The Ballad of the Spotted Toad

[rabbitsfizz]

I have adjusted the "cart" so that it now looks like a white sulky- the shafts are now raised up to seat level, pity it is not strong enough to hold me!

We went out after I had worked him for twenty minutes- I am completely relaxed now, and that really helps, but I am going to be really tense when I put him to the proper cart again, I am not going to be able to help it. OH well.

We went out, we went down to look at the river, we declined to walk through it so we had to go over the rickety rackety bridge (the troll was asleep) then we went up to the bridleway and we trotted all the way down it and now I am DEAD!!

It was quite a long walk out for a little horse who has never left the field before except on a horsebox. He was BRILLIANT- you know I hate this horse so much, he is just laughing at me, all the time. Too smart for his own good. I went down to mend the electric fence as someone, (mentioning no names) had noticed the battery was low and had climbed over it, and there he was, on the wrong side of the fence, so I rushed at him shouting minor obscenities and he climbed over the dead wire and trotted up to me as I stood there waving a hammer at him. He pushed his nose into the hammer and licked it. What can you do???

Tomorrow, if I am relaxed, if the weather is good, if I think the time is right, he goes back in the cart.

 

[susanne]

Jane,

I love hearing your adventures in training with your little spotty boy -- he sure looks great! I totally empathize with health issues interfering with your training schedule...

Outlining your process is so valuable, showing how an experienced horseperson takes the time to cover all the bases, with minis as well as biggies.

Just out of curiosity, does he have any problem with the sound of the PVC pipes? Either when they bump or just with breeze passing over?

The reason I ask is that my trainer suggested filling the PVC with something, as she had otherwise calm horses spook at them -- they can make a creepy sound.

I agree that the most challenging horses are, in the end, the most enjoyable -- Mingus is absolute proof of that!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, even though it is nearly Halloween, we haven't had any spooky noises from the pipes yet- I never even thought of it!

He has enough on his plate, what with spooking at the nasty seats on the playing fields (well known to eat horses) and trying to convince me there was a bear in the clump of trees we passed- we went out in the "sulky" today, and he had to learn it all again as he had the cart to consider! He was right up on his toes and spooking at everything so I did not put him to the EE (I was considering doing it today) and I am glad I did not- I really, really need to get a proper whip, I do not have enough hind end control with the little flappy thing I have at the moment, and he knows it. Half the time he is just having a laugh at my expense. The last laugh will be mine, however, as I had him gelded so I could drive him, and drive him I shall!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, the day before yesterday we had a potential disaster!

He was on his toes all the time and finally lost it at the gate (no idea why the gate, he just took exception to it's being there!) He took off, I pulled him into a circle and he saw what I was doing, put his head against the reins and took the whole thing off round the field.

It was something to watch, I can tell you. There was absolutely nothing I could do except let him run himself out, which, after a couple of minutes that seemed like forever, he did. The little pipe cart stood up to it well, it was still there when he was ready to capitulate and I was able to catch him and drive him back round the field for a bit, til he calmed down.

All the time he was strutting up and down the fence, after the first panic, I thought, "Look at that stride, look at the length of it!I can't see him move when I am running along behind.

OK, I wish it had not happened and I am still not too sure how it did, but, Oh MY he can move.

Yesterday I gave him a day off while I took the cart apart and put it back together again in a slightly different order- more stable shafts- and today he was very up on his toes and dancing around- I think it may be time to accept he is going to need blinkers- I have never used them before, but, like a running martingale or a pelham bit, if they are needed then I guess I am going to be using them. I may try tomorrow.

He hates the wind, always has, and today was a little windy, but part of it is an excuse to act up- I am being a lot firmer with him now. Still need to get myself a proper whip!

 

[BannerBrat]

Well, the day before yesterday we had a potential disaster!

He was on his toes all the time and finally lost it at the gate (no idea why the gate, he just took exception to it's being there!) He took off, I pulled him into a circle and he saw what I was doing, put his head against the reins and took the whole thing off round the field.

It was something to watch, I can tell you. There was absolutely nothing I could do except let him run himself out, which, after a couple of minutes that seemed like forever, he did. The little pipe cart stood up to it well, it was still there when he was ready to capitulate and I was able to catch him and drive him back round the field for a bit, til he calmed down.

All the time he was strutting up and down the fence, after the first panic, I thought, "Look at that stride, look at the length of it!I can't see him move when I am running along behind.

OK, I wish it had not happened and I am still not too sure how it did, but, Oh MY he can move.

