a short time, I as a mare owner would have felt uncomfortable about my mare getting bred. If he was going to be there for what might have been only 2 weeks she may not have come in at that frame of time. I wouldn't sweat it, give the money back and keep relations good and just not take any more deposits for breeding. I always like to see my customers get something for their money and sounds like you aren't too crazy about doing outside breedings anyway. We all learn from experiences.

: Mary

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

It is a tough one but since your stallion was not available alot due to being in training(not sure if you discussed that at the time this arrangement was made) it could have very well been they were waiting for her to come in to bring her to you or a million things

Bottom line is I think I would tell them I dont have the money right now however I can make payments or give you a farm credit which ever you prefer.

They should get the money back IMO at this point however... one good reason as you know now even if a one time thing to have a iron clad contract

I sold a mare and they wanted her bred to my stallion.. I gave them a price and told them that if she settled they could send me the money after a US seemed to avoid all those problems and what ifs..

After that it was back to my policy of not standing out. I have had a few want to breed to my Michigan colt but for me it is just easier all the way around to not take on that responsibility

 

[ClickMini]

In the stallion contract I am developing there is a non-refundable booking fee written in. This is specifically for me to offset having to deal with disruptions in training, etc. This is kept regardless of mare settling, etc. I will collect the remainder of the stud fee once the mare is ultrasounded in foal. Then if the mare re-absorbs, aborts, or has an attended birth where the foal fails to stand and nurse (and all other requirements of the contract are maintained, including all pre-foaling mare shots given by a veterinarian), the mare owner has a return guaranteed the following year upon paying the booking fee only.

My requirements for a mare owner will be very steep, but I feel it necessary to protect the horses on my property and my own interests. I won't ask for anything that a mare owner shouldn't do as a responsible breeder anyway.

 

[Katiean]

I would give them the option to breed next year or refund the money. I also would NEVER take a stud fee with out a contract. I bred Yorkies for years and I had contracts even with my sister. When money changes hands get it in writing.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Since you have no contract, you should refund the money. I'm sorry you don't have it, sorry to say that's your fault, spending money you hadn't fully earned yet.

It states explicitely in my contract (I also won't even consider a mare without a contract) that my booking fee is due before consideration, and the stud fees are due before breeding, and are nonrefundable.

 

[Relic]

l found over the years it pays to have a seperate account just for horses and not to use that money till services have been rendered if for stud fees or a money back on a height..if l get paid up front l return it the same way..

 

[HGFarm]

I too would probably find some way to refund the money. I would explain to them you dont have it all up front right now and would payments be ok, and let them know that was a limited time offer since you do not normally breed to outside mares, so it will not be a repeat offer at a later time. That will just end it and keep it on a good note.

When we had the big horses, most farms have a contract with a 'booking fee', that is part of the stud fee and non refundable to make sure they are not overbreeding the stallion and who all is coming to breed that year. The remainder was usually due when the mare was vet checked and picked up to go home. It also advised what the mare care was, and who was responsible for any vet bills, health care and farrier work incurred, etc.... while the mare was there.

This is one of the reasons I dont breed to outside mares- just dont want the issues and hassle any more.

:

 

[Minimor]

Two things to remember in future:

1 - always have a contract for breeding outside mares, even if it's one you've just sold

2 - never spend the money you receive until you are fully entitled to it

My pet peeve is stallion owners who don't make their stallion available to honor breedings they have taken payment for. I've been on the end of that deal, only in this case the stallion and/or stallion owner was unavailable time after time after time, and of course every time an excuse was offered, the stallion owner said "anytime after this week it will work for me" but then next week was the same old runaround. Missed out on one entire season that way. The next year I said forget it, we won't bother breeding. Even then, I didn't ask for my stud fee back. There was little point--stallion owner would have just went back to the same old runaround, or would have said to just bring the mares down & turn them out on pasture with the stallion & his band of mares. There was no way that we were taking our mares there to be turned out with the herd--for several reasons--and in any case pasture breeding wasn't part of the original agreement. Besides which, having seen more of the offspring of the particular stallions, we were no longer interested in having any foals by them. In any case we didn't ask for a refund--wouldn't have got it anyway--and it wasn't worth fighting over. (And in case anyone wonders, no, it wasn't a small amount either--in fact it was actually 2 stud fees & a breed back on a LFG where the foal had died at birth, so we were to have gotten 3 mares bred. We were out a substantial amount of money!)

Now in your case I wouldn't say that your stallion has been exactly unavailable. You did contact the mare owner to say that the stallion was available for a certain period of time. IMO it would have been nice if the mare owner had replied & let you know if the mare wasn't in heat yet and when they thought she might be ready to breed, rather than ignoring you until the day the mare was ready. I assume that at the time the mare owner paid for the breeding you did explain that the stallion would be away for training and showing for a certain amount of time--as long as the mare owner knew that then he can't complain too much about the stallion not being available.

