To dock or not to dock a pups tail

[Ashley]

I have a cocker and JRT. I couldnt imagine them with a tail. I agree with Jenn on the cocker wag. It would just look funny with a tail back there. My dog always has her whole back end going when she is excited or happy.

I do feel Dews should be done. My aunt has 2 Great Pyrenees. Neither had there dews removed. ONe had to go in as a adult and get them taken off as they kept getting infected. THe second, is awaiting her time to go in as she is haveing the same problem.

 

[Boinky]

Fiona,

boy this is a topic i've been thinking hard on lately!!!! As you know, i have Australian Shepherds. I am so on the fence. I LOVE that aussies do not have tails. I love that i can take my aussie service dog into a store and never have to worry about it knocking something over, being stepped on, run over by a shopping cart ect! the list is so long. I love that they don't ever get their tails shut in car doors. It's not all for looks in my case..though i do think an aussie wouln't look right with a tail..they would just look like a border collie! lol. also i'm not so sure i'd want to groom a aussie tail..I have seen photo's of Aussies in Europe and they all have long bushy tails.. that's alot of grooming and i CRINGE to think of the burs, matts and stickers that could get into a flagging tail. it's bad enough when mine get into burs on their body!

With aussies the breed standard is that they cannot be over 4" long at maturity. I think they were partially docked due to very good reasons (not getting shut in gaits while working, stepped on by cattle or other livestock, and not getting burrs and other messes in their tail). Wile the other part was that Aussies can have natural bobbed tails. it was a feature that really stood out to people "the little blue dogs with bobbed tails". Hence the standard evolved.

My Stud Boinky has produced a huge percentage of natural bobbed tails even when crossed to lines with no history of NBT's. Usually at least half of every litter he's produced has been NBT to some extent varying from 1/2 lenght, nearly full lenght and some very short ones. Unfortunatly many Natural bobbs have crooked tails and many people want to eliminate that appearance and i guess the crookedness can actually cause some problems... I also had a couple in my litters that actually had very sharp little ends on their tails that litterally poked out of the skin.. My shortest pup yet had that problem. i'd have just left him NBT but i was worried the sharp bone would be a problem and the vet agreed when docking.

Now onto my story about docking now that i got so sidetracked!!! LOL

I really have a hard time with the docking.. I've had all three litters done by the same vet office. the first two was done by the very old doctor there and the most recent was done by another one. They "freeze" the tails and dew claws before doing them but in some ways i think that makes it worse. the poor little puppies start screaming just having the numbing shots!! then they shave the tails where they are going to dock. The older vet always used a pair of scissors and cut off the dew claws but it hink he always did them after docking the tail so i'm not sure if that made a differnce..but they would cry a little with the dew claws..but overall i didn't feel they were a big deal nor did i feel they were in horrible pain from that.. The younger vet this time took the dew claws with a set of kelly clamps and would do a sharp twist and pull at the same time..the dew claws popped right off and the pups barely made a peep and went right back to sleep while the others got done. it seemed fast and relatively painless. The tails however are traumatizing to me. I'm not a squimish person but it's really bothered me. They have this little tool that looks like..oh i don't know a set of pliers almost that have a sharp knife blade on it that has a V so that when it cuts it cuts the bone back and leaves a flap of skin on both sides that can be sutured over the bone. I think their tool was dull because they'd cut...then PULL the tail off. If it just cut cleanly and the tail just "chopped" and fell off it wouldn't bother me so much i don't think. the poor little pups scream and will cry all night after that.

I also learned after the first time not to bring the mother dog in while having it done. it very much upsets them to hear them cry at all (even if not in pain).

You know i know it hurts..but i also know from experience that pain is short lasting...when your a baby you dont remember the pain and there has never been any problems to my knowlege from actually docking a tail later in life (other than for if i'ts done wrong). I guess i'm not really against it.. and for me an aussie is better off NOT having a tail... but i really shouldn't go in while it's being done! LOL I was having a discussion with my parents the other day that perhaps i should try to breed towards all Natural bobbed tails and getting them as short as the breed standard and then i wouldn't have to dock! lol

 

[strass]

Circumcision...now there's a CRUEL practice.

