Thank *** I'm a woman in America (or Canada!)

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ozymandias

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Where we can jump in our turbo charged street racers and zoom on down to the 7/11 for a soda anytime we like. Or saddle up our best friends - with our best friends - and ride off into the sunset.

Cherish the words "LAND OF THE FREE" and defend it with all your might
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http://freethinker.co.uk/2012/09/28/no-males-no-mecca-for-you-ladies/
 
This is Sharia law, and it IS being practiced in the US. Thanks in part to the Obama administration lifting bans on people like Tyrique Ramadan, who can now come into our country and encourage this practice in our muslim populations. Newt Gingrich was the person in Washington who initiated a campaign AGAINST Sharia Law in the US.
 
The troubling thing with freedom of religion is that -- gasp!! -- people are free to practice religions that we may disagree with.

Let's not forget that many loyal US citizens are also devout Muslims and are neither misogynistic nor vulnerable to brain-washing by radicals of any sort. (Considering how many people believe Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and their ilk, I only wish we could say the same of the RR.)

Sharia law, heinous as it is, did not introduce oppression of women to our country. Scumbag a.s.s.hats -- both male and female, many of them pious Christians -- did that without any help from those pesky Democrats. Many popular religions espouse (no pun intended) oppression of women's rights, yet to speak out against THEM is to be intolerant.

Some would so love to paint President Obama as the devil's spawn that they'll do anything to link him to anything the naive and the easily led find terrifying (socialism, communism, Sharia law, killing grandma...).

I hear that he ate his children -- notice you haven't seen them recently?

.
 
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<<<<The troubling thing with freedom of religion is that -- gasp!! -- people are free to practice religions that we may disagree with.

Let's not forget that many loyal US citizens are also devout Muslims and are neither misogynistic nor vulnerable to brain-washing by radicals of any sort. (Considering how many people believe Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and their ilk, I only wish we could say the same of the RR.)

Sharia law, heinous as it is, did not introduce oppression of women to our country. Scumbag a.s.s.hats -- both male and female, many of them pious Christians -- did that without any help from those pesky Democrats. Many popular religions espouse (no pun intended) oppression of women's rights, yet to speak out against THEM is to be intolerant.

Some would so love to paint President Obama as the devil's spawn that they'll do anything to link him to anything the naive and the easily led find terrifying (socialism, communism, Sharia law, killing grandma...).

I hear that he ate his children -- notice you haven't seen them recently?>>>>

Gosh Susanne,

It sounds like you are having a really bad day.

I do not consider myself to be naive or easily led. Nor do I appreciate the insinuation. My point is that Sharia law is being practiced in the US, and people need to be aware of it. As Ozy says, this is a free country and, as women, we really should appreciate the fact that it is. With a very few exceptions, one of which is Sharia law practiced by some of our Muslim populations, our country is one of the best in the world to be a woman. And we should "defend it with all your might", as Ozy said. And this includes petitioning your state to enact state laws prohibiting Sharia law. Though we have religious freedom in this country, secular law overrides it, and secular law protects women from getting treated like property. I stated a fact about Tyrique Ramadan, who is extremely persuasive in his arguments for the practice of Sharia law, as well as a fact about Newt Gingrich, and you respond with rhetoric like "devil's spawn" and insults. I prefer to stick to facts.

Also, I am a Christian, I am a woman, and I have never, not once, in my life felt like I was oppressed. And I have no problem whatsoever speaking out if I see situations where women truly are oppressed.

Wendy
 
Actually, Wendy, I've had a wonderful day. Our weather is glorious, our animals are all happy and healthy, as are we, and life is good. Thank you for caring.

I'm happy that your Christian sect is not oppressive to women, and I am sorry you misunderstood my post and therefore my point. What I said was that oppression of women was not introduced by Muslims or Sharia law. Violence against and oppression of women have been perpetrated by all manner of people, both male and female, including many Christians (I should probably have included Jews, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics and so on...). Sadly, oppression, violence and hatred know no religious (or national) bounds.