Yesterday I gave him a day off while I took the cart apart and put it back together again in a slightly different order- more stable shafts- and today he was very up on his toes and dancing around- I think it may be time to accept he is going to need blinkers- I have never used them before, but, like a running martingale or a pelham bit, if they are needed then I guess I am going to be using them. I may try tomorrow.

He hates the wind, always has, and today was a little windy, but part of it is an excuse to act up- I am being a lot firmer with him now. Still need to get myself a proper whip!

LOL, I have really enjoyed reading your saga. May I remind you there is a lot to be said for having a 'This is your job, it's not a big deal, shut up and listen for a minute.' attitude. I listen to my horses, but they also listen to me.

Good luck, be careful, and keep updating!

 

[shelterwood]

Well, I can add my own little adventure to this story, might make you feel better to hear about someone else's TOAD!! I was driving my 2 year old mare, who has only been hitched a few times, around our property last weekend. She is a stinker, with the attitude of steely defiance at times, although mostly out of lack of confidence I am finding. She does not express her low self esteem through typical outward methods like spooking, fidgeting, or fussing. She simply lets it build and then blows apparently. Well, I had her hitched and did a short bit of ground driving behind the cart to check harness fit and her overall attitude (also had ground driven her for a bit without cart). She was going fine for a few passes, so i got in the cart. Now if you all remember my pics of my cart, it is a little blue sulky style cart, not ideal, I know, for training, but its what I have. So, I learned the danger of a training cart which requires one to climb in between green horse and cart! I got settled and asked for a walk-up, which she ignored. I touched her mouth slightly, just took up some slack to get her attention, and asked for a walk-up again as well as a turn/give to the left. Well, apparently this was too much, and she half-reared and went right, unseating me slightly, dragged me through some brush, them hopped and jumper her way a bit, then backed us into the electric fence of the pasture! Luckily, the shafts on this cart are wooden, but the frame of the seat is metal, so I could feel the fence. At this point I firmly WHOAed her, told her to stand, which she did, and was able to climb out of my dangerous place between her freaking out self and the cart. Needless to say, I was lucky I kept my feet and had my helmet on. Well, we are CLEARLY backing up in our training to just ground driving. I plan on hitching her again just once before winter so she has a positive experience, but that's it. Just ground work until she matures and gets some more experience. And this is a horse who has been doing ground work since this last spring! So, it's not just your TOAD rabittsfizz, and after reading another thread on the forum before this one, I feel it's important to post our mistakes so people can learn that this is a dangerous pursuit we undertake even with these little, tolerant critters. Slow and steady wins the race, and I in no way want to ruin this little horse as she is a little tank and will be a fabulous trail driving pony.

 

[MiLo Minis]

This is precisely why I do very little grounddriving with the cart hitched to the horse. In Jane's case she had NO opportunity to stop the horse because he left her behind. In Shelterwood's case she did have opportunity to stop the horse before anything really bad happened because she was in the cart and WITH the horse. I do like an easy entry for training though

Makes my life so much less dangerous!

Shelterwood: I would NOT leave it for any length of time to hitch your horse again IF you do want her to drive. If you leave this bad experience for her to think on she will only be worse the next time. You need to get back on that cart and try again. IF you aren't confidant enough to do that without being a nervous wreck it is time for you to seek the help of a professional trainer.

Jane: Ditto the above for you as well. It is time you put a proper cart to Toad and get in and drive. There is very little chance to stop a bolting horse when you are on the ground. That is the reason the ADS has made the ruling that when a horse is hitched there MUST be someone in the driver's seat. What horse is the most likely to bolt? One that is very green and in early stages of training. Once a horse knows how to drive via grounddriving and it is time to introduce the cart the quicker you get in the seat the better!

For both of you: (and anyone else whose horse has had a similar experience) Now that your horses have had a bad experience with the cart they are going to be MUCH more nervous about their next experience with a cart. I would advise you BOTH to seek the help of a trainer, friend or neighbour while re-introducing the cart. Have them hold onto a sturdy leadrope or lungeline attached to a sturdy halter under the driving bridle. They are not there to lead the horse but to help you stop him preventing injury to yourself or the horse, if it is necessary. Have them walk along behind and off to the side with a loose lead until they are called into service should your horse bolt again.