Thing is, I was just a baby when it was done and have no memory of it whatsoever. Hence, it has not left me emotionally scarred but to think of what it would be like to have it done now.

I believe that bobbing a tail would be similar in nature, only it's not needed for anything while it's healing....ergo it's cleaner.

Now, my Rot is a guard for my horses. A tail would be one more thing that an offending canine could grab in a scuffle. As previously mentioned, a tail is also something to get in the way of gates and such. My dog often sleeps next to a horse and a tail could cause a lot of pain for a dog if it kept getting stepped on.

On the other hand, the natural movement of ears is an important funtional thing which I would not mess with on a working dog.

 

[Happy Valley]

I don't agree with tail docking as I see no use for it. It is painful for the puppies, even though some will say it isn't, they cry terribly when the hemostats are clamped on and their tails twisted off. Maybe they don't remember it, but the mom understands that her babies are different and I think she understands that they are in pain.

I can understand dewclaw removal, as that serves a purpose, but I think tails and ears should be left alone unless there is a good reason (not financial or aesthetic) to do it.

 

[keeperofthehorses]

I personally don't have a problem with proper tail docking being done before 4 or 5 days of age. I don't like overly short tails though, and wish more folks would leave a full two or three bones. I don't like seeing them removed on an older pup (usually when spayed/neutered) because they've become accustomed to them, there is more pain, and healing can be difficult.

I've got to say though, some of the methods I've read here aren't what I would consider proper, even if done by a vet. There should be no bloody mangled mess and hemostats and twisting is never what I've seen. There's a special tool, sort of resembles large dog nail clippers just for this. All the docking and dewclaw removals I've seen have been closed with skin glue and you couldn't even tell that something had been done. The pups yip during the procedure, but calm right down and resume nursing immediately afterward.

I have seen some real disasters caused by people thinking they can do their own pups (or kittens), rather than spend the money to have a vet do it.

Dewclaws are a toss up to me. I think some breeds look much cleaner with them removed, and they are a potential nuisance and can easily get ripped off if not tightly attached. I've always left them on my terriers (unless a double popped up) because supposedly they use them in their underground endeavors. I left them on my Goldens and wish I had not, because they can get snagged in heavy brush (or fishing line, any number of things) when hunting.

Ear cropping? No way. I've worked for several vet hospitals that specialized in cropping and did a good job, but it just turns my stomach, especially with the longer eared breeds like Danes and Dobies.

 

[tigeresss]

Unless you plan on doing high level showing I deffinetly would say do not dock their tails. So many breeders agonize over docking tails and cropping ears and the only reason they do it is because they plan to have their puppies go into very high level dog shows. So it really depends on the type of dogs your breeding, as in are you breeding show dogs to go into the ring or just family type dogs etc. But like Rabbitfizz said there are many breeds that are docked which don't have to be according to the standard. Anyway off to bed for me!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Pyraneans are REQUIRED to have dewclaws, Ashley, double ones of the back, it is a very strict breed standard requirement, since earlier we were talking about breeding to "standards".

Cocker's still do the whole wiggle with a tail- my Cocker cross Bichon has a full Cocker tail and is a demon with it!!

Her mother- (Crufts Ch blue Roan Bitch) was docked but I persuaded her owner to leave the tails on the pups. People never even noticed.

OE sheepdogs have exactly the same rolling gait with a full tail, the gait is caused by the length of the hind legs, not by the lack of tail, (- I have heard EVERY excuse in the book, sorry- ) Ozzie's- well, sorry but, if they look like collies if you leave the tail on, you are breeding collies, and docking them!!

I have seen Ozzie's with full tails and they looked like Ozzie's with full tails!