My friends and family include Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, atheists and agnostics (no Hindus, interestingly enough), so I tend to get a bit defensive when I hear any of them being slighted. My grandfather was LDS, my youngest brother is a conservative Baptist, and my oldest brother worships the dollar sign. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was previously a member of a Christian big band (as their token heathen), and I would in no way have associated with them if I didn't believe them to be truly good people. (I was also the token straight broad in a gay big band -- musicians seem to accept all sorts, even me.)

BTW, I was not implying that YOU are naive or easily led; my statement referred to those who would read inflammatory comments (from whatever source) without critical thought and without researching their veracity. This is why I am bothered by suggestions that all Muslims are easily drawn into Sharia law or that President Obama is allowing Sharia law into the country.

With that, I'll just say that I hope you have enjoyed your day as much as I've enjoyed mine.
 
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Actually, Wendy, I've had a wonderful day. Our weather is glorious, our animals are all happy and healthy, as are we, and life is good. Thank you for caring.

I'm happy that your Christian sect is not oppressive to women, and I am sorry you misunderstood my post and therefore my point. What I said was that oppression of women was not introduced by Muslims or Sharia law. Violence against and oppression of women have been perpetrated by all manner of people, both male and female, including many Christians (I should probably have included Jews, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics and so on...). Sadly, oppression, violence and hatred know no religious (or national) bounds.

My friends and family include Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, atheists and agnostics (no Hindus, interestingly enough), so I tend to get a bit defensive when I hear any of them being slighted. My grandfather was LDS, my youngest brother is a conservative Baptist, and my oldest brother worships the dollar sign. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was previously a member of a Christian big band (as their token heathen), and I would in no way have associated with them if I didn't believe them to be truly good people. (I was also the token straight broad in a gay big band -- musicians seem to accept all sorts, even me.)

BTW, I was not implying that YOU are naive or easily led; my statement referred to those who would read inflammatory comments (from whatever source) without critical thought and without researching their veracity. This is why I am bothered by suggestions that all Muslims are easily drawn into Sharia law or that President Obama is allowing Sharia law into the country.

With that, I'll just say that I hope you have enjoyed your day as much as I've enjoyed mine.
Suzanne, I agree with you 100%. I wonder if other religious groups that have been tolerated in your country for some of their practices if people should be petitioning their state to put a stop to various behaviours that have been around long time before in the U.S. Why take such a stand on this particular group and not practices of others? I don't get it, or maybe I do. You either truly believe in "freedom for all" or you don't. Blaming Obama, well lets saying nothing surprises me anymore.
 
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And what about the abuse of non-muslim women? Where is the mention of this? Do you think that all muslim women are abused? or are we spoon-fed by media and only shown that part. It is not "muslim" that is the cause of abuse, it is "fanatical muslim men:" just like it is "fanatical and crazy men" from all colors and all faiths, who use all kinds of excuses for the horrid things they do to women in abuse cases.

The interesting thing is I read an article last night who said that in many cases it is the women of a village that pressure the other women into wearing the burka, NOT the men. The women will go around and say she is "dirty" if she doesn't and so the younger women feel that they must conform to their "sisters" wishes.

Because we weren't brought up in their culture or live their culture on a daily life we are quick to judge them all which is so very unfair. Don't just believe what you see in the media, challenge yourselves to find out both sides of the coin here and perhaps our society won't be so gullible in our one-sided thinking. You see something in the news and you take it that it must be like that for all, or that all muslim men are abusive to their wives or that the majority are. If that is what you believe then I am sorry to say you have been brainwashed.
 
Different meanings

Today, the hijab -- or "the veil," as it's referred to in the Western media -- has taken on a multitude of meanings, perhaps more than it was ever meant to carry.

While some Muslims consider it an expression of modesty and piety, others say such emphasis on the scarf as a religious symbol is overstated. And while some Americans recoil from the sight of any form of Muslim dress as a symbol of terrorism and aggression toward non-Muslims, many feminists, mostly American but some Muslim, invest the hijab with another kind of significance -- oppression of Muslim women.