 

[shelterwood]

Lori,

Thanks for the reply! I actually was just out today with a friend and knowledgeable horse person and ground drove and then hitched my mare (my thoughts and my friends thoughts echoed yours, that the sooner the better to avoid bigger problems). She did well, a little jumpy at first about the breeching, so I wonder if I didn't notice that either the breeching rode up or a rein got under there, so I did a lot of desensitizing while on the ground first. But the actual drive went well. She was attentive, we kept it short, about 15 minutes, and praised and praised her.

I appreciate the advice that ground driving with a cart is not a good idea. I actually do very little of this. I tend to drive my mares up a few steps to bring them into the cart with draught, check fit, then get in the cart.

Sorry rabbitsfizz, I hijacked your thread!! Back to the TOAD.....

Katie

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Not at all I like hearing other peoples messes!!

Lori, I drove him again straight away, gave him the day off the next day as I was adjusting the cart, then put him back in yesterday and today. Today he actually settled down but there is NO way I am getting in a cart behind him yet! Sorry.

When he blows he blows- up out down, sideways, you name it he goes, if you did stop him he would just go berserk. I have to go back over the basics with him, seriously, and concentrate on what he is worst at, which is standing still. He hates it. He hates standing when he is not hitched, but hitched up he trots on the spot (I have a miniature Paso!) The second time he blew up I was ready for him and did pull him round in a circle- there was NO way I could hold him, and unless he was anchored to my friends Land Rover (and believe me I am thinking about it) I do not think anyone could hold him, he was just going to go!

I drove him out round the playing fields (windy again today) and he bounced the whole way.

I have to find a closed bridle- I do not actually own one, I find, which is a bit silly, and although I hoped to drive him open, I do not think that is going to happen.

I alwasy said if I met a horse that actually needs blinkers I would put them on, so, on they go!!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

...there is NO way I am getting in a cart behind him yet! Sorry. When he blows he blows- up out down, sideways, you name it he goes, if you did stop him he would just go berserk. I have to go back over the basics with him, seriously, and concentrate on what he is worst at, which is standing still.

I think this is very wise. There are definitely times where a firm hand is all that's needed to get them to knock off the nonsense, but at some point you have to ask "is this worth getting both of us hurt?" Go back to basics. Instill "Whoa." Instill (as you've already begun to) "When I say knock it off or trust me, you need to do so." And insist on calm, brain-fully-engaged acceptance of each step before moving on to the next one. Yes, he needs to get over the silliness, but at the same time it wouldn't hurt him to have a lot more hours in the training shafts so he has plenty of positive experiences to outweigh the negative. He's still a teenager mentally! Give him time to grow up and think things over and a reason to decide life is more fun when between the shafts. Find what motivates him and use it.

I have to find a closed bridle- I do not actually own one, I find, which is a bit silly, and although I hoped to drive him open, I do not think that is going to happen. I alwasy said if I met a horse that actually needs blinkers I would put them on, so, on they go!!

That's what blinkers are there for- to save them from obsessing over and worrying about things that don't concern them. It's great that many horses go well without them and like it, but it's hardly animal abuse to block their view rearwards so they can relax if that's what they need. I'm sure he'll be much happier once he doesn't have to worry about that scary tall thing!

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Teenager....yeah, that's him. Won't get out of bed except to eat and won't clean his room. Sees no reason at all why he should do any work since he has not had to up to date.

Can't find the flipping closed bridle anywhere so he is just going to have to get a grip til I can dig one up!

 

[Sue_C.]

Teenager....yeah, that's him. Won't get out of bed except to eat and won't clean his room. Sees no reason at all why he should do any work since he has not had to up to date.

Can't find the flipping closed bridle anywhere so he is just going to have to get a grip til I can dig one up!

Try just adding a set of halter fluffies as "kant see backs" for now, and see how that works. I generally do this anyways as a half-way measure before going to the full bridle.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK, I finally found a closed bridle- it is not up to much but I can make it work til I get something better. I expected at least a bit of balking but I swear I heard him sigh with relief!

He was still a bit naughty and I was very, very firm this time, right form the start. It is not only DC who needs to get their confidence back- I was rattled too. The horse can never see what might have happened, it only ever sees what did happen- and then it is often forgotten in a few minutes. I saw DC spread over three fields and a main road, he just saw an annoying white thing bouncing along behind him!

So, we have a real resistance to turning to the right, which I had not noticed before, and a real attitude when asked to stop. He has mouth like silk- I do not even touch the rein, just apply pressure- it's more like riding, but I am having trouble with the rear end now the front is engaged!

I really really need to buy a proper driving whip, the one I am using does not have a proper lash on it.