There is a natural dock line in Ozzie's, OES, and Pembroke Welsh Corgis- I have NO idea where it came from, as close relatives do not have it ie the Beardie does not have it, none of the breeds known to have made up the oz has it and Cardigan Corgis do not have it. I can only imagine it was not encouraged in the other breeds and was encouraged in the breeds that docked.

Anyone who grabs hold of a Rottweilers tail when it is angry would find out exactly why it is not necessary to dock Rottweiler- who were docked as a sign of ownership when used as droving dogs- it has NOTHING to do with guarding. Bouviers were docked for the same reason.

 

[lvponies]

I had one litter of JRT's before I had the mom & dad fixed. I called my vet to get the puppies tails docked and dew claws removed and was told that they don't do "cosmetic" surgery. Some friends of mine also bred JRT's and they offered to come over and help me dock the tails & remove the dew claws. Their help ended up them doing the work and me observing!! It really wasn't a big deal for the puppies. A little whining, a little wiggling and they were fine. We used a styptic (sp?) powder and a liquid band aid to stop the bleeding so there was very little blood. I believe that dogs that are "normally" seen with their tails docked should be done. I would not want a JRT with a long tail. That's just not their "look". I also don't feel that they would look like a purebred dog with a long tail. JMO.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Ah Fiona, you'll do what feels right for you I know. How are the lil rascals anyways? I'm with our Rabbit on this one. Can't wait to see the outcome. Many Jacks have tails here.

 

[capall beag]

THANK YOU FOR ALL THE REPLIES!

I read them all, I went from completely decided to NO I won't do it!! then I would read some more and think well that is a valid point!!

My hubby said "Oh, no leave the tail natural like it is",.... I said our Jrt's have docked tails they are not natural!! He looked confused, he thought they were born with a short tail, he is not a dog person

I am going to discuss it with my vet, a fairly new vet, who I like and trust and her assistant is a friend of mine. They come to my house and do all my vet care here so at least I would not have to take the pups to the vet. I will ask her opinion too.

Definately, are valid points on both sides. I will say that I think if done correctly, docking of the tails should be quick and clean and although painful not ongoing.

As usual, you have all been most helpful

 

[billiethekid40]

Undocking

Here is a page that shows photos of undocked dogs of many different breeds that are supposed to be docked. I have NOT read the site, so I cannot say if I agree with their message or not, but it was the only site I could find showing photos of undocked dogs. I prefer the look of a jack russel WITH a tail! And of all the breeds, I have yet to find one that I think looks funny or not right with their tail! In fact, I like the look of the cocker and the corgi with tails too!

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

Consider me "pro" tail too. Breed standard or not, I think tails are wonderful.

The only reason I'd advocate removing dew claws is because of the repeated pain a dog can have by catching them on things.

 

[Marion]

When we got my Boxer, her tail was docked. She is an inside dog so that really helped with the knocking things off the furniture. We got a Pit Bull dog with her tail, but my husband wanted it gone because she is in the house all the time due to her blindness. We also had her dew claws removed because she wraps her front legs around you and I ended up with some pretty bad cuts. Also when she would wag her tail it would leave welts on my arms and legs that was the main reason that we had it removed.

Now my small dog is not docked nor are the outside dogs.

I will never have their ears done again. We had a Boxer that had his ears done and he got sunburned in them. It was the most horrible experience I had every had. All my dogs from that point on have had their natural ears.

Also another consideration for having her tail docked was being a Pitt Bull if anyone stole her they can not fight her without her tail. We also had her fixed for the same reason. No one will want to steal her now that she is useless to them. But we love her all the more.

 

[1 is not enough]

Well a very interesting topic. We have two JRT's, our adult female was already docked when we went to pick her out as a puppy. I would not have docked her had it been my choice. We had a litter in the fall and agonized over the decision "to dock or not". Well I didn't, and have not regretted it. We still have one female puppy "Squeak", she just has not sold yet

guess she will just have to stay here

.