That last assumption has been fed by television images of women in Afghanistan, shrouded in the burqa, being beaten for showing an ankle or part of their face. And while Muslim men also are required to dress modestly -- with a turban or a cap, and flowing garments -- women's dress is seen as symbol of the greater restrictions they labor under in some Muslim countries.

"They are wrong," said Izdihar El-Hilal, a native of Syria who has lived in the Pittsburgh area for 27 years and is an American citizen. "This is my choice. I am not oppressed."

Aside from the diaphanous white scarf around her face, El-Hilal looked very much like any other woman shopping for her grandchild at Monroeville Mall. Her attire, which included a blue wool jacket over a long dress, attracted no stares, no double-takes from other shoppers.

Nonetheless, she declined to speak on the record about herself, citing her wish for privacy.

She was not alone. A number of women expressed reluctance to speak to a reporter for this article, citing fears of "trouble," or insisted that it be without attribution.

It is estimated that about 10 percent of the female Muslim population nationally wears the hijab, although those numbers may be growing as more people convert to Islam. It's not clear how many women do so among the 10,000 Muslims living in the Pittsburgh region. But nearly all of those interviewed stressed that wearing the veil was a personal decision, a far cry from the coercion experienced by women in Afghanistan.

In fact, the Quran, the Muslim holy book, doesn't require that Muslim women cover their heads, although it asks both men and women to "lower their gaze and guard their modesty."

"The idea behind that was that the sexuality of one didn't influence the other, so that men and women would treat each other like equal human beings," said Zieba Shorish-Shamley, an anthropologist and Muslim feminist who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Women's Alliance for Peace and Human Rights in Afghanistan.

Because the Quran's injunctions are open to many interpretations, Islamic laws in different countries vary widely in what they define as modest dress -- from the extremes of Afghanistan to the sartorial freedoms of Jordan, the United Arab Emirates and even Iraq.

Even in countries where the hijab is not required, today more younger Muslim women are covering their heads.

"When I was in Pakistan recently, for the first time in some years, it seemed like at least half of all the girls were wearing it," said a young woman from Pakistan who is studying for an advanced degree at a local college and asked not to be identified by name.

While Pakistan has experienced a strong revival of fundamentalism in recent years, the renewed practice of covering one's head may be as much an expression of education as a return to old traditions, Middle East historian Christina Michelmore says.

"I think that for many young women, it's a symbol they are attached to their culture, they're proud of their religion, and they see it as part of their identity as separate from this globalized McDonald's world," said Michelmore, associate professor of history at Chatham College.

Expression or oppression?

Indeed, many Muslim women consider the head scarf a form of feminist expression, because it forces people to judge them by their character rather than their looks.

"I look at wearing a hijab as liberating," said Jennifer Fadel, an American who converted to Islam 10 years ago and who is married to a native of Lebanon. "It protects my dignity. I don't have to worry about looking good and doing my hair all up just to impress others."

While the hijab is usually worn after puberty, Siddique didn't cover her head until her junior year at Brown University, when, she said, "I saw some really dynamic, brilliant Muslim women I respected covering their heads, and I realized it's possible to be liberated but modest, too."

Still, some American feminists have difficulty with this concept.

"I know many Muslim women who are fighting for equal rights who will not wear the hijab, and some Muslim feminists who do, and it's their choice. But it's submission, let's be real," said Eleanor Smeal, president of The Feminist Majority Foundation. "And when it becomes forced, as it is in some places, you know you have an anti-women's regime in there,"

Since 1997, Smeal's group has waged a public relations campaign against the forced wearing of burqa, a head-to-toe shroud, along with what it calls "gender apartheid" in Afghanistan.

"The scarf is not the problem that the burqa is, let's put it that way," Smeal said. Still, feminist movements in Muslim societies have always "fought like heck to get rid of the veil," she said. The Shah of Iran banned the veil, and in Afghanistan, the king's wife took off her veil, an act "which in Muslim cultures has always been seen as a symbol of progressive feminism," Smeal said.