When we stood a Morgan at stud our contract was for LFG over a 3 year term. Stud fee was non-refundable, but same mare or substitute mare could be bred back. Breeding was non-transferable, meaning if the mare was sold, the new owner could not bring her for breeding. The only way any money was refundable was if our stallion would have died or become unfit for breeding, and even then only a percentage was refundable--and that percentage was specified in the contract.

In your case the mare owner obviously figures it's worth a try to get his money back. It's hard to say if he really expects it, or if you say no he may shrug his shoulders & say well, I didn't expect to get it but thought I'd ask.... And of course he may be one that will bad mouth you far & wide if you do refuse to refund the money.

How long ago was it paid? Just wondering if the mare owner paid it in the spring with the expectation of breeding in June or July? Or if he just recently bought the mare & was planning on a late August/early September breeding? If the latter then having to wait until after Nationals isn't really making it that much later, & isn't really grounds for backing out of deal--money shouldn't have to be refunded. If the former, and he's been getting put off all summer, then yes, I can see why he wants to scrap the plan of breeding to your stallion--money should be refunded. JMHO

 

[Miniv]

Yep, rough lesson learned.........In this "business" there's always something new to be learned.

Number one lesson -- a contract.

Anyway, I also think you should just get out by offering them either a farm credit or pay them back in payments. Explain to them that's the only way they can get paid back at this point. Give them the option and then put THAT in writing and have both parties sign.

By doing it that way, at least they know you are trying to be honest and fair.

MA

 

[yankee_minis]

The mare was sold at the end of July and at the time the stallion was out for training. I brought him back specifically to breed to that mare and others. He was here for 2-3 weeks in August then went back. There hasn't been that much time passed.

They were going to give her a shot to go into heat, so her cycle wouldn't have been a problem with timing.

I haven't spoken with them yet. My husband did. So I don't know exactly what they want.

We boarded two mares and a foal last year to breed to one of my buys in exchange for a breeding to their jack, that they also brought to our place. Unfortunately the other person left them with us for over a month with no hay or grain or mare care. That wasn't good either.

This guy wanted so much to give me that money for the breeding even after I said I don't usually do it. And he didn't want to wait until it was actually completed. It never ocurred to me he might back out. They were all gung ho about a baby and complained about the other mare they had that turned up open.

sigh

Not a biggie I guess. It will work out somehow.

 

[CLC Stables]

Taking from your statement about her cycle not being an issue with timing.

That is a common MISNOMER in the horse world. Lutalyse (prostaglandin shot she would have gotten) doesn't always work like clock work to get that mare to come into heat in the "3" day time period. It will only ASSIST to short cycle a mare IF she is at the correct stage of her cycle.

I agree offer the money back, GET A CONTRACT

 

[yankee_minis]

Geesh, people... I thought by putting in the little I'm with stupid & poke smiley :stupid:

: that you'd see that I was already poking myself and you didn't have to do it.

I felt I had been accommodating to this person and now they want to cancel the deal. Just doesn't feel right to me.

We should have a little smiley wearing a dunce cap because that's how I feel right now.

But if it helps just one person reading this thread to "get it in writing," then I guess all your chastising is worth it.

 

[backwoodsnanny]

Tracy

I think most of us have learned a valuable lesson from your bad experience especially those of us who live in a place where a mans word is still valued. Now I know why I have never studded Sonny out even though I have been asked many times.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Now don't feel so bad about it all...you asked and opinions were given. There isn't one person here, that is honest, that wouldn't have to admit to making a mistake. We learn from our experiences, in many instances. There are many things we learn about with our horse experiences and I am sure we will go on learning. Hugs now and it is still up to you to decide what you want to do....these were only other peoples thoughts on the matter.

: Mary

Geesh, people... I thought by putting in the little I'm with stupid & poke smiley :stupid:

: that you'd see that I was already poking myself and you didn't have to do it.

I felt I had been accommodating to this person and now they want to cancel the deal. Just doesn't feel right to me.

We should have a little smiley wearing a dunce cap because that's how I feel right now.

But if it helps just one person reading this thread to "get it in writing," then I guess all your chastising is worth it.

 

[Katiean]

I have had such a bad time with breedings in dogs that I say get it in writing. Even with family. I was known to modify the contract when a female failed to have a litter (it didn't cost me a thing for Bubba to cover the female again). It was in my contract that no stud fees were refunded. However, I always tried my hardest to get the person a litter. And a litter ment more than 1 pup.

 

[Lauralee]

Yep this happened to me except I paid BIG BUCKS to breed my mare to a well-advertised reserve national champion from the BOND bloodline.

Mare had a dwarf foal......stud owner did not make good on my stud fee nor a substitute mare/stallion pairing for breeding. I found others who had similar experiences as mine.

Lesson learned and I tell EVERYONE I MEET about this breeder's ethics.

Tracy, you would be better off to have your client thankful for you refunding their money than to have them telling all their friends how unhappy they are. I say refund the money since there simply was not enough opportunity to actually get the mare settled.