Karen

 

[rabbitsfizz]

That's a link to the ADA- There's my Dobe!!!

Doesn't she look handsome!!!

Also undocked OES.

Pauline's (Who runs it) is a good friend of mine, I've been a member from the start.

 

[minisaremighty]

Undocking
Here is a page that shows photos of undocked dogs of many different breeds that are supposed to be docked.

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Thanks for that link Melanie. Very interesting. I found that I liked the looks of a tail on all of them except the schnauzer. However, that could be because the schnauzers in the photo were not groomed the way I'm used to them being groomed. I've had docked and undocked on breeds with the standard as docked. Can't say what I believe is the thing to do.

When we got our minpin, he came from a litter which had one pup pre-sold. The owner of that pup requested he not have his tail docked. He didn't. He looked a little different when I picked up my pup, but it wasn't all that noticeable at that young age. I heard from the breeder that when he was about one year old, his owner accidentally stepped on his fragile tail and severely broke it to the point where the vet felt there was no option but to remove it.

Poor little guy! I guess their tails are very thin, but I never saw it when he was older, just a baby. Anyhow, the breeder will dock all tails now on.

 

[runamuk]

Well I am not a fan of tails...unless they curl up over the back.....the german shepherd drives me nuts constantly knocking stuff off tables, chairs, smacking me in the legs........for me it has nothing to do with looks it has to do with I do not like big long whacking tails......GSD, labs, goldens, etc... all come to mind as dogs who should be docked

Now I have gone with my friends poodle pups 2 litters now and out of those 2 litters only 1 pup ever even squeaked....there was no blood and the poodles dew claws are often missing or some are missing ......the vet tech who does them uses a little pair of scissors and they just snip off, the tails get one bitty stitch...no fuss no muss and never done older than 3 days in fact I believe the second litter wasn't even 24 hrs old........never has there been any twisting or pulling or crushing or ..ick.....

Personally I love the bob tail on my aussie I wish they came that way naturally but I am sure I would not be as happy if that dog had a big long tail to go with his big wiggly butt............

I am not a fan of doing ears however, have seen too many botched jobs and the pain it causes.......

 

[tigeresss]

Wow I can't believe people actually feel the need to dock tails just so they don't knock things off of the table...I find that very disheartening and very selfish. That's deffinetly the most rediculous thing I've heard in awhile.

 

[mininik]

"Wow I can't believe people actually feel the need to dock tails just so they don't knock things off of the table..."

Sad, isn't it? The other common excuse that the tails of some breeds (such as Poodles) are too long, thin and fragile so they must be docked for safety is also silly. I guess people with that point of view have never seen an Italian Greyhound, Whippet, Greyhound, etc. If in fact their tails are too long, thin and fragile isn't that "our" fault for breeding them that way?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Min Pins over here are often not docked- I think that was just an unlucky happening that could happen in any breed- Italian Greyhounds are so fragile you would think thay would break just looking at them, yet, they are not docked. The breeds most likely to injure their tails are Staffs (hire them out to strip wallpaper!!) and Greyhounds, yet, they aren't docked.

Anyone thinking removing the tail from a Boxer, for example , will terminate it's tendency to damage things lives in a world that clearly does not understand Boxers- their goal in life is to remove all small valuable articles left below the "water line"

In their time my Dobes have damaged just about every part of their bodies except their dewclaws and their tails- and believe me, they have hunted some really rough cover in their time- brambles, rose bushes Black thorn, you name it. Never ripped a tail. Yet, apparently, if a GSP were to look at such cover it would rip it's tail to shreds, in spite of the fact that it is actually only entering the cover to retrieve dead game, not shrieking through it at 30mph in hot pursuit of a rabbit!!

Basically, people will go to any ends to justify a look to which they have become accustomed.

Some of us preferr to start the customs.