Michelmore said such acts are as much an embrace of modernism as feminism. In Turkey in 1922, the nation's founder, Kemal Ataturk, supported women removing their veils, while also mandating that all men wear hats with brims, a decree designed to emphasize Turkey's status as a modern nation.

And what might seem like gender discrimination to an American feminist may not feel that way to a Muslim, Michelmore said.

"For many Americans, cultural restraints on individual behavior automatically look like oppression," she said. "I think that's a very American look at the world. For lots of cultures, communal standards aren't seen as inhibiting individual freedoms. They're seen as part of belonging to a group whose cultures and values are important to those individuals."

Educating America

In its purest form, scholars stress, Islam is the most progressive of all religions when it comes to women's rights. The Quran permits them to own their own businesses, to inherit wealth, choose marriage partners or divorce them, although those freedoms have been severely curtailed in some countries, depending on local customs and traditions.

The burqa is not a religious invention, but rather one with roots in the pre-Islamic cultures of Persia and India. In fact, scholars note that middle-class Muslim women in the seventh century began covering their heads because it was the tradition of the Christian Byzantines, who wanted to distinguish themselves from the masses.

The Quran's direction to women to "draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty" except to the male members of their families was a protective response to the slave trade that existed before Islam, rather than a patriarchal one.

"Before Islam, women were bought and sold and used as sex objects," Shorish-Shamley said. "Female infant children were buried alive. This was designed to ensure that women would not be molested, but protected."

In fact, for every nation like Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, where women must cover themselves from head to foot, are prohibited from driving and may not move about the country unaccompanied by men, there are Muslim countries such as Turkey, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Indonesia that have elected women as their leaders.

"This is not about men and women doing the same things, it's about a culture that values women," said Aaisha Haque, 22, a fourth-year medical student who is interning at Allegheny General Hospital and who grew up in Louisiana, the daughter of parents born in India.

"The notion that by choosing to cover her hair a woman is somehow oppressed is as ludicrous as to say that a woman in a long-sleeved shirt is oppressed in comparison to those in a tank top," said Haque. Muslim women fighting for equal rights are fighting oppressive governments, not Islam itself, she said.

"My mother is one the staunchest advocates for women's rights I know, an educated woman who chose to cover on her own. And when I was a little girl, she gave me a book about women in Islam, and that's how I found that some of the greatest writers, historians and scientists were women.

"I'm glad I cover, even now when it causes people to pass severe judgments on me, because when I am in the hospital, people realize that one can be dressed this way, be American and be free, and that not all Muslim women are oppressed or controlled by men."

Some find the American preoccupation with their headwear irritating, even when it's well-intentioned. They assume women in veils can't speak English, or that they don't like having their heads covered.

"People are always asking me if I'm hot," said Parunchana Pacharn, 26, a student at Carnegie Mellon University. "I go to the bank, and they say, aren't you hot?"

For foreign Muslim students living in Pittsburgh, the frustrations run deeper. Two of them, one from the West Bank, another from Pakistan, said they had felt a sense of alienation, of apartness from their peers at school, because of how they dress, while in their home countries, one torn by war, the other by a rise in militant movements, wearing the hijab confers a sense of belonging.

"I am the only one in my family who covers her head, but my family is happy that I am doing it," said the Pakistani woman. "In my mom's generation, in my grandmother's generation, they didn't do that. My grandmother had no education at all. But my generation is trying to learn more about what our religion is saying, and my family is pleased. They see it as a source of dignity."

There is a recognition, though, that this embrace of tradition can backfire.

In Iran, many of the women who insisted on covering their heads in protest of the Shah of Iran's regime grew to regret their decision under the Ayatollah Khomeini's rule, which required that women cover themselves.

And during her college years in the mid-1990s, when Siddique saw increasing numbers of her female friends at Brown, Harvard and Smith, most of them from elite backgrounds, covering their heads, she asked why.