I also need to remember to tell him what to do and to remember he cannot see behind him so I have to think all the manoeuvring for him.

Aah well, I can at least see us being in the proper cart before too long, now.

Just as well as my legs are not working properly after all that exercise and my back is killing me.

The Toad looks quite trim, though!

 

[Sue_C.]

, but I am having trouble with the rear end now the front is engaged

Now, I have noticed that you have your reins through the turrets, and would like to suggest something that is a bit different, and gives you that control of the hind end that you need. this is the same way that I trained my riding horses as well, only I tied the stirrups together at the girth, and ran the long reins through them.

I too do a lot of walking behind my greenies, but also do a lot of long-reining around me...that gives me a break from all that walking while still keeping the horse at work.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Thanks Sue, for the input, but the trouble I am having is in the cart, not just ground driving- the difference I see is especially in the cart- I think he knows I am more sensitive then, and he calls me on it!

He will turn to the left no problem, even with the shafts there, and he will engage quite well, but when I ask for right he is all on his toes and resistive. I do have an extra set of reins (or two

) I could try one set through the terrets and one set loose- what do you think??

 

[MiLo Minis]

He will turn to the left no problem, even with the shafts there, and he will engage quite well, but when I ask for right he is all on his toes and resistive.

Did you have his teeth done before starting to drive him? Did he injure his mouth at all the other day when he was running loose with the "cart" hitched? Did he get banged or poked with the cart on the right side when he was running loose? Any of those things could be causing trouble now as you said you didn't notice it earlier.

Are you asking for BIG wide sweeping turns to either side? All horses "bend" or at least turn and appear to bend more easily to the left when they are green than they do to the right. At this stage of training all your turns should be quite large and loose - he should barely feel the shafts on his sides.

You can use your voice to encourage him to move on and get his rear end engaged but you also need to have that "proper" whip - it can also be a long whippy stick that you can flick him with. Any willow near by?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

As far as I can ascertain there was no damage to his mouth during the runaway- the reins were over the back of the cart (no idea how- pure luck!)

Teeth done, wolf teeth removed, about six months ago.

I ask for the turns described, I get immediate hyper response or resistance on his right side, so we can get "crabby" little turns, that I am trying to avoid by tricking him into thinking we are going to turn left and then turning right, does that make any sense at all?

It is almost all done by thought transference- he is SO light mouthed it is not true- this is one of the problems with his halt- he comes to a halt easily but when I ask for a strong stand he dances behind the bit (this is when I miss a proper whip most!) and will even half rear. At the moment I am calling his bluff and pushing him up back into the bit. I think we just need a lot more work- the amount I can do is still limited and is not going to get any better (I have ME) I am going to try round penning him first and doing some stretches- let's work on the whole horse!. If nothing else I shall lose some weight and he is going to be so flipping fit.

I had a good time today, it was relaxed and he more or less behaved- I am trying to get some wire into the blinker holders as we speak, they were rubbing his eyes and I do not need him distracted by something else right now, he has enough excuses.

 

[Sue_C.]

The black in the picture had a problem with the bit, and I found that as soon as I wrapped it in latex (bit wrap) that fixed the problem. He simply has very sensitive bars, but he eventually accepted an unwrapped bit in time.

Another I was training, started out well, but developed a resistance to one side, much the same as you lil guy. It took me a couple of days to find the problem, but he had one canine coming in; totally unexpected at his age. Again, I wrapped the bit and was careful not to bump that side, and as soon as the tooth broke the surface, he was fine.

Does your guy show a similar resistance when driven with the halter, as with the bridle?

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I'm hesitant to offer advice to someone with so many more years behind a horse than I have but I always try to make the turn make some logical sense to the horse. I prefer to use a line of posts but have used trees, cones and simply trails that have curves and bends. Then when I ask my horse to turn they can see the 'why' of it and I find they begin to also translate how much turn I need by the amount of rein cue combined with the obstacle they are turning around/past. Just a thought.

 

[Sue_C.]

I'm hesitant to offer advice to someone with so many more years behind a horse than I have but I always try to make the turn make some logical sense to the horse. I prefer to use a line of posts but have used trees, cones and simply trails that have curves and bends. Then when I ask my horse to turn they can see the 'why' of it and I find they begin to also translate how much turn I need by the amount of rein cue combined with the obstacle they are turning around/past. Just a thought.

Yes, I too have found that just going out and "playing" rather than "working" with them helps a lot if it really is a mind-resistance rather then a physical one.