"They'd say, America is one of the best places on Earth to follow our religion, because we are free. And I feel that way, too.

"The U.S. is still one of the only parts of the world where I may practice my religion, wear what I choose and be respected for my choices. To me, that is real empowerment."
 
It is not "muslim" that is the cause of abuse, it is "fanatical muslim men:" just like it is "fanatical and crazy men" from all colors and all faiths, who use all kinds of excuses for the horrid things they do to women in abuse cases.
Thank you, Danielle!! This is exactly my point, only you said it much more succinctly.

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And what about the abuse of non-muslim women? Where is the mention of this? Do you think that all muslim women are abused? or are we spoon-fed by media and only shown that part. It is not "muslim" that is the cause of abuse, it is "fanatical muslim men:" just like it is "fanatical and crazy men" from all colors and all faiths, who use all kinds of excuses for the horrid things they do to women in abuse cases.
Danielle, I think you're looking for things that aren't there. No one is saying that women in all walks of life can experience horrible abuse. We're talking about Muslims here because that's what the original topic was about. I'm as equally upset when some drunk wife beater puts his miss's in the hospital...the only difference is maybe he isn't adhering to some bronze age book that TELLS HIM to do it. The Christian bible is no different....it says women cannot teach men...can't ask questions in church, have to be subservient to their husbands etc....that's equally as disgusting - only good thing is most Christian women - even those claiming to be strong Christians - throw that part of the baby out with the dishwater it belongs with
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No one is saying it's ALL muslim men...that would be TOTALLY absurd! I'm sorry but I just don't understand your excuses for something that's so horrific whether it's an everyday happening or not. IMO, just ONE woman mutilated under the name of religion in this day and age is unacceptable.
 
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The difference Danielle is that in the US/Canada it is illegal to treat woman in a way that is harmful...(doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but it's not tolerated) in countries where sharia law is practiced it is not illegal and it's encouraged. There is a town here in MI called Dearborn that is a high population of Muslims, they were recently protesting to override the US law on freedom of speech with sharia law....what could happen next?
 
The difference Danielle is that in the US/Canada it is illegal to treat woman in a way that is harmful...(doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but it's not tolerated) in countries where sharia law is practiced it is not illegal and it's encouraged. There is a town here in MI called Dearborn that is a high population of Muslims, they were recently protesting to override the US law on freedom of speech with sharia law....what could happen next?
Thank you !!! Well said.
 
Lol Ozy, we actually agree on something....other than our love of mini horses!
 
I think both of you need to do some research about sharia law and your concerns and propogating fear that this could happen in the US. I am not a resident of the US and I was able to find quite a few sites online and articles from lawyers, lawmakers and even judges that state it is IMPOSSIBLE because of your Constitution that this would ever happen or be possible. Do your own search and you will see that your fears are not founded in facts. They are saying that the anti-Muslim sentiment is growing in the US at a phenomenal rate. I seem to not have to go far to see that article is proving to be true. What a sad world we live in.
 
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I think both of you need to do some research about sharia law and your concerns and propogating fear that this could happen in the US. I am not a resident of the US and I was able to find quite a few sites online and articles from lawyers, lawmakers and even judges that state it is IMPOSSIBLE because of your Constitution that this would ever happen or be possible. Do your own search and you will see that your fears are not founded in facts. They are saying that the anti-Muslim sentiment is growing in the US at a phenomenal rate. I seem to not have to go far to see that article is proving to be true. What a sad world we live in.
Danielle,

I don't think you read what's written...I think you read what you want to see
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My entire first post was about being GRATEFUL that I live in America where this way of life doesn't exist. As for the anti-muslim sentiment....I personally have nothing against people from the middle east or anywhere else for that matter....I have a HUGE issue with their religion - but I certainly don't just pick on them (right Christians lol)
 
Lol Ozy, we actually agree on something....other than our love of mini horses!
Hey as long as we can agree to disagree on some subjects...I've always liked your posts and your feisty ways
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